The latest,
The Tantalum are in and staying in.
After changing the cathode of the driver tube to diode bias.
In the past I hated tantalum resistors...I just could not live with them. (in all positions)
In this case they are staying in, the question you have to ask is why😕
In the past I used them in strategic positions maybe one or two.
Regards
M. Gregg
The Tantalum are in and staying in.
After changing the cathode of the driver tube to diode bias.
In the past I hated tantalum resistors...I just could not live with them. (in all positions)
In this case they are staying in, the question you have to ask is why😕
In the past I used them in strategic positions maybe one or two.
Regards
M. Gregg
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Strange. These are among the very few boutique parts i have been liking since the first time i tried them - 30 years ago. They used to seem pricey but today they are an outright bargain. Tried z-foils recently - spectacular, but not an easy decision for all systems.
How many shottkys do you use for bias? What type? Tempted to replace an led array in my preamp...
Hi,
Tantalum resistors are great at projecting the mid-band. They're not what I'd call neutral, I view them as "chef's" components. Handy to correct some balance deficiency.
Z-foil or other naked resistors are to my ears incredibly neutral sounding, revealing to the point where I wonder why so many scientists are so recalcitrant to accept the importance of materials and their impact on sound reproduction....
Materials do have an impact on sound, there's no denying it.
Cheers, 😉
Tantalum resistors are great at projecting the mid-band. They're not what I'd call neutral, I view them as "chef's" components. Handy to correct some balance deficiency.
Z-foil or other naked resistors are to my ears incredibly neutral sounding, revealing to the point where I wonder why so many scientists are so recalcitrant to accept the importance of materials and their impact on sound reproduction....
Materials do have an impact on sound, there's no denying it.
Cheers, 😉
😕 neutral sounding, followed by ...do have an impact on sound. Sorry, these to remarks appear to me rather contradictory, mmm?
Pardon me Frank, but for once this statement seems to me to border on belligerence, to be kind! Your experience, as mentioned several times in this thread, in the end gaining the status of dogma??
Where is your data? ... otherwise no more than anecdotal experiences of a few, contradicted as often by different observations of others. I can stop right here and first refer you to my seemingly ignored post #16; no comment noticed from you there. I am afraid science is not democratic (whatever that word might mean these days ...); observations per se, indicative as they might be, has never been regarded as proof in that field - particularly not in these days with instruments capable of many times the sensitivity of human hearing.
It often seems to much to expect of subjectivists to at least study all relevant factors - need I state which others? (Excuse me if I am firm on this, but in my day I had to walk to libraries and hunt for study results by phoning/posting to research centres abroad in order to get educated; at present one can be a very effective arm-chair student by merely exercising a few finger muscles.)
So is it too much to ask, kindly, that folks at least show evidence of having attempted to study the full relevant field of human hearing including the vagaries of psycho-acoustical perception, before dictating to scientists how they should do their job? It is all there for the pushing of a few keys, researched and packaged!
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JP, on more than one forum I come by your posts and it is with great interest I read your messages. You and Frank are experienced builders. I understand your viewpoints w.r.t. the audio hobby and I hold it impossible both camps to agree in the end. Personally I listen to the advises of senior hobbyists who tell me to use a certain rectifier for instance, keeping in mind that audible differences arrive from changes in currents as a result of tube wear or changes in interelectrode capacitance. The sometimes subtle differences are mocked by unexperienced persons who know it all, they think. Their strong believe in the technical guru can't be changed without complete rethinking of audio and human hearing.
Hi,
Johan, allow me to explain:
Before we had "naked" bulk foil resistors we had plain bulk foil resistors.
The latter were encapsulated, the former are not. Hence, lack of material and the audible effect thereof.
Well, in this case, and quite a few others for that matter, it is unreasonable to expect scientific proof as to the best of my knowledge there is no scientific data that would indisputably suggest all resistors sound/measure alike or otherwise. (And if such data would exist then that still does not prove or disprove what we hear)
I've never heard of or seen any measurements of tantalum resistors either. If these exist then I'll be the first to have a look.
