Definitely recommended. Don't go overboard with fancy components.
If 85.5mm is the inside diameter, use port length 80mm should get you close.
Not to ever take anything away from Joe, the old carpenters rule- If not 100% sure, make it a tad longer and test....
Hello again,
thanks for the answer. Now that I know exactly what the initial dimensions are, I will manufacture three lengths and then test them.
Best regards, Steff
thanks for the answer. Now that I know exactly what the initial dimensions are, I will manufacture three lengths and then test them.
Best regards, Steff
There is a little program that is called WinISD and it is great as a little utility to see what change the port makes in a relative sense. Since the box tuning is independent of the drivers used, you just set up the value of the port at 100mm and then change the diameter and length to match the tuning frequency. So with 100mm long vent and 87mm inner diameter, changing it to 83.5mm and get the same box tuning came to 88mm. I would go with that.
@ AudioFanMan, since we are mere mortals, if we all built a box and stuffed it there are bound to be unintended differences. Your suggestion is prudent.
Fb measurment questions and others..
After reading the last post by Speakerfan, I was curious about my Elsinore's. Its been some time since I tested the enclosure and in all honesty having only done it those few time (months back) I had to spend a little time re-learning how to do the test again.
My quick summation, disconnected crossover, keep tweeter disconnected, run test tones through amp (with minimum 100 Ohm resistor in series) Measure voltage with AC multi meter, plot voltage and frequency on graph, find saddle in between two humps...
Since I began this journey, somehow my bench now has a signal generator oscilloscope, calibrated USB mic etc lol.. (Yea, its a disease.. But Im glad to finally pursue it...)
Hopefully, someone can help me with the following questions...
1) I think I understand the function of the series resistor when using software, but could someone explain why its use is required ?
2) Why should we be using this resistor in series when we are feeding test tones and manually watching / recording voltage ?
3) Ideally, what is the peak to peak voltage we should use while sending test tones?
4) Reviewing my crossover layout, Im not sure if I made a mistake with my tweeter circuit. I figured I would never bi-amp and could alter later if I changed my mind.. That said I have only 1 input to the crossover (from the amp) and since my crossover is rather tall, had no concerns with cross talk between L3 and any other inductor so I ran a large (10 or 12 gauge) common through the crossover.. I have read since then that signals can run back through the wires (or something like that) and interfere with other things..
The attached pic shows how I laid out my crossover. I can fix reasonably easy, but would rather not tinker if there would be little to no benefit... Would anyone care to comment on my layout being an issue?
After reading the last post by Speakerfan, I was curious about my Elsinore's. Its been some time since I tested the enclosure and in all honesty having only done it those few time (months back) I had to spend a little time re-learning how to do the test again.
My quick summation, disconnected crossover, keep tweeter disconnected, run test tones through amp (with minimum 100 Ohm resistor in series) Measure voltage with AC multi meter, plot voltage and frequency on graph, find saddle in between two humps...
Since I began this journey, somehow my bench now has a signal generator oscilloscope, calibrated USB mic etc lol.. (Yea, its a disease.. But Im glad to finally pursue it...)
Hopefully, someone can help me with the following questions...
1) I think I understand the function of the series resistor when using software, but could someone explain why its use is required ?
2) Why should we be using this resistor in series when we are feeding test tones and manually watching / recording voltage ?
3) Ideally, what is the peak to peak voltage we should use while sending test tones?
4) Reviewing my crossover layout, Im not sure if I made a mistake with my tweeter circuit. I figured I would never bi-amp and could alter later if I changed my mind.. That said I have only 1 input to the crossover (from the amp) and since my crossover is rather tall, had no concerns with cross talk between L3 and any other inductor so I ran a large (10 or 12 gauge) common through the crossover.. I have read since then that signals can run back through the wires (or something like that) and interfere with other things..
The attached pic shows how I laid out my crossover. I can fix reasonably easy, but would rather not tinker if there would be little to no benefit... Would anyone care to comment on my layout being an issue?
Attachments
I have the Elsinores on 3" stands and I bring my VMPS Larger Sub in at 40 Hz and I find it works well. Haven't tried 30 Hz - but I can't, as 40 Hz is the lowest option available on my preamp. 60 Hz was too high.
Since the tuning port subject is resurfacing, I had a question. I've been talking to a builder who really likes what he sees in the Els design. He did have some questions about the port tuning. His impression when running it through his program is that the port should be 100mm ID and about by about 200mm long to achieve the tuning goal. What is he missing? Is the tuning done by testing a completed speaker or by programming based on box size? Rookie question I know....just curious.
