Having purchased 2 other res2 used and in anticipation of taking 2 more, I wanted to build 4 new cabinet tham shortly. currently I use a satellite on two or 3 "tham 15mo" (version with inclined panel to increase the mouth) com in figures 1 and 2, and since I have 4 faital 18hp1010 I would have thought of tham 18, but they can cohabit with tham 15 and above all Is it a good cone for that project? I should cut both the 15 and the 18 at the same frequency, I think 30-90 / 100hz is right.
Another question, from the tham 18 I read that there is the old version and the new one, but what changes?
Why do I use the tham instead of the pass-band slide sub? They are small and easily transportable and then the tham 15 used in a few units, compared to f118 in my opinion it has more hit on the pure bass.f118 in my opinion it has more hit on the pure bass. Obviously, if you put many f118 neighbors the situation changes, but it is not very scalable as a solution!f118 neighbors the situation changes, but it is not very scalable as a solution!
thanks!
Another question, from the tham 18 I read that there is the old version and the new one, but what changes?
Why do I use the tham instead of the pass-band slide sub? They are small and easily transportable and then the tham 15 used in a few units, compared to f118 in my opinion it has more hit on the pure bass.f118 in my opinion it has more hit on the pure bass. Obviously, if you put many f118 neighbors the situation changes, but it is not very scalable as a solution!f118 neighbors the situation changes, but it is not very scalable as a solution!
thanks!
OK, since no one else wants to respond, I'll give it a stab.
If the question is will a Tham15 & a Tham18 play nice together on the same bandwidth - NO it will not.
Yes the two different phase curves will create undesirable constructive/destructive interference. IE, modes & nulls throughout the listening space.
Now if used with a speaker managment DBX/Behringer/Peavey/Carvin, or if your amps have DPS - then Yes. But only if you bandwidth limit the Tham15 to a kick-bin, and the Tham18 as the sub.
I feel there are lighter/better designs for "kick" section than a Tham. It's more of a do-all cab, vs optimized for a single purpose like a kick-bin. Driver selection will have a large influence to its performance.
If the question is will a Tham15 & a Tham18 play nice together on the same bandwidth - NO it will not.
Yes the two different phase curves will create undesirable constructive/destructive interference. IE, modes & nulls throughout the listening space.
Now if used with a speaker managment DBX/Behringer/Peavey/Carvin, or if your amps have DPS - then Yes. But only if you bandwidth limit the Tham15 to a kick-bin, and the Tham18 as the sub.
I feel there are lighter/better designs for "kick" section than a Tham. It's more of a do-all cab, vs optimized for a single purpose like a kick-bin. Driver selection will have a large influence to its performance.
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Sublimacon,
As long as the phase response of the two cabinets are within 1/4 wavelength (under 90 degrees) at any given frequency, they will add constructively.
Before I would give a thumbs up or down to the OP's combination, I'd want to see both cabinets phase response, which neither you or the OP provided ;^).
My bet would be both THAM's phase response is mostly within 90 degrees of each other over their respective passbands, and the phase variation below the passband of the smaller cabinet will make little difference if the HP filters of each are set according to the Fb of each.
That said, the OP's statement:
"I should cut both the 15 and the 18 at the same frequency, I think 30.." is probably too low for the THAM 15, and marginal for the 18, IIRC.
Art
Attachments
I cut the tham 15 at 35hz and 38Hz (highpass 12, 18 and 24db oct), it changes little, wanting I can make a single cut, could it be fine?
How would you advise cutting them for use together?
Here is the simulated phase and spl response of the THAM15 with a B&C 15TBX100 (black) and THAM18 with a RCF LF18X401 (grey).
Driver selections is because I used simulations I already had in Hornresp.
I would not hesitate to use THAM15 and THAM18 side by side if I already had them. I would prefer to use only stacks of 4 THAM18, since this is the intended usage for them.
Cheers,
Johannes
To all,
First I am rather shocked the transfer function of two different drivers load into two different size cabs sum so well. The effective delay at 100Hz is about 14.742", which won't create any significant deconstructive interference.
My experience of mis-mached subs has primarily been with BR's, which typically produced less than great results (esp if indoors). The tapped horn alignment must have such a profound influence on phase responce that the driver's own curve is overridden - per say.
I apologize to the OP for the misdirection!
If Mr Circlomanen (part of the Dev team of Tham) and Weltersys say its good to go, then I stand corrected.
So to the responders, given what I said:
If indoors, with random placements at various indoor gigs, two different Tham's will mutually couple (and interact with the room) as well as paired identicle BR cabs. Forgive my ignorance, this kind of blows my mind.
I assume this only applies to say Tham/Roar designs, as they've been optimized and voiced by the same team?
As an example: take a CV 36 cab and match it with a simular B52 cab, I don't see them playing nice together in the same indoor space.
First I am rather shocked the transfer function of two different drivers load into two different size cabs sum so well. The effective delay at 100Hz is about 14.742", which won't create any significant deconstructive interference.