Still, IME (and that of thousands of others) there are audible differences between resistors. Not just carbon film versus metal film ones for instance but also between various brands of either of them.
Also, keep in mind that when I give my opinion on the subject I base it not just on my own experience and I certainly would not call a one time event "experience" either.
Ciao, 😉
Johan, allow me to explain:
Before we had "naked" bulk foil resistors we had plain bulk foil resistors.
The latter were encapsulated, the former are not. Hence, lack of material and the audible effect thereof.
Well, in this case, and quite a few others for that matter, it is unreasonable to expect scientific proof as to the best of my knowledge there is no scientific data that would indisputably suggest all resistors sound/measure alike or otherwise. (And if such data would exist then that still does not prove or disprove what we hear)
I've never heard of or seen any measurements of tantalum resistors either. If these exist then I'll be the first to have a look.
Still, IME (and that of thousands of others) there are audible differences between resistors. Not just carbon film versus metal film ones for instance but also between various brands of either of them.
Also, keep in mind that when I give my opinion on the subject I base it not just on my own experience and I certainly would not call a one time event "experience" either.
Ciao, 😉
I must agree,
If I accept scientific proof then there should be no sound difference.
However I cannot explain what I am hearing..If its nothing then many others can hear it as well. If its psycho acoustic then OK its just auto suggestion..but its interesting that its a lasting suggestion to the point of after a month or so if I don't like the sound I will rip out components that I just can't live with, and putting others in until you reach a point where you can live with it.
This auto suggestion situation I have been living with since the age of about 14, and if I try to convince myself that is all rubbish and build equipment it sounds OK..change a component and say to myself there will be no difference turn it on and wham its there! Its interesting change the components back and they don't sound the same as before and over about 30 seconds you seem to hear them change back to the sound as it was before.
This madness can take you to the point where, when I was younger I think I could hear a new solder joint (Burn in) over about a minute. Yes that's how stupid it is..Get a solder sucker and remove all the lead solder from a circuit board and solder with wonder solder or lead free and Bang its in your face again.
You could say its completely nuts..and I would have to agree..but I think I hear a change..
This I think "I hear a change" is enough that if I have changed components that I don't like the sound of even if it meant stripping out metal work and awkward parts to get to something and change it back I will, because the alternative is throw the equipment in the bin because I wont use it.
Note its interesting that this has NOTHING to do with cost..I will quite happily remove a £20.00 resistor and put back a 20p one if it sounds better to me. So this isn't a self satisfaction thing, ie I have the most expensive build or components in some equipment.
I remember using Tantalum resistors in a build in the preamp section and ripping the lot out because at the time I hated it! about 1980..
I could not understand what or why people would even contemplate using them..until a recent build where I think I understand that what works with (normal components) is a very different mix that works with tantalum.
Up until this point I would only use them in strategic positions..but never as a full build. But this is complete rubbish because in science they all sound the same..
Regards
M. Gregg
If I accept scientific proof then there should be no sound difference.
However I cannot explain what I am hearing..If its nothing then many others can hear it as well. If its psycho acoustic then OK its just auto suggestion..but its interesting that its a lasting suggestion to the point of after a month or so if I don't like the sound I will rip out components that I just can't live with, and putting others in until you reach a point where you can live with it.
This auto suggestion situation I have been living with since the age of about 14, and if I try to convince myself that is all rubbish and build equipment it sounds OK..change a component and say to myself there will be no difference turn it on and wham its there! Its interesting change the components back and they don't sound the same as before and over about 30 seconds you seem to hear them change back to the sound as it was before.
This madness can take you to the point where, when I was younger I think I could hear a new solder joint (Burn in) over about a minute. Yes that's how stupid it is..Get a solder sucker and remove all the lead solder from a circuit board and solder with wonder solder or lead free and Bang its in your face again.
You could say its completely nuts..and I would have to agree..but I think I hear a change..
