ace3000_1 said:
if something is based on an assumption (an assumption that is apparently untrue), can that something be called "fact"?
Just curious.
ace3000_1 said:
Imagine you are about to read a book to your daughter at night, and all in a sudden the authority tells you that they had to shut down the electricity supply to your neighborhood because today's tide isn't as strong.
Imagine you have prepared wonderful meals and put them in your refrig the day before for your party. When you get home, you noticed that of course the refrig isn't working as the wind is not strong enough.
Imagine you are in an elevator with your family to your apartment. All in a sudden everything goes out and the elevator is filled with darkness and panic because it is an overcast day.
And you will still be happy paying your utility bill every month? 🙂
Reliability, or dependability, for electricity is as important as electricity itself. If we don't have reliable electricity, our societies cannot function.
We have much better control over gas or coal supply than we do over sun shine, wind or tide. think about it that way.
and I haven't started on the environmental cost of those windmills or tide stations or solar panels, 🙂
ace3000_1 said:
the sun is free? really? Let's do a math. we consume about 14 trillion kwh of electricity (btw, that's a 2001 figure). solar energy is about 1kw / sq meter at noon and assume that we get 2-hours of good sunshines a day, 365 days a year. solar panels are about 1-2% efficiency. the earth surface is 150 million sq meters.
can you calculate how many sq meters of solar panels we need? what percentage of earth surface will have to be covered by those panels?
Now, think one step beyond it. When you cover the surface of the earth with those panels, what happens to the energy that otherwise would have hit the panels? to those grass underneath those panels? those microbes underneath those panels? etc. what are the environmental impacts of all of the above?
You still think solar energy is free? Hope not.
You may want to rethink the environmental impact of windmills and tide stations along the same line. But for starters, nothing is free.
ace3000_1 said:
I didn't say that nuclear power is pollution free (nothing is. you breath and you pollute the air for example. so hold your breath, you greenies, 🙂). But it is the cleanest, but still dirty, energy source we got so far.
ace3000_1 said:
the same thign can be said about your city sawage discharge. Will you stop using your toilets? 🙂
SY said:
I am not sure about that. know-hows about nuclear weaponery are widely available - witness the latest fiasco in Pakistan.
Someone made the assertion after 9/11 that it is almost a sure thing that in the next 50 years we will have a terrorist-detonated nuclear bomb on the US soil.
A sad but probably true statement.
SY said:
I would agree. it is hard to prevent the proliferation of nuclear know-hows.
But that has nothing to do with nuclear power plants and their safety.
You're thinking about it in too narrow a sense. The danger is fallout when something very conventional is done to take out the plant. It becomes the active ingredient in a dirty bomb. As much as we can try to secure plants, we can't be certain that the spirit of innovation amongst the various world death cults won't find a way around whatever we try to do.
As you correctly point out in a different context, you've got to think in terms of total number of plants needed and what it would take to really secure them, if such were possible.
As you correctly point out in a different context, you've got to think in terms of total number of plants needed and what it would take to really secure them, if such were possible.
SY said:
you cannot really secure anything, let alone a nuclear power plant. that's a given.
the question is can they be reasonably secured? I think we can do that.
millwood said:
Actually a good photovoltaic cell is on the order of 20% efficient, and that is increasing. I believe photovoltaic efficiencies in the mid 30% are available, but it has been about 5 years since I've done any significant investigations of solar cells. The rest of your pointers. millwood, are completely valid, though you completely forget to mention the exceptionally high amounts of "toxic waste" that result from manufacturing photovoltaic cells. I can assure you that disposal of such waste doesn't make photovoltaic power too attractive.
There was a pretty thorough thread on our forums about a year ago on the generation of power. The best plan we came up with was underground nuclear breeder power plants with the waste being placed in the earth's crust near a subduction area where it would be harmlessly subducted into the mantle and added to all the other radioactive "stuff" down there.