My experience of mis-mached subs has primarily been with BR's, which typically produced less than great results (esp if indoors). The tapped horn alignment must have such a profound influence on phase responce that the driver's own curve is overridden - per say.
I apologize to the OP for the misdirection!
If Mr Circlomanen (part of the Dev team of Tham) and Weltersys say its good to go, then I stand corrected.
So to the responders, given what I said:
If indoors, with random placements at various indoor gigs, two different Tham's will mutually couple (and interact with the room) as well as paired identicle BR cabs. Forgive my ignorance, this kind of blows my mind.
I assume this only applies to say Tham/Roar designs, as they've been optimized and voiced by the same team?
As an example: take a CV 36 cab and match it with a simular B52 cab, I don't see them playing nice together in the same indoor space.
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Sublimacon,
Phase is phase, regardless of alignment type, BR FLH,TH. Other than needing different equalization (which would also tend to bring phase response closer) to achieve anything close to flat response, a CV 36 would work OK with a B52 cab, indoors or out. Another difference that can affect the "mix and match" outcome is the difference in directivity towards the top end of the sub pass band, a FLH has more directivity than a BR, a TH of similar frontal area may have even more yet. Directivity can not be equalized.
Small rooms and sub placement have profound effects on response- there can be a huge difference between placement positions. Most all of the myths (like "horn subs throw further") can be chalked up to room differences, and array directivity.
That said, "mix and match" without paying attention to different EQ, power and excursion levels will result in lousy sound, feedback, or loosing the weakest link.
Art
Weltersys,
Thank you for the response.
Realising the Tham/Roar lines were optimized in Hornresp buy the same team, it makes sense they operate similarly. Enough to sum amongst various sizes.
But my CV -vs- B52 comparison, i just don't see it. These are legacy old-school designs. They were produced with partial modeling formulas, best gueses, and good old trial & error dev. I can't imagine how those dissimilar products could have simular phase/impulse responses/polar distribution enough to sum together well (esp with unknown placements by end-users). I mean this flys against very well established principals of not mixing & matching hodgepodge sys together.
For the mid/large events segment, the industy std is flying J-Arrays. The environment(s) are ringed-out and characterized by advanced hdw/software (FFT). The resulting sys settings profile is usually dynamically adjusted via DSP to compensate for a multitude of parameters, including amplifier SOC telemetry. This includes the normal array Fq/Amplitude shading, and any additional required for modified polar responses (anti-power alley, Etc).
And yes phase is phase, especially at a single sample point. But what about the entire bandwidth? What about the extremes of the bandwidth, were non-linearities love to reside? Plus somthing not discussed here (i think ever) is the potential for dissimilar cabs which sum together "well enough" at the macro-level, but still different enough to induce high amplitude IM/TIM distortion.
And once again, I remind myself we're talking about PA sound here. Distortion up to a significant % is interpreted by the masses as sounding louder & more powerful (esp at indoor arena metal gigs).
In short I see your point on these specific T/H cabs, but I hope you can understand my position of the negative aspects of the generalized proposed situation.
Thank you for the response.
Realising the Tham/Roar lines were optimized in Hornresp buy the same team, it makes sense they operate similarly. Enough to sum amongst various sizes.
But my CV -vs- B52 comparison, i just don't see it. These are legacy old-school designs. They were produced with partial modeling formulas, best gueses, and good old trial & error dev. I can't imagine how those dissimilar products could have simular phase/impulse responses/polar distribution enough to sum together well (esp with unknown placements by end-users). I mean this flys against very well established principals of not mixing & matching hodgepodge sys together.
For the mid/large events segment, the industy std is flying J-Arrays. The environment(s) are ringed-out and characterized by advanced hdw/software (FFT). The resulting sys settings profile is usually dynamically adjusted via DSP to compensate for a multitude of parameters, including amplifier SOC telemetry. This includes the normal array Fq/Amplitude shading, and any additional required for modified polar responses (anti-power alley, Etc).
And yes phase is phase, especially at a single sample point. But what about the entire bandwidth? What about the extremes of the bandwidth, were non-linearities love to reside? Plus somthing not discussed here (i think ever) is the potential for dissimilar cabs which sum together "well enough" at the macro-level, but still different enough to induce high amplitude IM/TIM distortion.
And once again, I remind myself we're talking about PA sound here. Distortion up to a significant % is interpreted by the masses as sounding louder & more powerful (esp at indoor arena metal gigs).
In short I see your point on these specific T/H cabs, but I hope you can understand my position of the negative aspects of the generalized proposed situation.
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actually, on low, catastrophic cancellations I've never heard of. rather.. I remember a reggae sound that had 2 cerwin vega l36 (loaded with fane xb) and at the center of the stage it put 4 thomann band pass 18 " the sound was very "big" but there was no strange cancellation or reverb!
Low that "decreases" I've only heard about it in the forums! I wonder if this is a myth like the bass with a horn that goes farther!
Low that "decreases" I've only heard about it in the forums! I wonder if this is a myth like the bass with a horn that goes farther!
angeloDJ,
If a sound tech/Eng is experiencd with the gear and how best to operate it - yes dissimilar subs can be made to work. But that is certainly not an ideal circumstance.
