Peerless HDS 810921 Tweeters (Danish) For Sale - Canuck Audio Mart
A pair of the Mk6 Tweeters for sale on canuckaudiomart for those who need them. $100 Canadian, wish I had not already bought them!
This is not my ad and I am not associated with the seller.
A pair of the Mk6 Tweeters for sale on canuckaudiomart for those who need them. $100 Canadian, wish I had not already bought them!
This is not my ad and I am not associated with the seller.
Joe, have you started a waiting list for the board/waveguide/inductors? Is there another thread for that? Some people here seem to be getting in line.
I would think that 2 Metres would be as close as I would want to listen to it, but the array focuses around 1.6M, so listening height becomes more critical the closer you get, being the tweeter, but 15-20 degrees off axis.
The PCB has an embarrassing problem, it is too large to get through the 146mm driver hole and get inside, so I am kicking myself, so it is only suitable for external crossovers.
Yes, I will put something together, but the new PCB are about to be ordered and have to wait till I can get them.
Right now I am working on the Hamlet Mk-6 drawings, that takes precedence as it means that boxes can be started.
Last edited:
Thanks, is this for the Elsinore as well as the Hamlet? Would the Elsinores overload a room with ~14sqm?
Are there any acoustic drawbacks to placing the drivers closer together for aesthetic reasons?
I won’t speak for Joe, but i would think getting the drivers as close together as possible. Even notchig out the waveguide to gain closeness. The closer the XO can be placed to teh equivalent quarter wavelength the better.
Hamlet looks relly strange to me.
dave
Hamlet looks relly strange to me.
dave
Two things that I noticed, the crossover design is likely very specific to the driver spacing. Joe has put an immense amount of effort into the crossover design.
I'm sure they're optimized but is there really a drawback to squeeze the drivers closer together?
I don't know the answer to that. There are so many details to a design that when I hear questions like this, the answer is something new that I didn't even know was a design charactoristic. Your question is good, hopefully Joe will chime in.
I was building a custom subwoofer box for my truck a couple years ago, and it had to be really precise, because I was putting it under the folding back seat. I was almost done, and I was cutting the baffle last. I should have quit and finished the next day, because I had gotten really tired, and I was having a hard time concentrating, I didn't have any drawings other than rough sketches I had made and I proceeded to cut that thing wrong like 4 or 5 times, to the point I thought I was going to run out of MDF. Finally got it though. I remember thinking, "I'm glad no one was here to make fun of me, cause I would have never heard the end of that and I had no defense."
It's pretty damn funny now though, but not at the time!
It is not the first time this has come up. Yes, I agree that closer spacing of the drivers is in itself not a bad idea, but alas that is not the only consideration.
Now I understand that this has been brought up here in a non-critical and friendly way. Yes, I would have liked closer spacing, but what are some of the other considerations? Boy, where do I start? I will give it a go and see if it makes sense to you guys, that there are so many elements that have to be juggled.
As noted, the Hamlet uses the same spacing as the Elsinores:
Please don't take that 1000mm literally, rather this is only to demonstrate that closer distances create a more acute (smaller) radius. But in reality, this is more about the arrival time, not so much about finding the so-called "acoustic centre" of the driver, which can change with frequency, but the time domain where the impulse (or step response) does not lie.
If we get this right, we will get full vector summing at the crossover. This is a fancy way of saying that at the crossover sums a full 6dB at the crossover.
When the tweeter goes negative, its output precedes the combined positive output of both drivers, there is no interference. If the tweeter had infinite rise time all of its output would be all positive, so the tweeter is inverting the electrical phase and that is why in the crossover you see that the tweeter has the phase reversed - the tweeter is an inverter.
I believe that looking at the Lipinski 707 design, measured by John Atkinson in Stereophile, that Andrew Lipinski must have had a similar understanding of things, note there are some striking similarities:
How this combined response is made up, John Atkinson discovered this:
Finally, here is a picture of the L707 and yes, that felt does act to a degree as a waveguide (JA's measurements indicate that), but note also the spacing.
Yes, the similarity here is striking and I don't think this is a coincidence. I believe Andrew Lipinski knew exactly what he was doing and also we, both of us, came to this configuration for the same reasons. Except at that time I was doing it with the Elsinores and did not change it when it came to the Hamlets.
Read the complete review in Stereophile online, just Google it, and read the measurements too.
Yes, Hamlet makes use of the Elsinores spacing and the same waveguide, but what if it could it be tweaked to have closer spacing maybe just a little bit? For a start, the waveguide would need to be redesigned, it would need to be shallower and then some critical benefits would be lost there. I know for a fact that the waveguide we use is superior to the Lipinski felt arrangement. The payoff is lower distortion than the L707.
