Does no-one else have any difficulties with two examples?
A wealthy man running a large retail business, like Mike Ashley for eg., having a yacht which costs 10K a week to moor and keep maintained, or 100k to use on the ocean, telling his staff that if they go for a pee, (1minute), they will loose 15mins worth of pay, and telling them the he owns them.
An ex military man who has left the forces after fighting for his country, and is homeless on the street after doing so.
A wealthy man running a large retail business, like Mike Ashley for eg., having a yacht which costs 10K a week to moor and keep maintained, or 100k to use on the ocean, telling his staff that if they go for a pee, (1minute), they will loose 15mins worth of pay, and telling them the he owns them.
An ex military man who has left the forces after fighting for his country, and is homeless on the street after doing so.
Thanks for the link; some beautiful blades in there 🙂
This being said, these posts had me searching the web and I'm very tempted by this knife: BIG CHEF KNIFE - forged stainless steel | Custom hunting knife, hand forged knife, premium knife, best kitchen knives, hand forged axes The blade is rather hard for a stainless steel one. They also have a gorgeous damascus version but it's twice the price and let's face it, stainless is so much more practical for everyday use.
Flavour and aroma evaporate, coffee oxidizes, aromatic oils get rancid, so all what remains is a rancid bitter taste.
Be aware that drinking *that* may turn drinker rancid bitter too.
You may partially compensate that by using it *fast*, say drinking 10/12 cups a day.
What effect that could cause on drinker Psyche or attitude remains to be tested.
Actually, all I did was repost your own words. However, by all means, please feel free to set clear your meaning. I don't wish to misunderstand such an otherwise provocative statement.
Last edited:
I think the equation has two variables.
Manufacturer + commercial chain writes a price label so he seems to be setting a price, period.
But buyer may (and does) "vote with his wallet", he may find that value is superior to cost (whatever it is) so he effectively buys, or the opposite, in which case he does not. Period.
He will not haggle with manufacturer on price, at least not face to face, BUT if the latter wants to sell he will try to correct that ... or go bankrupt.
He has 2 basic paths:
* increase value, either real (improved product) or perceived: publicity - nicer aspect, etc.
or:
* lower price.
I don´t see many more possibilities and am not sure where the word "greed" fits in. 😕
FWIW I am a (small) Manufacturer, so a Seller, for over 50 years now, so am well aware of how difficult it is to tear money out of a Customer´s wallet, so have always used a combination of the above, from providing good sound, to reliable construction to acceptable looks, plus acceptable price, paid advertisements, having my stuff used by famous Musicians, writing Musician-readable Tech articles in Music magazines, offering Tech advice on Music related Forums, the works.
Always conscious that the one who has the "deciding power" is the end user.
(hint, he´s the one with the money in his pocket 😀)
Pharos,
It was a insightful and concerning TV program, I also watched it.
Since fair trade became a banner for farming welfare in these poorer countries, like Guatemala, I have exclusively bought Guatamalan Fair Trade coffee- thr Guatemalan is simply the best most refined coffee tastes, for me, nothing comes close, maybe some African grown is closest.
But for me it is saddening.
Jan's point (sorry Jan but) is coming from a place of privilege and a bit of a knee jerk conscience attack, "what have you done for charity to accuse me of not doing enough" overly defensive when not under attack in any way! 😀
Well for me it is saddening, because the Fair Trade moniker was an assurance to the consumer that these coffee growers werent slaves, children, and we pay more so that they can earn a fair wage.
Except the business, it seems, the farm owner, who is probably another Guatamalan, just takes the extra profit, employs children, deceives Nestle of whoever, and is basically stabbing his countrymen in the back.
So I too agree with Pharos, as a conscientious modern man, I believe thatI have chosen a less economic coffee, so that I may improve the lives of people, that would be picking coffee whether it's for £5 a day or £10.
What is a conscientious man to do?
(If I wasnt, and was just a tight ****, then I'd also be drinking Maxwell House - but if I'm honest, if I was pushed that far, may as well drink camp coffee and wait in my shed waiting for the rapture/zombie apocalypse, while testing the wall percussively with my forehead.)
I essentially agree with all of that.
We've all been loosely using the terms, price, cost, value and worth in this thread without formal definition. However, as you've importantly pointed out, the price/cost/value/worth of an good is whatever buyers are willing to pay for it. Vendors are forced to lower prices for their products when insufficient value has been created in the perception of buyers, or in the perceptions of too few number of buyers.
For a sales transaction to occur, a seller must be willing to part with an good for the price a potential buyer is willing to pay for it. If both of those conditions are not met, a sales transaction does not occur. People selling personal items (home, car, HiFi gear, etc.) most typically run afoul of that reality. Their personal attachment to something they need to sell leads them to, perhaps, unknowingly elevate it's sales price. Potential buyers, however, have no such attachment, and so, do not recognize that same degree of value. A sale doesn't occur, and the seller is left to wonder why. Said another way, something is only 'worth' what someone else will pay us for it. It's not simply worth what the seller wants to charge for it. Any would be seller must understand this.
