I have used a lot of schematic/PCB programs.
I never had to pay for the use of any of them. The only one with any significant limitations was Eagle free version, and I found a way round that. I only used it as an intermediate stage between gerbers and g-code anyway.
My favourite PCB program is the Labcenter package Proteus (Isis & Ares). It is easy to learn, has superb graphics and has some useful simulation facilities built in. It's not 100% there for pick and place, but for quick and dirty, and also for block and illustrative diagrams there's nothing to touch it.
It's THE program to have for people working at the pro/am level, but it's not free.
w
I never had to pay for the use of any of them. The only one with any significant limitations was Eagle free version, and I found a way round that. I only used it as an intermediate stage between gerbers and g-code anyway.
My favourite PCB program is the Labcenter package Proteus (Isis & Ares). It is easy to learn, has superb graphics and has some useful simulation facilities built in. It's not 100% there for pick and place, but for quick and dirty, and also for block and illustrative diagrams there's nothing to touch it.
It's THE program to have for people working at the pro/am level, but it's not free.
w
Spending zero dollars on a pcb cad package is a false economy.
The rule checking tools of 'paid for' packages will ensure (at least 99.99%) that you wont make a mess that makes the pcb useless.
I got so fed up of poor bug ridden cad packages that I wrote my own and am still writing it and improving it after 15 years !
The rule checking tools of 'paid for' packages will ensure (at least 99.99%) that you wont make a mess that makes the pcb useless.
I got so fed up of poor bug ridden cad packages that I wrote my own and am still writing it and improving it after 15 years !
Giving this a go... Had used Eagle prior and was going to use KiCAD this time around because the board was bigger than the free version of eagle would let you lay. But this popped up before I started laying so I thought why not... KiCAD's odd scrolling behaviour had gotten me when looking around.
It's functional, but the default footprints aren't comprehensive. Thankfully the footprint wizard is mostly easy to use.
I haven't quite figured out how to make components have editable values shown by default though. Their original library had most E24 series resistor values as individual components (with the same packages). Uhhh
Could have greater finesse in terms of copper pour management and schematic to PCB integration f/b annotation.
Don't really know regarding how powerful the DRC/ERC is as of yet.
That is unusual for such an expensive package to have such basic problems as tracks missing.
One of the problems with high level packages is the complexity of them.
However I still stick to my suggestion that free packages without error checking are a false economy. It just takes one missed error and the pcbs are junk.
Nigel's PCB40
Nigel..., I must say that I am very disappointed in your marketing methods of your products. There are no demos, that anyone can try, to determine if your product is good or half ***.
I am sure that you put a great deal of effort and pride into your work and materials. But proof is in deed..., in the pudding; would you not agree.
Your claim 127 layers. That in itself is over kill. The cost of such a pcb board is beyond my price range. 4 layer yes, even 6 layers. But Nigel, 127 layers.
I would love to test your product. Yet I refuse to pay you first. There is just something about it..., that does not sit quite right with me.
DRC are great things to have. But for hobby people, a good pcb software is simple, quick, a low learning curve and have a large library.
I was taught that designing a PCB board is like cutting wood. Measure once, measure twice, and check your drawing before you do any cutting. So that it is right the first time. Because just like cutting wood, if it is wrong. It's yours.
Most hobby persons only require single or double sided use. If you do need more layers. Buy a good one. Because you are no longer a hobby guy. But are moving on up into the pro's.
O.K, with that said, lets move on. Shall we.
Yenka Electronics, has this system that is free. But is not used for commercial use. Even if you buy it. It is only used for free at home or in schools. The school can buy it for teaching only. Not for commercial use, in a production setting.
Why do I bring this product into the fold. Because it free and you can use it to train and teach your children science and computer programming, math, and host of other things. And it is worth a look over.
Here in America, our school system has gone to sh*t. We started the lotto system, only so the government can get its money from you if you win. They garnish your winnings, the bastards. It is all a scram on their part. The state of Michigan is closing schools by the dozens. And laying off teachers. They want total control, over the money, families, jobs, you name it and they want it.
Was not the lotto system started to help our kids?