I would be most surprised if a fusion reaction yielding a >1 lamda will happen in the next 2 decades, let alone producing power in a plant. The physics of it just aren't conducive to producing power from fusion. And before someone argues with me, I would like to kindly suggest they read up about it.
Mark
ace3000_1 said:
The latest craze in power generation is the combined cycle. It is a natural gas, or kerosene, fired turbine whos exhaust creates the heat for a boiler whos steam is used to spin a steam turbine.
PassFan said:
The latest craze in power generation is the combined cycle.
regen has been around for a long time, in for example integrated mills, or paper mills as such. the problem with such regen is that a lot of those gas turbines are used for peak demand and running them 24x7 may not be as economical. and regen faciltiies don't adjust well to quick ups and quick downs.
you are missleaded or ignorant, the war was as good as won without that shamefull dirty bomb you are so proud of.
you are right about the ignorance in the statement " We dont need petrol anymore , we have electric power ."
btw, the USA was not able to throw the bomb earlier, they first had to steal the nuclear material from a german submarine.
Millwood and Till please , i dont see any ignorance in the statement , i will hold not call anything to you , after all . Please consider :
My company has a large fleet of electric powered veyhicles to operate deliveries in cities and we only have advantages .Less pollution , less petrol dependance .And if more and more companys do the same ?! I was trying to say that there is a way , or more then one , to diminish petrol importance and that must be understood by the petrol addict and mighty
polluter USA . Face Kiotto . Petrol must decrease its importance.
I use to walk 10 minutes to reach my job , i must confess that
sometimes i must stop breathing normally by a minute because of diesel smoke .
No more invasions of Islamic democracy incompatible countries with petrol disguised arguments .
They have the right to live the way they do , i if not let them change it by themselves . Or they can think US democracy stinks
and attack you too , its the same logic .
Go teach democracy lessons to North Korea or China ,or you are afraid of !!! You don't fool Europe . Here in Portugal the public opinion doesn't support you mostly . I woud be very satisfied if you get out of Azores one day .
The truth is that USA wants another Vietnam lesson, i say , maybe you will get it .
My company has a large fleet of electric powered veyhicles to operate deliveries in cities and we only have advantages .Less pollution , less petrol dependance .And if more and more companys do the same ?! I was trying to say that there is a way , or more then one , to diminish petrol importance and that must be understood by the petrol addict and mighty
polluter USA . Face Kiotto . Petrol must decrease its importance.
I use to walk 10 minutes to reach my job , i must confess that
sometimes i must stop breathing normally by a minute because of diesel smoke .
No more invasions of Islamic democracy incompatible countries with petrol disguised arguments .
They have the right to live the way they do , i if not let them change it by themselves . Or they can think US democracy stinks
and attack you too , its the same logic .
Go teach democracy lessons to North Korea or China ,or you are afraid of !!! You don't fool Europe . Here in Portugal the public opinion doesn't support you mostly . I woud be very satisfied if you get out of Azores one day .
The truth is that USA wants another Vietnam lesson, i say , maybe you will get it .
till said:
and where do you think the Germans got their nuclear materials? the Japanese, 🙂
TugaTweaker said:
where do you think that electricity come from?
🙂
TugaTweaker said:
yeah. Build more nuclear power plants.
TugaTweaker said:
wait for those guys to switch to gas engines, 🙂
TugaTweaker said:
for your information, you will find more democracy in China than in all islamic countries combined, and multiply that by 100 then you are close to the right answer.
when was last time you were in China?
Terrorist in the U.S. Delegation to Geneva
Below we reprint a letter dated March 27, 2004 from the Cuban ambassador at the UN to Secretary General Kofi Annan, reporting that an official U.S. delegate to the Human Rights Commission participated in acts of terrorism.
Your Excellency:
I have the honor of directing myself to Your Excellency to denounce before the United Nations the presence of a well-known terrorist of Cuban origin, Luis Zuñiga Rey, on the official U.S. delegation to the 60th session of the Human Rights Commission (HRC) presently convened in Geneva. The attitude adopted by the U.S. government is paradoxical when the images of the terrorist attacks perpetrated in Madrid last March 11, costing the lives of more than 200 people, are still fresh.