You will note almost none of the tour rigs have mis-matched subs. There's a reason for that, unpredictable results. The sound at different locations is aleady hard to compensate for, mixing PA cabs just makes that much worse.
If you want an easy demonstration of bass cancellation, reverse the polarity of one cab vs the other(s). Also many shows exhibit a "power alley" especially for lower Frequencies. This is sometimes a decided outcome, but manytimes just a side effect of numerous subs, and their placement. Now in an ideal setup, as you walked to the sides of the venue noticeable high/low volumes wouldn't be experienced. Rather a gradual rolloff of bass energy would be noticed. Now, same show but this time a mixture of sub cabs. Even though care full placement and settings has made this work (for the most part), strange amplitude anomalies could be popping up all over the crowd.
BTW, reggae bands love scoop subs because they're screaming loud in the 60-150Hz range. Mis-matched subs could render that, but suffer at lower EDM show frequencies due to phase induced cancellation.
And yes, I am of the opinion that horn-loaded subs do project (throw deeper). One can see that effect on polar-plots of their response. A horn is a wave/pressure transformer, greatly by the effect of compression. Said compression is accomplished by limiting the radiation pattern of the transducer in a expanding flared waveguide (horn).
If a sound tech/Eng is experiencd with the gear and how best to operate it - yes dissimilar subs can be made to work. But that is certainly not an ideal circumstance.
You will note almost none of the tour rigs have mis-matched subs. There's a reason for that, unpredictable results. The sound at different locations is aleady hard to compensate for, mixing PA cabs just makes that much worse.
If you want an easy demonstration of bass cancellation, reverse the polarity of one cab vs the other(s). Also many shows exhibit a "power alley" especially for lower Frequencies. This is sometimes a decided outcome, but manytimes just a side effect of numerous subs, and their placement. Now in an ideal setup, as you walked to the sides of the venue noticeable high/low volumes wouldn't be experienced. Rather a gradual rolloff of bass energy would be noticed. Now, same show but this time a mixture of sub cabs. Even though care full placement and settings has made this work (for the most part), strange amplitude anomalies could be popping up all over the crowd.
BTW, reggae bands love scoop subs because they're screaming loud in the 60-150Hz range. Mis-matched subs could render that, but suffer at lower EDM show frequencies due to phase induced cancellation.
And yes, I am of the opinion that horn-loaded subs do project (throw deeper). One can see that effect on polar-plots of their response. A horn is a wave/pressure transformer, greatly by the effect of compression. Said compression is accomplished by limiting the radiation pattern of the transducer in a expanding flared waveguide (horn).
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I have to tell the truth, I have been in the music world for years, and if you tell me to make a live sound from a band in a little time I can get it, but I'm not an engineer, I've never studied anything, all just based on experience !
the divers in counter-phase obvious that they cancel, but is it possible that two sub to trumpet, therefore of the same typology have a phase displacement of 180 °?
then in the free parties you see a lot of different divers stacked at random, the sound is always loud, even at several kilometers away
the divers in counter-phase obvious that they cancel, but is it possible that two sub to trumpet, therefore of the same typology have a phase displacement of 180 °?
then in the free parties you see a lot of different divers stacked at random, the sound is always loud, even at several kilometers away
angelodj,
As earlier posted by individuals of the Tham development tream - the Tham15 & 18 share a near identical phase curve. So the will play very well together.
Various dissimilar BR cabs may, or may not sum well.
I've seen pro-consumer level JBL's mixed with Peavey/CV/Etc down a wall at a new club (8 cabs I think). There was effectively no bass due to cancellation on the dance floor. Had the tech shut all the subs off but the two JBL's. Told him to increase the sub feed gain to just below distortion. Suddenly there's bass, within a few minutes people started to enter the previously empty dance floor.
As earlier posted by individuals of the Tham development tream - the Tham15 & 18 share a near identical phase curve. So the will play very well together.
Various dissimilar BR cabs may, or may not sum well.
I've seen pro-consumer level JBL's mixed with Peavey/CV/Etc down a wall at a new club (8 cabs I think). There was effectively no bass due to cancellation on the dance floor. Had the tech shut all the subs off but the two JBL's. Told him to increase the sub feed gain to just below distortion. Suddenly there's bass, within a few minutes people started to enter the previously empty dance floor.
I have noticed that often even in rooms with identical subwoofers the wrong position of the subwoofers causes empty areas without bass.
example:
local with circular dance floor and the subwoofers placed at the equidistant edges: in the center of the dance floor no bass.
the Saturday after the subwoofers were all aligned to the right and left of the console, the bass was very loud throughout the room. Always the same subwoofers and the same amplifiers!
example:
local with circular dance floor and the subwoofers placed at the equidistant edges: in the center of the dance floor no bass.
the Saturday after the subwoofers were all aligned to the right and left of the console, the bass was very loud throughout the room. Always the same subwoofers and the same amplifiers!
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