Hey, you 50 state union jack. "Show us the Money!!!"
Take Care
Ivey
Nigel..., I must say that I am very disappointed in your marketing methods of your products. There are no demos, that anyone can try, to determine if your product is good or half ***.
I am sure that you put a great deal of effort and pride into your work and materials. But proof is in deed..., in the pudding; would you not agree.
Your claim 127 layers. That in itself is over kill. The cost of such a pcb board is beyond my price range. 4 layer yes, even 6 layers. But Nigel, 127 layers.
I would love to test your product. Yet I refuse to pay you first. There is just something about it..., that does not sit quite right with me.
DRC are great things to have. But for hobby people, a good pcb software is simple, quick, a low learning curve and have a large library.
I was taught that designing a PCB board is like cutting wood. Measure once, measure twice, and check your drawing before you do any cutting. So that it is right the first time. Because just like cutting wood, if it is wrong. It's yours.
Most hobby persons only require single or double sided use. If you do need more layers. Buy a good one. Because you are no longer a hobby guy. But are moving on up into the pro's.
O.K, with that said, lets move on. Shall we.
Yenka Electronics, has this system that is free. But is not used for commercial use. Even if you buy it. It is only used for free at home or in schools. The school can buy it for teaching only. Not for commercial use, in a production setting.
Why do I bring this product into the fold. Because it free and you can use it to train and teach your children science and computer programming, math, and host of other things. And it is worth a look over.
Here in America, our school system has gone to sh*t. We started the lotto system, only so the government can get its money from you if you win. They garnish your winnings, the bastards. It is all a scram on their part. The state of Michigan is closing schools by the dozens. And laying off teachers. They want total control, over the money, families, jobs, you name it and they want it.
Was not the lotto system started to help our kids?
Hey, you 50 state union jack. "Show us the Money!!!"
Take Care
Ivey
Having sold around 500 copies I can assure you 99% of people who bought it were very happy.
The most common comment was a it was a lot of software for very little money. The reason for that is I am not in it to make loads of money just keep my 30 years of software skills upto date with a software package that is used by customers. I no longer want to do software full time so this is an ideal project.
My nearest competitor on fucntionality charges £400 a copy.
Too good to be true ? well I can assure you it is not.
I learned my Electronics Cad on Boardmaker and it's still the best I've used, by a long way.
Far. far better than Eagle or any of the Freeware PCB design software
Tried Orcad but found it over complicated.
Easy PC is very similar to Boardmaker in use but like Boardmaker isn't free, by any manner of means, so gets away from the spirit of this thread.
Sandy.
Nigel..., Sandy
I wish Nigel would allow me to review his software. I will destroy it after wards. I would not keep it without payment, if it is good Nigel. I give you my word.
But Sandy, lets get back to the Thread.
Design Spark, seems to have started a movement in the right direction. Like KiCad, it is a fairly good program. I tested it two days ago.
QuickRoute 3.6, with libraries from QuickRoute 4.0, is all that I use at this point in my life. It is free, left by the QuickRoute Co. as legacy software.
It is outstanding for quick and dirty PCB boards. No pin or size limits, produces gerber files, and does 8 layers. Plus it comes with a component and symbol editor.
It is only 6mb, and takes up little space on my computer.
Do not get me wrong. I have some great electronic cad software, PADS 4.0, Protel 99SE and DXP, CircuitMaker 2000, Eagle Professional 4.16, Edwin 1.60, Target 3000 v14Lite and Smart, WinQcad, and Vurax.
For me..., It is QuickRoute. Because I do not have to remember all the keystrokes and routines. And at my age remembering my name is a hand full.
If one is not careful, you can invest a great deal of money into electronic cad software. Just look at me.
It changes too fast to keep pace. Just when you start getting to a point of understanding all the bells and whistles, a new version appears. And the prices are getting higher and higher.
Take Care
Ivey
I wish Nigel would allow me to review his software. I will destroy it after wards. I would not keep it without payment, if it is good Nigel. I give you my word.
But Sandy, lets get back to the Thread.
Design Spark, seems to have started a movement in the right direction. Like KiCad, it is a fairly good program. I tested it two days ago.