For those who combating terrorism in an honorable way, it is a real affront and a complete lack of respect to have -- under the disguise of a diplomat and delegation member to such a forum -- an individual with a long and well-known criminal history, as confirmed in a report by Mr. Enrique Bernales Ballesteros, UN Special Rapporteur on mercenary activities, which was presented precisely before the HRC in 1999.
In that report, the UN Special Rapporteur points to Luis Zuñiga Rey, of Cuban origin and based in Miami, as a member of the underground security of the so-called Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF), a paramilitary structure.
According to Bernales Ballesteros’ 1999 report, Zuñiga Rey recruited Guatemalan citizen Percy Francisco Alvarado Godoy to study points in Cuba that were vulnerable and susceptible to terrorist attacks, such as hotels, thermoelectric plants and oil refineries, among others.
It was possible to frustrate the actions promoted by Zuñiga Rey due to the fact that Alvarado Godoy was a Cuban State Security agent.
The current occupant of a seat within the U.S. delegation left Cuba illegally in 1973, by entering the Guantánamo naval base and, on his arrival in Miami, enrolled in a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operation that consisted of a plan to infiltrate Cuban territory in order commit sabotage and assassinate the country’s main leaders.
That plan was neutralized by the Cuban authorities in August 1974. Zuñiga Rey was arrested with explosives and weapons. After standing trial by the due legal authorities, he was sentenced to 25 years’ imprisonment, of which he completed only 14, being released in 1988. Upon his return to the United States he linked up with the CANF and was directly or indirectly involved in planting explosive devices in Havana hotels and Cuban hospitals.
The decision by the U.S. government to include Luis Zuñiga Rey as a member of its official delegation to the Human Rights Commission currently convened in Geneva is not only disrespectful to the United Nations; at the same time, the presence of an individual with such a record places the security of this venue at risk, as well as that of all of the delegates now participating in the labors of the 60th session of the Human Rights Commission.
Of what value is the report presented in 1999 by Mr. Enrique Bernales Ballesteros, the UN Special Rapporteur on mercenary activities to the Human Rights Commission?
Is it possible that five years after its presentation to this forum the report has become a dead letter and an object of mockery on the part of a member state that proclaims to be a standard-bearer in the international struggle against international terrorism?
Is it possible to remain silent in face of an individual with such a criminal and terrorist history in a body whose fundamental objective to date has been for the full application of human rights?
Cuba hopes that the HRC’s current president will adopt the appropriate measures for dealing with an unsuitable delegate and act accordingly. If the presence of Zuñiga Rey is accepted as a normal event, terrorism is being blessed instead of combated, and an erroneous message of complicity and impunity is being sent to the convicted perpetrators of terrorist acts.
Cuba’s delegation is willing to offer more detailed information on this notorious terrorist and his prior activities. . . .
Orlando Requeijo Gual, Ambassador, Permanent Representative
Below we reprint a letter dated March 27, 2004 from the Cuban ambassador at the UN to Secretary General Kofi Annan, reporting that an official U.S. delegate to the Human Rights Commission participated in acts of terrorism.
Your Excellency:
I have the honor of directing myself to Your Excellency to denounce before the United Nations the presence of a well-known terrorist of Cuban origin, Luis Zuñiga Rey, on the official U.S. delegation to the 60th session of the Human Rights Commission (HRC) presently convened in Geneva. The attitude adopted by the U.S. government is paradoxical when the images of the terrorist attacks perpetrated in Madrid last March 11, costing the lives of more than 200 people, are still fresh.
For those who combating terrorism in an honorable way, it is a real affront and a complete lack of respect to have -- under the disguise of a diplomat and delegation member to such a forum -- an individual with a long and well-known criminal history, as confirmed in a report by Mr. Enrique Bernales Ballesteros, UN Special Rapporteur on mercenary activities, which was presented precisely before the HRC in 1999.
