I was there and listened to the Tannoy's for 20 minutes..
Agree on all points except, complete and accurate imagining was missing.. IME, it's not possible with a waveguide and cabinet diffraction.. The treble was localized directly from the center of the woofer..
It had, possibly the most Realism then any other system at the show, but there is more to be had..
I have far better imaging, than Tannoy, with my 2x8" woofer, 2.5 way but not the effortless high volume and dynamics of the the Tannoy set up.. I expect to obtain that when I build my 3way with large woofer and cabinet but with better image localization..
There's Lots of -Dynamic swing realism- with vinyl, combine this with no digititis, musical escapism is at it's best..
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Which says that the system was not sufficiently sorted. As soon as the speaker location betrays itself, especially in the treble band, then you're listening to too much playback generated distortion - more work has to be done.
"Effortless" dynamics is one part of the equation, complete "invisibility" of the speakers is another - never a trivial matter getting all to happen at once, but definitely the achievable goal: once heard, never, ever forgotten ...
Vinyl is certainly capable of superb sound; I have heard this on a number of occasions - which is offset by the hopeless mediocrity it also achieves frequently, on very expensive equipment.
I have some CDs with ferocious dynamic swings, which vinyl would have a very hard time with - with a volume for the intensity of the peaks to be correctly replayed, the amount of vinyl noise heard in the soft passages would be somewhat distracting ... 😀
This one's for fdegrove ... 😛
Yesterday I managed to rev up the humble PC setup to a fairly decent standard - so I thought, why not give Edit Piaf a go? A 25th anniversary CD, at maximum volume ... hmmm, not bad, not too bad at all - her voice had tremendous punch and emotional intensity, and the instruments of the solid orchestral backings resonated in big, deep acoustics; many of her recordings were done in huge spaces, with very deep echoes - the better the playback, the better these large acoustic spaces would be resolved.
What's this to do with hi fidelity? Just, if a miserable pair of computer monitors can bring these qualities out of quite difficult source material, imagine what would result with superb, highest quality reproduction setups fully optimised ...
Yesterday I managed to rev up the humble PC setup to a fairly decent standard - so I thought, why not give Edit Piaf a go? A 25th anniversary CD, at maximum volume ... hmmm, not bad, not too bad at all - her voice had tremendous punch and emotional intensity, and the instruments of the solid orchestral backings resonated in big, deep acoustics; many of her recordings were done in huge spaces, with very deep echoes - the better the playback, the better these large acoustic spaces would be resolved.
What's this to do with hi fidelity? Just, if a miserable pair of computer monitors can bring these qualities out of quite difficult source material, imagine what would result with superb, highest quality reproduction setups fully optimised ...
The source material for my demo was a singer with a guitar, effectively two-mic mono so treble localization didn't have an opportunity to manifest itself from the centre sweet seat. The system's handling of groove noise was unprecedented for vinyl in my experience however. Inter-track grooves were dead silent, bracketed by gentle tape hiss. The few surface imperfections were heard as extremely fast low level 'ticks'.
The amp alone is apparently $55K plus, my guess is the system was well over $200K. For those bored with another Aventador.
The amp alone is apparently $55K plus, my guess is the system was well over $200K. For those bored with another Aventador.
I too have heard incredibly fine sounding cds made from records. Pops and clicks and all.
But to me it only proves that the cd is a good medium, and that the crap sound results only from bad mikes, cables, dacs, soundboards, etc., but esp. from lack of care/knowledge on the part of the engineers/mixers/producers. Please remember that alot of the records were made over a long recording/mixing/mastering periods, with hundreds of the most talented and caring people imaginable. Now you have some
deaf guru with protools in a shitty studion giving you an hr. to create your masterpiece.
But to me it only proves that the cd is a good medium, and that the crap sound results only from bad mikes, cables, dacs, soundboards, etc., but esp. from lack of care/knowledge on the part of the engineers/mixers/producers. Please remember that alot of the records were made over a long recording/mixing/mastering periods, with hundreds of the most talented and caring people imaginable. Now you have some
deaf guru with protools in a shitty studion giving you an hr. to create your masterpiece.
Frank, Agree we can sort out some systems, and work at others to some extent, but in some cases in might be futile because of inherent design issues or simply bad concepts that will never achieve a high level of say, imaging for one example .. Then simply have to eliminate the culprit piece, speaker or amp or source, and look for something different etc.. Unless its possible to redesign, measure and rebuild, completely , or a portion of the culprit Piece..
Id like to know more about how to get my PC based system sounding better..
xonar essence sound card with J River. Sounds etched for one..