Summing up: The Hamlets are the same as the Elsinores in most respects, just without the bottom drivers, and that the drivers are now in parallel and become 4 Ohm. Adjust the new crossover accordingly and we have got something that can be used as a stereo speaker as well as centre-channel.
PS: If you cut out part of the tweeter's flange and got it closer to the main (midrange) driver, the angle of radiation offset which is perpendicular, means the summed response is the tilted much further down when the tweeter is above the main driver. This becomes unworkable with low order crossovers but can be overcome with 4th order steep L-R crossovers. But I don't like the sound of those crossovers.
PPS: A lot to be said in favour of coaxials, Tannoys' idea especially, attempting to share that "acoustic centre" is near ideal.
Now I understand that this has been brought up here in a non-critical and friendly way. Yes, I would have liked closer spacing, but what are some of the other considerations? Boy, where do I start? I will give it a go and see if it makes sense to you guys, that there are so many elements that have to be juggled.
As noted, the Hamlet uses the same spacing as the Elsinores:
Please don't take that 1000mm literally, rather this is only to demonstrate that closer distances create a more acute (smaller) radius. But in reality, this is more about the arrival time, not so much about finding the so-called "acoustic centre" of the driver, which can change with frequency, but the time domain where the impulse (or step response) does not lie.
If we get this right, we will get full vector summing at the crossover. This is a fancy way of saying that at the crossover sums a full 6dB at the crossover.
When the tweeter goes negative, its output precedes the combined positive output of both drivers, there is no interference. If the tweeter had infinite rise time all of its output would be all positive, so the tweeter is inverting the electrical phase and that is why in the crossover you see that the tweeter has the phase reversed - the tweeter is an inverter.
I believe that looking at the Lipinski 707 design, measured by John Atkinson in Stereophile, that Andrew Lipinski must have had a similar understanding of things, note there are some striking similarities:
How this combined response is made up, John Atkinson discovered this:
Finally, here is a picture of the L707 and yes, that felt does act to a degree as a waveguide (JA's measurements indicate that), but note also the spacing.
Yes, the similarity here is striking and I don't think this is a coincidence. I believe Andrew Lipinski knew exactly what he was doing and also we, both of us, came to this configuration for the same reasons. Except at that time I was doing it with the Elsinores and did not change it when it came to the Hamlets.
Read the complete review in Stereophile online, just Google it, and read the measurements too.
Yes, Hamlet makes use of the Elsinores spacing and the same waveguide, but what if it could it be tweaked to have closer spacing maybe just a little bit? For a start, the waveguide would need to be redesigned, it would need to be shallower and then some critical benefits would be lost there. I know for a fact that the waveguide we use is superior to the Lipinski felt arrangement. The payoff is lower distortion than the L707.
Summing up: The Hamlets are the same as the Elsinores in most respects, just without the bottom drivers, and that the drivers are now in parallel and become 4 Ohm. Adjust the new crossover accordingly and we have got something that can be used as a stereo speaker as well as centre-channel.
PS: If you cut out part of the tweeter's flange and got it closer to the main (midrange) driver, the angle of radiation offset which is perpendicular, means the summed response is the tilted much further down when the tweeter is above the main driver. This becomes unworkable with low order crossovers but can be overcome with 4th order steep L-R crossovers. But I don't like the sound of those crossovers.
PPS: A lot to be said in favour of coaxials, Tannoys' idea especially, attempting to share that "acoustic centre" is near ideal.
Last edited:
This is something to strive for Joe, and it's a two way street. Your post includes some hand-waving and other things.
Wow, I appreciate your in depth response! It is amazing the amount of thought and detail that you have put into these designs.
I have listened to a few high end coaxial speakers. They certainly have their own magic.
I have listened to a few high end coaxial speakers. They certainly have their own magic.
And it's even more amazing he's published this incredible design, twice. If the Hamlet's are even 80% as good as the Elsinores, well the saying "lightning doesn't strike the same place twice", well sometimes it does! Now if they are just as good with a little less bass response, then I'd say the genius is in the mind of the one who's created something this incredible, and made the design available for free.
I'll say this about the Hamlet's in regards to what i think would be a reasonable expectation.
I built and still use in my bedroom, Troels Gravenson's Nomex 164 design, which uses the same drivers as the earlier version of the Elsinores, but is a 2 1/2 way design. Without going into too much about why I decided to build the Elsinores, in short, I was so impressed with the Nomex's that I decided Joe's desing was worth the chance. I have a very large open floor living space, and I was looking for something to fill the space acoustically a little bit better.