I am not sure what he is meaning that the port ID should be 100mm and 200mm long? That would give you a tuning I would estimate around 28 Hertz and too low. Keep in mind that port ID 90mm, to get 28 Hertz tuning the port length would need to be:
28Hz: 100mm ID, 200mm L = Vent Mach 0.23
28Hz: 90mm ID, 150mm L = Vent Mach 0.30
Note that we don't need the vent to be so big, a smaller vent will also do, but the peak velocity will be higher in the 90mm ID versus 100mmID
But we want to be nearer 33 Hertz:
33Hz, 90mm ID, 91mm L = Vent Mach 0.26
Vent Mach estimate is based on 70 Watt peak. With lower power, it will be even lower, low is good. At 50 Watt it will be 0.22 and with the Elsinores, that will be VERY loud.
Generally, allowing for some minor variations that a 90mm OD PVC pipe, that 80-10mm will work fine. Perhaps choosing 90mm is not a bad choice/compromise.
The Elsinore alignment is fairly benign, especially compared to Butterworth. It is closer to a Bessel and hence it is quite tolerant, even to the output impedance of the amplifier. With current EQ applied, it is almost totally tolerant to almost any amp, whether solid-state or tube. Even a current source amplifier can be used, I have one here with a 270 Ohm output impedance.
See attachment below. There really is no such thing as damping factor here, but saying that can get you into a low of trouble.
Attachments
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I appreciate the confirmation. He had me confused. I have found ports that are 90mm ID and 85mm Long...I was going to extend them to get the recommended 100mm posted in the thread in various places, unless you think the 85 mm length will work.
It will work fine.
Just concentrate on the fill, because that works with the port. Line the front
half, mostly fill the rear, behind the Main Brace, but keep away from the port as per instructions. Do not use high density fill - and you will be right.
PS: There was a typo. "Generally, allowing for some minor variations that a 90mm OD PVC pipe, that 80-10mm will work fine." That should have read "80-100mm."
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This may be of help to others, it is well known that I use Jantzen Xover parts and I thought the following list could be useful. There are plenty of Jantzen parts suppliers out there, the following is from such one here in Australia SpeakerBug - this is the list below.
NOTE: This list is for the MFC version.
2 x Superior Z-Cap 1.8uF 001-0542 AUD $28.00 AUD $56.00
2 x P-Core 18mH 18AWG 000-5160 AUD $30.00 AUD $60.00
2 x Air-Core 1.8mH 21AWG 000-1466 AUD $10.00 AUD $20.00
2 x Air-Core 1mH 18AWG 000-1239 AUD $11.00 AUD $22.00
2 x P-Core 3.9mH 17AWG 000-5013 AUD $23.00 AUD $46.00
2 x Air-Core 0.1mH 18AWG 000-1234 AUD $5.50 AUD $11.00
They also have suitable 2R resistors, but they are not Jantzen:
2 x 5W MOX 2 Ohm 002-0289 AUD $1.50 10 AUD $3.00
Total: AUD $218.00
Additional Parts, this is from Jaycar Electronics:
4 x 33uF Bi-Polar @ AUD 3.65
6 x 100uF Bi-Polar @ AUD 7.65
There are some additional resistors, they are used in the current EQ parts, so use 10 Watt & 5 Watt minimum as per the Xover list below.
Standard Wirewound Resistors.
These are available pretty much anywhere and in the values you need.
Recommended: To get the 7R5 value, use 2 x 15R 5W Resistors in parallel.
The HF Zobel, use standard 6R8 5 Watt resistor, the recommended 0.47uF, use X2 polypropylene is recommended:
2 x 0.47uF/630V @AUD 4.30
X2 Class Polypropylene Capacitors
NOTE: This list is for the MFC version.
2 x Superior Z-Cap 1.8uF 001-0542 AUD $28.00 AUD $56.00
2 x P-Core 18mH 18AWG 000-5160 AUD $30.00 AUD $60.00
2 x Air-Core 1.8mH 21AWG 000-1466 AUD $10.00 AUD $20.00
2 x Air-Core 1mH 18AWG 000-1239 AUD $11.00 AUD $22.00
2 x P-Core 3.9mH 17AWG 000-5013 AUD $23.00 AUD $46.00
2 x Air-Core 0.1mH 18AWG 000-1234 AUD $5.50 AUD $11.00
They also have suitable 2R resistors, but they are not Jantzen:
2 x 5W MOX 2 Ohm 002-0289 AUD $1.50 10 AUD $3.00
Total: AUD $218.00
Additional Parts, this is from Jaycar Electronics:
4 x 33uF Bi-Polar @ AUD 3.65
6 x 100uF Bi-Polar @ AUD 7.65
There are some additional resistors, they are used in the current EQ parts, so use 10 Watt & 5 Watt minimum as per the Xover list below.
Standard Wirewound Resistors.
These are available pretty much anywhere and in the values you need.
Recommended: To get the 7R5 value, use 2 x 15R 5W Resistors in parallel.
The HF Zobel, use standard 6R8 5 Watt resistor, the recommended 0.47uF, use X2 polypropylene is recommended:
2 x 0.47uF/630V @AUD 4.30
X2 Class Polypropylene Capacitors
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One final question re above list. What part would be the most of an upgrade of the Xover?
This would be upgrading the C1, the Jantzen 1.8uF to the Tweeter.