Tattoo, mentioned Body and Soul by Mr Jumpin Jive, Joe Jackson.. I got B&S on Lp when it was released.. It does sound amazing.. Haven't heard the CD version..
Id like to know more about how to get my PC based system sounding better..
xonar essence sound card with J River. Sounds etched for one..
Tattoo, mentioned Body and Soul by Mr Jumpin Jive, Joe Jackson.. I got B&S on Lp when it was released.. It does sound amazing.. Haven't heard the CD version..
Joel, I've made it my mantra that there is no system that can't be sorted out, 😀, provided there isn't a massive defect that would cost too much money to rectify, 😉. My experiments to date have always shown that good sound can be recovered, provided one knows the right places to look, where one should investigate, and experiment - IMO, the motto should be to do only enough to get the job done, don't fiddle with the fundamentals unless all other options are exhausted.
"Etched" is a classic symptom of sound being on the edge of being right, but just enough out of skew for some reason to cause unpleasantness. This is where I would do a whole set of experiments to track down the causes, and proceed from there ...
"Etched" is a classic symptom of sound being on the edge of being right, but just enough out of skew for some reason to cause unpleasantness. This is where I would do a whole set of experiments to track down the causes, and proceed from there ...
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Frank, any suggestions for the fixing the etched sound? Maybe I should spend hours, sifting through, the PC based posts.. 😱
Step one is to put on your detective's cap ... 😀
Sorry to be cute 😉, but I just want to emphasise that, for me, this is a troubleshooting mission - I could suggest dozens of things to do, but this would be like pulling out a gun and firing wildly in the air, in the hope that you manage to hit something flying past. IOW, I want to understand the whats of the situation, then I have best chance of achieving a good quality how to ...
"Etched" is defined as "Very crisp and sharply outlined" in J.G.Holt's glossary - in a negative sense, it could mean seemingly hearing a lot of detail, which doesn't add up to a musical whole ... is that a fair description?
Assuming, for now, that your answer is Yes, then to me there's a distortion problem - which could be for a variety of reasons. As a next step, I would want to know whether the PC audio was at some stage in the past in better shape - less "etching" - and if so what was changed when the sound got worse?
Sorry to be cute 😉, but I just want to emphasise that, for me, this is a troubleshooting mission - I could suggest dozens of things to do, but this would be like pulling out a gun and firing wildly in the air, in the hope that you manage to hit something flying past. IOW, I want to understand the whats of the situation, then I have best chance of achieving a good quality how to ...
"Etched" is defined as "Very crisp and sharply outlined" in J.G.Holt's glossary - in a negative sense, it could mean seemingly hearing a lot of detail, which doesn't add up to a musical whole ... is that a fair description?
Assuming, for now, that your answer is Yes, then to me there's a distortion problem - which could be for a variety of reasons. As a next step, I would want to know whether the PC audio was at some stage in the past in better shape - less "etching" - and if so what was changed when the sound got worse?
I Agree, troubleshooting is the what's needed.. Sometimes I didn't have success, in the past, selling the piece of gear..
Etched, for me, is treble drawing attention because it sounds gritty and lacks smoothness, hence not very analogue😀
Your right, I didn't think the problem was there in the beginning.. it's possible I didn't hear it because I was excited about a new device and time was needed to expose the issue..
On the other hand, there is a lot of settings I payed with on J River, and on sound card as well.. Maybe I'm still off on a few..
I see there is discrete OP amps for Essence STX.. Spend a few hundred buck and see? Possible, But throwing new parts in hasn't always solved the issues..
Hmm,
Etched, for me, is treble drawing attention because it sounds gritty and lacks smoothness, hence not very analogue😀
Your right, I didn't think the problem was there in the beginning.. it's possible I didn't hear it because I was excited about a new device and time was needed to expose the issue..
On the other hand, there is a lot of settings I payed with on J River, and on sound card as well.. Maybe I'm still off on a few..
I see there is discrete OP amps for Essence STX.. Spend a few hundred buck and see? Possible, But throwing new parts in hasn't always solved the issues..
Hmm,
Joel, before you get into playing with op-amps or other electronics, what are you using for speakers? That's where 90% of the sound is going to get altered....
The etching might be the result of common-mode noise, induced by your PC's power supply. Cheapest solution would be home-wound common-mode choke, next cheapest some commercial CM chokes.
Okay, we're talking real distortion here - poor old 'digital' gets the blame for so much "wrongness" ... 😉
This can easily happen - you get a real buzz from hearing things work so much better in some area of the sound ... and then you slowly realise that all is not right elsewhere - it's a long, long, long journey, 😀 - but the good news is, that if you keep making the right decisions it always keeps getting better!