QuickRoute 3.6, with libraries from QuickRoute 4.0, is all that I use at this point in my life. It is free, left by the QuickRoute Co. as legacy software.
It is outstanding for quick and dirty PCB boards. No pin or size limits, produces gerber files, and does 8 layers. Plus it comes with a component and symbol editor.
It is only 6mb, and takes up little space on my computer.
Do not get me wrong. I have some great electronic cad software, PADS 4.0, Protel 99SE and DXP, CircuitMaker 2000, Eagle Professional 4.16, Edwin 1.60, Target 3000 v14Lite and Smart, WinQcad, and Vurax.
For me..., It is QuickRoute. Because I do not have to remember all the keystrokes and routines. And at my age remembering my name is a hand full.
If one is not careful, you can invest a great deal of money into electronic cad software. Just look at me.
It changes too fast to keep pace. Just when you start getting to a point of understanding all the bells and whistles, a new version appears. And the prices are getting higher and higher.
Take Care
Ivey
Krisfr:
That Mouse lives in two places and both of them are now, prime real estate. So which one do you live by?
QuickRoute 3.6 Pro, is located on a Polish website. It use to be an easy website to use. But now..., you have to read and understand Polish. Yeah!!!
QuickRoute 4.0, is located at SimTel.com
You can also get Quick Route 3.5 Pro, which gives you 750 pins. And no size limits, yet I do not remember the site name.
Or, you can get it them all from me. Take your pick.
Take Care
Ivey
That Mouse lives in two places and both of them are now, prime real estate. So which one do you live by?
QuickRoute 3.6 Pro, is located on a Polish website. It use to be an easy website to use. But now..., you have to read and understand Polish. Yeah!!!
QuickRoute 4.0, is located at SimTel.com
You can also get Quick Route 3.5 Pro, which gives you 750 pins. And no size limits, yet I do not remember the site name.
Or, you can get it them all from me. Take your pick.
Take Care
Ivey
Interesting.
DRC is a must, and using and setting it up properly is paramount, its easy to make an mistake on the simplest of PCB's.
Getting the component footprints correct is again critical, for SMD us IPC-7351.
Simple programs are OK for the simple stuff, but digital is getting harder with faster rise times, etc signal integrity is a big issue, even I2C bus requires some thought to avoid skew between clock and data. Thats why commercial use the big expensive tools and why we never stop learning in the field of PCB designs.
Had a play with some of the programs mentioned and found them all easy to learn and use, and quite adequate for simpler designs, but once you get above 4 layers DIYers are stuck.
DRC is a must, and using and setting it up properly is paramount, its easy to make an mistake on the simplest of PCB's.
Getting the component footprints correct is again critical, for SMD us IPC-7351.
Simple programs are OK for the simple stuff, but digital is getting harder with faster rise times, etc signal integrity is a big issue, even I2C bus requires some thought to avoid skew between clock and data. Thats why commercial use the big expensive tools and why we never stop learning in the field of PCB designs.
Had a play with some of the programs mentioned and found them all easy to learn and use, and quite adequate for simpler designs, but once you get above 4 layers DIYers are stuck.
Yes Marce
Love it when people are correct, it take the barren off my shoulders.
But I do not do SMD at home. One of the reasons is that I do not have any. Second, it is too hard on my old vision to use them. Too small. And Third, I hate spending money. If I do not have to.
I do not want to buy SMD equipment. I am so mad, I could just sheet. You know, cover my bed.
I use Unger Solder equipment for years, invested thousands of dollars and they get brought out by Welder, who just shut the whole thing down. Now I run around grabbing up all the remaining Unger gear that I can.
I will hold out on SMD, as long as I can. I do not want to spend money on a new system.
Most of us do keep it simple, our lives are screwed up enough, with all that our perspective governments are doing to us.
"God save the Citizen, damn the Queen". That's a joke.
SMD put a lot of pressure on the designers. And I do not want to go there again. Even with through the hole, with multi layer boards it was hard to keep it correct.
So I will no longer go beyond 2 layers, and I do everything I can, to keep it on a single layer now days.