In that report, the UN Special Rapporteur points to Luis Zuñiga Rey, of Cuban origin and based in Miami, as a member of the underground security of the so-called Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF), a paramilitary structure.
According to Bernales Ballesteros’ 1999 report, Zuñiga Rey recruited Guatemalan citizen Percy Francisco Alvarado Godoy to study points in Cuba that were vulnerable and susceptible to terrorist attacks, such as hotels, thermoelectric plants and oil refineries, among others.
It was possible to frustrate the actions promoted by Zuñiga Rey due to the fact that Alvarado Godoy was a Cuban State Security agent.
The current occupant of a seat within the U.S. delegation left Cuba illegally in 1973, by entering the Guantánamo naval base and, on his arrival in Miami, enrolled in a Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) operation that consisted of a plan to infiltrate Cuban territory in order commit sabotage and assassinate the country’s main leaders.
That plan was neutralized by the Cuban authorities in August 1974. Zuñiga Rey was arrested with explosives and weapons. After standing trial by the due legal authorities, he was sentenced to 25 years’ imprisonment, of which he completed only 14, being released in 1988. Upon his return to the United States he linked up with the CANF and was directly or indirectly involved in planting explosive devices in Havana hotels and Cuban hospitals.
The decision by the U.S. government to include Luis Zuñiga Rey as a member of its official delegation to the Human Rights Commission currently convened in Geneva is not only disrespectful to the United Nations; at the same time, the presence of an individual with such a record places the security of this venue at risk, as well as that of all of the delegates now participating in the labors of the 60th session of the Human Rights Commission.
Of what value is the report presented in 1999 by Mr. Enrique Bernales Ballesteros, the UN Special Rapporteur on mercenary activities to the Human Rights Commission?
Is it possible that five years after its presentation to this forum the report has become a dead letter and an object of mockery on the part of a member state that proclaims to be a standard-bearer in the international struggle against international terrorism?
Is it possible to remain silent in face of an individual with such a criminal and terrorist history in a body whose fundamental objective to date has been for the full application of human rights?
Cuba hopes that the HRC’s current president will adopt the appropriate measures for dealing with an unsuitable delegate and act accordingly. If the presence of Zuñiga Rey is accepted as a normal event, terrorism is being blessed instead of combated, and an erroneous message of complicity and impunity is being sent to the convicted perpetrators of terrorist acts.
Cuba’s delegation is willing to offer more detailed information on this notorious terrorist and his prior activities. . . .
Orlando Requeijo Gual, Ambassador, Permanent Representative
To defeat your enemy, you must first understand them.
In reality, the Allies demanded surrender terms that any nation would find impossible to accept. Had the terms been even slightly different (though still a complete surrender), they would have most likely worked without the Bomb.
It seems that no one had learned learned anything about the human and national psyche since the Treaty of Versailles. There may have been no build up to WW2 in Europe had they not imposed such crippling reparations.
No war in Europe - perhaps none in the Far East - where would we be now?
That is a popular opinion, but like many, it has grown to be accepted as fact, after telling many times.
In reality, the Allies demanded surrender terms that any nation would find impossible to accept. Had the terms been even slightly different (though still a complete surrender), they would have most likely worked without the Bomb.
It seems that no one had learned learned anything about the human and national psyche since the Treaty of Versailles. There may have been no build up to WW2 in Europe had they not imposed such crippling reparations.
No war in Europe - perhaps none in the Far East - where would we be now?
TugaTweaker,
i can´t speak for your country, but in germany about 80 to 90 % of the energie used by traffic, households, industrie, whatever is sourced from non nuclear fossile minerals like oil and coal. You see even they use nuclear power plants, the truth is that tecnologie did produce only a few % of energie needed and did cause more costs than for example coal / per MW. The alternative energie sources are about a few % of that....