Pretty much anything else would be a waste of money. Upgrading would bring little or no return for the money.
The Jantzen C1 is very good, especially for the money. But if I wanted to spend the extra cash, what brand would I get?
This I am listening to:
This is available in 1.8uF.
Make sure you get the Max version as there are two types.
Link: Audyn True Copper Max Capacitors
They are not available in Australia, but you can get them from HiFi Collective in the UK.
Link: 1.8uF 630Vdc Audyn True Copper Max Capacitor
You can also get them from Intertechnik in Germany and Parts Connexion in the USA. Just Google them.
I am not saying that there is anything better, but the Max cap is very heavy (lots of copper inside) and is a super-cap that is not cheap, but is up there with the best caps available for our use and well priced at that.
.
This would be upgrading the C1, the Jantzen 1.8uF to the Tweeter.
Pretty much anything else would be a waste of money. Upgrading would bring little or no return for the money.
The Jantzen C1 is very good, especially for the money. But if I wanted to spend the extra cash, what brand would I get?
This I am listening to:
This is available in 1.8uF.
Make sure you get the Max version as there are two types.
Link: Audyn True Copper Max Capacitors
They are not available in Australia, but you can get them from HiFi Collective in the UK.
Link: 1.8uF 630Vdc Audyn True Copper Max Capacitor
You can also get them from Intertechnik in Germany and Parts Connexion in the USA. Just Google them.
I am not saying that there is anything better, but the Max cap is very heavy (lots of copper inside) and is a super-cap that is not cheap, but is up there with the best caps available for our use and well priced at that.
.
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If I may interject 🙂
I'm a fan of speakerbug.
Their 5w range are all jantzen brand.
They have 33uf and 100uf bipolars.
Electrolytic 33uF 100V
Electrolytic 100uF 100V
And also have that .47uf you mention in a cross cap.
Cross-Cap 0.47uF
And a question.
I've seen a few speakers now that divide the tweeter from the bass/mid.
Why not do it as bass separated from the mid+tweeter ?
I'm a fan of speakerbug.
Their 5w range are all jantzen brand.
They have 33uf and 100uf bipolars.
Electrolytic 33uF 100V
Electrolytic 100uF 100V
And also have that .47uf you mention in a cross cap.
Cross-Cap 0.47uF
And a question.
I've seen a few speakers now that divide the tweeter from the bass/mid.
Why not do it as bass separated from the mid+tweeter ?
Yes, you could buy it all from Speakerbug. But I was also having an international 'audience' to read it and basically offer some guidance, and of course you can offer some too. The more the better. 🙂
Not sure if I understand the question?
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I sometimes forget the rest of the world exists 😀
I've also used madisound and parts express on occasion and was happy with them.
So they could be good sources for people in those areas.
I've repaired a few speakers over the years.
Normally if they've been built as bi wire from the factory,
The two sets of terminals will be split to feed the bass section, or the mid + tweeter section.
Terminal one -> bass.
Terminal two -> mid + tweeter.
Lately I've seen newer speakers going the other way, like your diagram above.
Terminal one -> bass + mid.
Terminal two -> tweeter.
I was just wondering if there's a technical reason for doing it that way ?
If it was a bi amp system, you'd run a big amp for the bass, then a smaller amp for the mid/tweeter section.
Yes bi amp is different from bi wire. So thought I'd ask the question.
Is that any clearer ?
I've also used madisound and parts express on occasion and was happy with them.
So they could be good sources for people in those areas.
I've repaired a few speakers over the years.
Normally if they've been built as bi wire from the factory,
The two sets of terminals will be split to feed the bass section, or the mid + tweeter section.
Terminal one -> bass.
Terminal two -> mid + tweeter.
Lately I've seen newer speakers going the other way, like your diagram above.
Terminal one -> bass + mid.
Terminal two -> tweeter.
I was just wondering if there's a technical reason for doing it that way ?
If it was a bi amp system, you'd run a big amp for the bass, then a smaller amp for the mid/tweeter section.
Yes bi amp is different from bi wire. So thought I'd ask the question.
Is that any clearer ?
So it is a question whether to bi-wire or not?
You can bi-wire, but not a good idea to bi-amp. The current EQ, where the aim is to draw the same power at all frequencies and attain a near zero current phase angle of the amplifier, that does not work when bi-amping, but should still work when bi-wiring. The Xover 'split' does need to be done intelligently. 😀
Hi,
I don't have the floor space for those nice speaker so I'm wondering if I can use them on top of a hifi furniture that is 700mm from the floor. Thinking of putting the speaker upside down to get the mid/tweeter closer to ear height. Flipping the front and the main brace would do the trick?
Or this is a bad idea?
/johan
I don't have the floor space for those nice speaker so I'm wondering if I can use them on top of a hifi furniture that is 700mm from the floor. Thinking of putting the speaker upside down to get the mid/tweeter closer to ear height. Flipping the front and the main brace would do the trick?
Or this is a bad idea?
/johan