The point is, I moved the Nomex's into my bedroom, which is a smaller room, but still with vaulted ceilings, and the bass response changed considerably. N ow i have a pair of subs in my living room so that never bothered me, but I have not missed a subwoofer in my bedroom in the slightest.
So my guess is, the Hamlet's will give the Elsinores a very nice run for the money!
I'll say this about the Hamlet's in regards to what i think would be a reasonable expectation.
I built and still use in my bedroom, Troels Gravenson's Nomex 164 design, which uses the same drivers as the earlier version of the Elsinores, but is a 2 1/2 way design. Without going into too much about why I decided to build the Elsinores, in short, I was so impressed with the Nomex's that I decided Joe's desing was worth the chance. I have a very large open floor living space, and I was looking for something to fill the space acoustically a little bit better.
The point is, I moved the Nomex's into my bedroom, which is a smaller room, but still with vaulted ceilings, and the bass response changed considerably. N ow i have a pair of subs in my living room so that never bothered me, but I have not missed a subwoofer in my bedroom in the slightest.
So my guess is, the Hamlet's will give the Elsinores a very nice run for the money!
I agree, even if someone doesn't build them, reading the thread is a real learning experience (Thank you Joe!). Although I haven't heard the Elsinores, I do understand that in a well designed cabinet with good drivers, it doesn't take much to get the air moving. I have heard surprisingly good bass from somewhat feeble looking contenders.
I built the Bordeaux by Speaker Design Works. I have been looking for something that is different from them for 2nd setup that I want to do in a another room. Swap speakers and components between the two setups etc...
I didn't know what hand-waving meant, so I scratched my head when I read it and just let it go, got far more stuff on my mind to be concerned about it. But let me give some more ammunition and see if I care: Right now, just got the phone call, that I have to take my son to the psychiatric hospital for another stay and I have 2 1/2 hours to get him there. Now there are things that put a different perspective on my life. There are those that have been head-hunting me because of something called the "Rasmussen Effect" years ago and I got accused of calling it after myself, when in fact I did not. Ken Newton decided to call it that, not knowing that he handed landed me in a pile of poop; then others who don't know the story, have scented a ready victim to boost their own egos. And so the malaise that is social media keeps it alive, such is life. Now that I am dealing with life matters that pales with that, please, don't anybody try to defend me, as good as their intentions may be. It just makes it worse. You cannot erase animosity.
The Hamlet drawings are almost ready to post here.
They are still grouped under the Elsinore banner, as they basically cut-down versions of them. It was always going to boil down to how much of the Elsinore qualities we could get out in the Hamlets? I am extremely pleased and hence also very confident that you guys building them will like them. I smile when I listen to them. 🙂
Re the PCB, yep! I blew it and it's embarrassing. 😱
The old are 185mm x 160mm and the new will be 185mm x 140mm.
The old ones can still be used for external crossovers or those who had a chamber underneath the Elsinores, which some have done and is OK with me, and it may help get the tweeter height right for some. But to make up for it, I will be ordering a batch of 50 as the extra twenty will make the cost per unit come down taking into account the others. It is what it is, so it may take between 3 weeks to a month and I will make them available, as well as the inductors which are perfect for the PCB and for the job.
Cheers, Joe
The Hamlet drawings are almost ready to post here.
They are still grouped under the Elsinore banner, as they basically cut-down versions of them. It was always going to boil down to how much of the Elsinore qualities we could get out in the Hamlets? I am extremely pleased and hence also very confident that you guys building them will like them. I smile when I listen to them. 🙂
Re the PCB, yep! I blew it and it's embarrassing. 😱
The old are 185mm x 160mm and the new will be 185mm x 140mm.
The old ones can still be used for external crossovers or those who had a chamber underneath the Elsinores, which some have done and is OK with me, and it may help get the tweeter height right for some. But to make up for it, I will be ordering a batch of 50 as the extra twenty will make the cost per unit come down taking into account the others. It is what it is, so it may take between 3 weeks to a month and I will make them available, as well as the inductors which are perfect for the PCB and for the job.
Cheers, Joe
Sorry to hear about your son Joe!
As an aside, will you be selling the PCBs that were too large? Want to make an external crossover box for my Elsinores and they would be great for my purposes.
As an aside, will you be selling the PCBs that were too large? Want to make an external crossover box for my Elsinores and they would be great for my purposes.