So, for our sake, lets keep it simple.
Take Care
Ivey
Love it when people are correct, it take the barren off my shoulders.
But I do not do SMD at home. One of the reasons is that I do not have any. Second, it is too hard on my old vision to use them. Too small. And Third, I hate spending money. If I do not have to.
I do not want to buy SMD equipment. I am so mad, I could just sheet. You know, cover my bed.
I use Unger Solder equipment for years, invested thousands of dollars and they get brought out by Welder, who just shut the whole thing down. Now I run around grabbing up all the remaining Unger gear that I can.
I will hold out on SMD, as long as I can. I do not want to spend money on a new system.
Most of us do keep it simple, our lives are screwed up enough, with all that our perspective governments are doing to us.
"God save the Citizen, damn the Queen". That's a joke.
SMD put a lot of pressure on the designers. And I do not want to go there again. Even with through the hole, with multi layer boards it was hard to keep it correct.
So I will no longer go beyond 2 layers, and I do everything I can, to keep it on a single layer now days.
So, for our sake, lets keep it simple.
Take Care
Ivey
I agree simple is best, but SMD is a fact of life, and in the digital domain you have little choice these days. A good example is memory devices, these days the only choice is DDR ram, due to price and availability, which requires very careful attention to routing.
The new preffered packaging for IC's are QFN based (bottom terminated devices), ie no legs and a thermal pad, these are even more difficult for proffesional assembly, never mind DIY:
http://www.mirrorsemi.com/pdf/Global_SMT_Bottom_Terminated_Component_Oct_2009.pdf
I agree that the pressure on PCB designers is increasing, to the point where I find it no where near enjoyable as it use to be, with increased density, increased rise times, clock speeds, layer count etc, we spend more time entering contsraints and running simulations than ever before. With an average of 8 - 12 layers, 3-4 thousand pins on an average board it is impossible to route without the interactive routers etc.
That siad SMD does have advantages and is here to slay.
Have fun
Marc
The new preffered packaging for IC's are QFN based (bottom terminated devices), ie no legs and a thermal pad, these are even more difficult for proffesional assembly, never mind DIY:
http://www.mirrorsemi.com/pdf/Global_SMT_Bottom_Terminated_Component_Oct_2009.pdf
I agree that the pressure on PCB designers is increasing, to the point where I find it no where near enjoyable as it use to be, with increased density, increased rise times, clock speeds, layer count etc, we spend more time entering contsraints and running simulations than ever before. With an average of 8 - 12 layers, 3-4 thousand pins on an average board it is impossible to route without the interactive routers etc.
That siad SMD does have advantages and is here to slay.
Have fun
Marc
Did you say "slay" or stay
Because if you meant slay. It is a giant killer, when it comes to us oldies. Our eyes just will not handle that tiny, tiny, stuff.
Hell, in order for us older guys to find that stuff, you got to put hair on it.
If you do not have a good mag glass, you are in trouble.
And that's not all, there are very little id numbers on that stuff. And I am going to have to learn a whole new world of thinking. When it comes to SMD.
Well young man, I will say this. I learn valves, then solid state, 1950's style, then 1960's style, the 1980's style. I am done. Stick a fork in me and place me on the table.
If I dropped one of those things on the floor, I will never find it. Their so small. Then I would have to buy new solder tips or an oven. Maybe I could use my Wife's new stainless steel GE Magic Range.
Now that really Peed me off. My Wife purchase a new stainless steel range, just so she could give the one she purchase seven months earlier to our child for her new home. I found out she Never cooked on it. All my meals have prepared using the toaster oven, microwave oven, and those new George Foreman junk.
You see, do not get old. Your wife will go crazy, shopping on TV, the internet, every where. I have more old women in my house, than the old folk homes. Where were all those ladies, when I was young and dumb?
I my day, I watch things get smaller and smaller. Now we have cell phones, that can do almost anything. You no longer need a computer. Pretty soon they will be printing out faxes. They will have the ability to be ray guns, transport units. All in one unit. Hell, right now you can use them to trigger a bomb.