There is no altnernative at the moment, there was a nuclear hype and there is an alternative energie hype,and some noninformed still belive in nuclear hype... The main reason for that technologie was ever military interest. The main reason for alternative energie technologie over here is we could export that technologie.
i can´t speak for your country, but in germany about 80 to 90 % of the energie used by traffic, households, industrie, whatever is sourced from non nuclear fossile minerals like oil and coal. You see even they use nuclear power plants, the truth is that tecnologie did produce only a few % of energie needed and did cause more costs than for example coal / per MW. The alternative energie sources are about a few % of that....
There is no altnernative at the moment, there was a nuclear hype and there is an alternative energie hype,and some noninformed still belive in nuclear hype... The main reason for that technologie was ever military interest. The main reason for alternative energie technologie over here is we could export that technologie.
Re: To defeat your enemy, you must first understand them.
I am just curious: what terms did the allied demand and why is that impossible to accept?
Hum. What are then "nuclear fossile minerals"?
🙂
dhaen said:
I am just curious: what terms did the allied demand and why is that impossible to accept?
till said:
Hum. What are then "nuclear fossile minerals"?
🙂
Terrorist
The real crisis is the one we are watching ...
A decadent superpower on war to get petrol that
poisons the world ...
Here in Portugal we are using kitchen oils used to fry , and we
make fuel that isn't inferior to diesel .Think about the dimension of this waist that goes directly to the ambient ...
In Brazil alcohol moves cars , i' m ignorant ...
We can take hidrogen from water , no ... i'm ignorant ...
The real crisis is the one we are watching ...
A decadent superpower on war to get petrol that
poisons the world ...
Here in Portugal we are using kitchen oils used to fry , and we
make fuel that isn't inferior to diesel .Think about the dimension of this waist that goes directly to the ambient ...
In Brazil alcohol moves cars , i' m ignorant ...
We can take hidrogen from water , no ... i'm ignorant ...
that indeed is the real prob. the us citizens use about 3 times the electricity / person than we in germany. Other countries in the EU, also well developed, high living standart (probably better than average in the US) use some time less than us / each person. Poor countries have some magnitudes less, there are also third worl countries with less money flow /nation and year than germany has alone on tobaco tax/ year. Same counts for freshwater used. The US needs about 100 times more / head and day as the really poor countries. Well developed democracys in europe with high living standarts and better health systems, medical care, livespan like scandinavian countries still need more like a fraction than US citizens. I sometimes wonder if they did not learn to turn a water valve off. The worst is, most of them seem to be proud of this, happy with it, and love idiots like their president... I´m sad about that much mess and ignorance in that beautifull country overe there in the new world.
Re: Terrorist
bio diesel has been around for a long time, and if I were to make a sweeping argument like the one you made above, I would at least first figure out how much of Portugal's energy consumption comes from bio diesel and how much you are paying for it. You will be surprised.
same here in the US. But your above statement is gross exaggeration to say the least.
this is very much like a conversation with an ignorant greenie: they truly have no idea what's going on and their tunnel vision allows them to focus on a very small piece of the macro picture and extropolate from there.
TugaTweaker said:
bio diesel has been around for a long time, and if I were to make a sweeping argument like the one you made above, I would at least first figure out how much of Portugal's energy consumption comes from bio diesel and how much you are paying for it. You will be surprised.
TugaTweaker said:
same here in the US. But your above statement is gross exaggeration to say the least.
this is very much like a conversation with an ignorant greenie: they truly have no idea what's going on and their tunnel vision allows them to focus on a very small piece of the macro picture and extropolate from there.
Re: Terrorist
how does that process work? what does it take to produce hydrogen from water?
🙂
TugaTweaker said:
how does that process work? what does it take to produce hydrogen from water?
🙂
till said:
that's indeed true. and if you unwind 200 years, europe was clearly head and shoulder above the rest of the world. Now, try to name 10 european businesses that are truly global leaders?
what's important to a country is not where it is right now, but where it is headed. As far as global competitiveness is concerned, Europe has been on a steady decline since WW2.
i suppose you know why.
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