Commercial sellers must also keep that basic principle in mind. A product sale only occurs when a buyer's percieved value of that product, at that moment, equals or exceeds it's asking price. A discrepancy between the two is most quickly resolved by discounting the asking price, however, such discount may not be sustainable. It certainly isn't desirable. The more desirable, but also the more challenging, solution is to increase the buyer's perception of value. This is where marketing critically comes in. Actually, it's where marketing, engineering, manufacturing and sales should all synergistically come together before the product is even developed.
[The below comments are not addressed to you, JMFahey. You run a business, and so, already understand the important role of each business function.] Among technically minded people, marketing is often thought of as a dirty word, and it's professionals as some sort of crooks. This is wrongheaded. Marketing and sales are both critically important business functions. A company may employ the world's best engineers, and have the world's best manufacturing, and so, make the world's best products. However, if the world does not sufficiently perceive those facts, the products and the company will fail.
It's the role of marketing and sales to make potential customers aware (To perceive it. After all, awareness is perception.) of a product's value, and facilitate it's availability to those interested customers. In that task, it is possible to create, intentionally or unintentionally, a perception of value which may not be fully supported by the objective performance metrics and features of that product. Further, as has been mentioned upthread, emotional appeals inherently generate higher product value perceptions within humans than do logical appeals. As a consequence, marketing and sales departments, who are tasked with instilling the perception of value, are therefore motivated to attempt to instill the highest perception of value, whether rational or irrational, among buyers. The success or failure of the entire company likely rides on it. Highly logical/analytical personality types (i.e., engineers) naturally chaff at the creation-of-perception sort of activities, however, that is a myopically conceited viewpoint, if I may suggest.
Engineers naturally tend to assume that the best products will naturally be recognized as such by a rational market of buyers, largely because it's how WE would recognize a product's value. Except, that is usually false. It overlooks the key truth that buyers are humans, not vulcans of Star Trek. The vast majority of us respond most strongly toward appeals to our emotions, and not as strongly on appeals toward our logic. This is especially true at the all important retail level. Other factors are also at work, such as a lack of buyer expertise regarding the product technology being considered for purchase. The engineers who design a product are technical experts. The customers, easily not. The majority of customers aren't interested in a product's technology, only it's benefits. Technical expertise requires time, energy and inclination to acquire.
Last edited:
It was a statement about how I feel, an internal conflict, and I cannot see how that is provocative to anyone - unless perhaps, they have an internal need to persecute such a person.
Are you feeling persecuted?
If yes, please climb down off your cross.
If not, please stop looking for a contrived reason to climb on to one.
I think that I have been in my life, and usually because of my being different, and I am used to ridicule.
I do not however think that I have a psychological condition with which I feel persecuted without any external cause.
Do you really expect me to obey an albeit phrased in apparent politeness, instruction from you?
I do not however think that I have a psychological condition with which I feel persecuted without any external cause.
Do you really expect me to obey an albeit phrased in apparent politeness, instruction from you?
Alrighty, then. I can see the very odd direction this is heading. No thank you. Have a good day.
Measuring test for EAR 834P in Stereophile
EAR 834P phono preamplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com
reveals RIAA is within +/- 0.15 dB, both for MM and MC, which is beyond excellent, especially for a tube equipment.
Can you design, produce and sell a similar phono stage for a considerable lower price, and earn enough for living? I doubt it, because if that was so easy, YOU would have done it long time ago.
No, you are not. See above.
Why I am not surprised that you didn't answer this very sound question:
__________________________________
Somebody mentioned that you pick a wrong example. I would say very, very wrong example. EAR products are very reasonable priced for a tube pre/amplifiers and Tim de Paravicini does not use "snake oil" marketing at all.
Maybe you should have picked up example like "Vitus Audio MP-P201 Masterpiece Series phono preamplifier" which costs $60,000 or "Boulder 2108 phono preamplifier" which costs $52,000 ?
Again, no! They don't use "snake oil" marketing.
Did the inside parts justify those prices? Wrong question!
And so on...
Last edited:
I once worked with a guy whom I noticed would fresh make an morning pot of coffee, but not drink any of it until the afternoon. Only drinking any after leaving it to slowly cook on the warming plate all day. (His personality was, and stayed easy going, though. 😀)
When I asked him why, he replied; That he had gotten used to drinking burnt tasting coffee from an previous job, where an old pot of it seemed always to be conviently sitting around. After informing him of the obvious, that it would taste much better if he drank it while fresh, he replied; Sure he knows that. It's just that fresh isn't the taste he had gotten used to.
What was most interesting to me is that it demonstrated how most of us want an consistent experience with our products. We want the things we buy and use to reliably 'be' the same at each use. This is what 'quality' means, from a business operations perspective. His coffee may have performed poorly, but it's quality was high to him because it consistently met his expectations of it. McDonalds being a hugely successful example of this operations definition of product quality.
Last edited:
Member
Joined 2009
Paid Member
I don't mind paying for something well built, even if there's a premium for the 'name' when that premium was earned through decades of quality products. A case in point - I purchased a Leica film camera made some time ago - the quality is stunning and the pleasure of use and ownership very high.