PCB software, have gotten very complex. It has left me behind. I will go on using QuikRoute, CircuitMaker 2000, and Protel 99SE. And leave the new ones to you young men.
I miss the old days, because right now, I can not even work on my car, without a computer and a complete workshop. Plus, I have to be a midget just to get to the components under the hood.
Because if you meant slay. It is a giant killer, when it comes to us oldies. Our eyes just will not handle that tiny, tiny, stuff.
Hell, in order for us older guys to find that stuff, you got to put hair on it.
If you do not have a good mag glass, you are in trouble.
And that's not all, there are very little id numbers on that stuff. And I am going to have to learn a whole new world of thinking. When it comes to SMD.
Well young man, I will say this. I learn valves, then solid state, 1950's style, then 1960's style, the 1980's style. I am done. Stick a fork in me and place me on the table.
If I dropped one of those things on the floor, I will never find it. Their so small. Then I would have to buy new solder tips or an oven. Maybe I could use my Wife's new stainless steel GE Magic Range.
Now that really Peed me off. My Wife purchase a new stainless steel range, just so she could give the one she purchase seven months earlier to our child for her new home. I found out she Never cooked on it. All my meals have prepared using the toaster oven, microwave oven, and those new George Foreman junk.
You see, do not get old. Your wife will go crazy, shopping on TV, the internet, every where. I have more old women in my house, than the old folk homes. Where were all those ladies, when I was young and dumb?
I my day, I watch things get smaller and smaller. Now we have cell phones, that can do almost anything. You no longer need a computer. Pretty soon they will be printing out faxes. They will have the ability to be ray guns, transport units. All in one unit. Hell, right now you can use them to trigger a bomb.
PCB software, have gotten very complex. It has left me behind. I will go on using QuikRoute, CircuitMaker 2000, and Protel 99SE. And leave the new ones to you young men.
I miss the old days, because right now, I can not even work on my car, without a computer and a complete workshop. Plus, I have to be a midget just to get to the components under the hood.
BTD components
Marc:
I got around to reading that post on BTD units.
God, are they tiny. Very low profile.
In 1961, we thought that 3 transistor radios were the smallest that we could go. Because it fit in the palm of ones hand. We were on the cutting edge of technology, we were the big shots on the block, in those days.
If only some of my buddies were here now. George, would be dreaming up all kinds of things. Bless his heart. Just talking and talking and drawing up this, designing that.
I use Bishop in those days. Long glass tables, tape, circles and a lot of imagination. 8 to 10 hours over a table, and the rip ups and rebuilds.
Our goal, keep it one sided, use few jumpers and keep the board size as small as you can.
FR2 was the bomb in the early days. Then thick FR4 boards came out. HP was good at those. We followed their lead. Learned a great deal from those guys.
The Brits were still using a great deal of point to point wiring for their military gear in the 1950's and 1960's. Monty was still in charge then.
The vintage army guys still ran the Royal Army.
O.k., I let you go. I have meds to take, good night
Take Care
Ivey
Marc:
I got around to reading that post on BTD units.
God, are they tiny. Very low profile.
In 1961, we thought that 3 transistor radios were the smallest that we could go. Because it fit in the palm of ones hand. We were on the cutting edge of technology, we were the big shots on the block, in those days.
If only some of my buddies were here now. George, would be dreaming up all kinds of things. Bless his heart. Just talking and talking and drawing up this, designing that.
I use Bishop in those days. Long glass tables, tape, circles and a lot of imagination. 8 to 10 hours over a table, and the rip ups and rebuilds.
Our goal, keep it one sided, use few jumpers and keep the board size as small as you can.
FR2 was the bomb in the early days. Then thick FR4 boards came out. HP was good at those. We followed their lead. Learned a great deal from those guys.
The Brits were still using a great deal of point to point wiring for their military gear in the 1950's and 1960's. Monty was still in charge then.
The vintage army guys still ran the Royal Army.
O.k., I let you go. I have meds to take, good night
Take Care
Ivey
Ivey
I did mean slay, its killing me keeping up with the changes.