Well, that is obviously at least one area to keep exploring - on my m/c the usual players perform not so well, in spite of my best efforts - foobar is a non-starter; but the freebie, simple Nero software that came with the PC is king of the hill. For a start, make sure the player program is doing absolutely nothing that is not essential to playback - no spinning logos, track position updating; the interface should be static while playing - I always minimise the program for serious listening, it ceases to be visible.
As just said, don't change expensive stuff until you definitely have an idea where problems are!I see there is discrete OP amps for Essence STX.. Spend a few hundred buck and see? Possible, But throwing new parts in hasn't always solved the issues..
Hmm,
Have the amplifier and speaker setup given you detailed, musical sound away from the PC - as is? If so, then the blame tends to go back to the music server ...
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Etched can come from many sources. And here's much worse: PCM2704 USB Sound Card DAC Ebay listing 261217968971 Now, that is crap. "Etched" sounding rather terribly. Anyway, worse does exist!
So, if you tell me that a source sounds "etched" then I'll probably believe you.
Sufficient degradation of quality to make the listening uninteresting - nothing obviously distorting, but the treble quality is insipid, lacklustre.
It would likely be a result of how the software drives the hardware in my particular case - I have tried on a number of occasions to alter parameters, to improve matters, but no success. Whereas, Nero straight out of the box has better "musicality" - makes it relatively easy to pick subtle differences between slightly varying files.
Even Audacity, with its contant screen update of track position and processing, does a better job than foobar - I haven't an answer for why, just one of those things ...
It would likely be a result of how the software drives the hardware in my particular case - I have tried on a number of occasions to alter parameters, to improve matters, but no success. Whereas, Nero straight out of the box has better "musicality" - makes it relatively easy to pick subtle differences between slightly varying files.
Even Audacity, with its contant screen update of track position and processing, does a better job than foobar - I haven't an answer for why, just one of those things ...
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The convenience and, ease of use, of the music Server, is so very appealing..
Something I'd like to work on, to get it sounding, as good as a very good CD player.. I'm using a Sony S9000ES DVD player and this has more sonic completeness than the Server.. I know there's better CD players but better to bypass a new player an make the server work for me.. A good USB DAC, maybe.. Time is needed to work it out.. Thanks!
No, its not the speakers, treble is sublime with Lp and very good with CD player.. No etch🙂 Plus any speaker I have produces the same results with server only.. Server, I can listen as background music only..
Maybe Audiophiles are, simply, to Particular🙁. No, ignore that thought..
Hmm, remembering now, someone told me they switched from, J river to Foobar..
I'll keep exploring..
Something I'd like to work on, to get it sounding, as good as a very good CD player.. I'm using a Sony S9000ES DVD player and this has more sonic completeness than the Server.. I know there's better CD players but better to bypass a new player an make the server work for me.. A good USB DAC, maybe.. Time is needed to work it out.. Thanks!
No, its not the speakers, treble is sublime with Lp and very good with CD player.. No etch🙂 Plus any speaker I have produces the same results with server only.. Server, I can listen as background music only..
Maybe Audiophiles are, simply, to Particular🙁. No, ignore that thought..
Hmm, remembering now, someone told me they switched from, J river to Foobar..
I'll keep exploring..
Have you considered that your vinyl replay system has a different frequency curve than the cd replay system?
And you know that vinyl has audible distortions, right?
Most (all?) outboard soundcards over $50 bucks can outperform a cd player.
Joel, it appears you have the classic dodgy digital dilemma, I'll call it DDD for short, 😛. Music servers as sources are certainly capable of high quality sound, the best sounds I heard at the recent audio show just used these media.
Experimentation is the name of the game now ... I would be doing things like manipulating the the source of mains power to the different parts of the audio system; running the DAC for extended periods to thoroughly condition it; shutting down every source of possible interference in the electrical vicinity of the setup - this would give me a handle on some of the environmental parameters that were important. Assume nothing; be aware that the slightest, subtle electrical misdemeanour can clobber digital sourced sound, adding an irritating edginess, and making it impossible to listen to for extended periods ...
Experimentation is the name of the game now ... I would be doing things like manipulating the the source of mains power to the different parts of the audio system; running the DAC for extended periods to thoroughly condition it; shutting down every source of possible interference in the electrical vicinity of the setup - this would give me a handle on some of the environmental parameters that were important. Assume nothing; be aware that the slightest, subtle electrical misdemeanour can clobber digital sourced sound, adding an irritating edginess, and making it impossible to listen to for extended periods ...
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