The QFN's are becoming a pain, the engineers can shove more and more on a board, because of the component density, thermal modeling is becoming a necesity. And to make matters worse we are looking at BGA's with a ball pitch of 0.5mmthere is so little pad for adhesion that they fall of if you sneeze next to them.
Thanks for the young man comment, if only, I've 4 grandkids and reach my half centuary in a few short months, half of which I've spent laying out PCB's. I don't build things any more though as like you I cannot see the detail these days, each year my optition adds another few mm's to the lenses in my glasses, where I work though there are some very dexterous and kind lady's in production who for a box of chocolates, will assemble boards for me.
Have Fun
Marc
I did mean slay, its killing me keeping up with the changes.
The QFN's are becoming a pain, the engineers can shove more and more on a board, because of the component density, thermal modeling is becoming a necesity. And to make matters worse we are looking at BGA's with a ball pitch of 0.5mm
there is so little pad for adhesion that they fall of if you sneeze next to them.Thanks for the young man comment
, if only, I've 4 grandkids and reach my half centuary in a few short months, half of which I've spent laying out PCB's. I don't build things any more though as like you I cannot see the detail these days, each year my optition adds another few mm's to the lenses in my glasses, where I work though there are some very dexterous and kind lady's in production who for a box of chocolates, will assemble boards for me.Have Fun
Marc
Marc, you can not keep doing that
Those kind ladies husbands, are going to get upset with you..., if you keep giving them all that chocolate.
I agree, electronics is getting tiny. Soon, we will be into "nano tech" and we will need microscopes.
It love to watch us go forward, and dream of all the wonderful things that we created. I just hope it is all for the good.
Today, I am waiting for the techs to come and go over my basement and give it a an all clear of mold. Cost $1,347.00 dollars. Property damage by mold. It can not be replaced.
I remember when I worked on my first MPU. The 8000, then the 8008. Then I was able to use the wonderful 8080. My wife and I did not talk for weeks.
My God!!! 40 pins. Buffers, registars, clocks, RTL logic chips, the new TTL's. The fun days of the 1960's and 1970's. And the days when cars were cars and not little red wagons with motor scooter engines.
I remember my first car. A DeSoto. Two tone. Now, my grand kids are grown, and having kids and drive they tiny cars.
Sometimes I think I lived too long. Seen too much. But I never went into space. Not enough money
When you turn fifty, please, think of Winston. I use to listen to him over the short wave in the 1940's and 1950's.
I remember his words:
"I know that you are cold, with little to eat, and with little hope. But our will is strong. Never in history, did me surrender. Not to the Romans, Normans, or Saxons. With the help of our greatest allied friend and family. We prevail. This I promise".
Those great men and women, are looking down upon us. Life will be joyous.
"They promise".
Take Care
Ivey
Those kind ladies husbands, are going to get upset with you..., if you keep giving them all that chocolate.
I agree, electronics is getting tiny. Soon, we will be into "nano tech" and we will need microscopes.
It love to watch us go forward, and dream of all the wonderful things that we created. I just hope it is all for the good.
Today, I am waiting for the techs to come and go over my basement and give it a an all clear of mold. Cost $1,347.00 dollars. Property damage by mold. It can not be replaced.
I remember when I worked on my first MPU. The 8000, then the 8008. Then I was able to use the wonderful 8080. My wife and I did not talk for weeks.
My God!!! 40 pins. Buffers, registars, clocks, RTL logic chips, the new TTL's. The fun days of the 1960's and 1970's. And the days when cars were cars and not little red wagons with motor scooter engines.
I remember my first car. A DeSoto. Two tone. Now, my grand kids are grown, and having kids and drive they tiny cars.
Sometimes I think I lived too long. Seen too much. But I never went into space. Not enough money
When you turn fifty, please, think of Winston. I use to listen to him over the short wave in the 1940's and 1950's.
I remember his words:
"I know that you are cold, with little to eat, and with little hope. But our will is strong. Never in history, did me surrender. Not to the Romans, Normans, or Saxons. With the help of our greatest allied friend and family. We prevail. This I promise".
Those great men and women, are looking down upon us. Life will be joyous.
"They promise".
Take Care
Ivey
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