This I think "I hear a change" is enough that if I have changed components that I don't like the sound of even if it meant stripping out metal work and awkward parts to get to something and change it back I will, because the alternative is throw the equipment in the bin because I wont use it.
Note its interesting that this has NOTHING to do with cost..I will quite happily remove a £20.00 resistor and put back a 20p one if it sounds better to me. So this isn't a self satisfaction thing, ie I have the most expensive build or components in some equipment.
I remember using Tantalum resistors in a build in the preamp section and ripping the lot out because at the time I hated it! about 1980..
I could not understand what or why people would even contemplate using them..until a recent build where I think I understand that what works with (normal components) is a very different mix that works with tantalum.
Up until this point I would only use them in strategic positions..but never as a full build. But this is complete rubbish because in science they all sound the same..
Regards
M. Gregg
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That's an interesting comment..because you are listening to the components and circuit that create that music..If what you hear you like great.
But it would be interesting to hear your response would you upgrade a piece of kit to get an improvement or do you stick with what you have..
Can you put 3 CD players or amps etc together and have a preference for the sound of one of them?
The interesting question would be if someone bought out your favourite combination but had put one of the other insides in it would you notice.
Ie a quad inside a nakamichi case.
Its interesting to note that the first time a thought I could hear a difference I was not aware there could be one..ie I had never been told there could even be a difference between carbon composite and MF..but of course the noise floor is not in normal hearing..PS I don't like Holco.. 😀
Regards
M. Gregg
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One thing I would add,
Is this limited to the DIY community..because you can buy equipment that sounds great and it uses standard components..
the only trouble is if you change parts inside them..NOT VALUES..part makes types I can hear a difference.
I'm not saying its always better because its not..but there is a change..
Now if this was true..ie not just (I think I hear a change) then manufacturers would have to be aware of this..however they use standard components..so many of the DIY community must be nuts..😀
Or do manufacturers build with different components and do listening tests..before the final production? (even though they can see no measured difference between a 1p MF and a £10 part).
Regards
M. Gregg
Is this limited to the DIY community..because you can buy equipment that sounds great and it uses standard components..
the only trouble is if you change parts inside them..NOT VALUES..part makes types I can hear a difference.
I'm not saying its always better because its not..but there is a change..
Now if this was true..ie not just (I think I hear a change) then manufacturers would have to be aware of this..however they use standard components..so many of the DIY community must be nuts..😀
Or do manufacturers build with different components and do listening tests..before the final production? (even though they can see no measured difference between a 1p MF and a £10 part).
Regards
M. Gregg
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Thank's for the post,
Yes I find I can tweak and at some point I just lose interest and just listen..its normally when other changes seem to make it worse or I can hear no change..The equipment stays in place for a time and then I'm drawn to the next build..
Interestingly a few amps have stayed in my system for quite a few years..
Regards
M. Gregg
Thanks for the link Frank, interesting.
It reminds me of that other related thing, the 'Pyramid Effect'.
In short, it is about two people who have a slightly different opinion about the quality of, say, a DAC. As each tries to convince the other of their own view, they cannot help but to emphasize their differences and exaggerate their point. So, while discussing and trying to convince each other, their differences continue to widen and widen until they have almost completely opposing views! This is a very common thing in politics for instance.
It is called the pyramid effect as the situation can metaphorically be seen as the two persons standing on the top of a pyramid, very close together, and sliding down opposite slopes during the discussion to literally end up on opposite sides.
It is quite often seen here as well.
Jan
It reminds me of that other related thing, the 'Pyramid Effect'.
In short, it is about two people who have a slightly different opinion about the quality of, say, a DAC. As each tries to convince the other of their own view, they cannot help but to emphasize their differences and exaggerate their point. So, while discussing and trying to convince each other, their differences continue to widen and widen until they have almost completely opposing views! This is a very common thing in politics for instance.
It is called the pyramid effect as the situation can metaphorically be seen as the two persons standing on the top of a pyramid, very close together, and sliding down opposite slopes during the discussion to literally end up on opposite sides.
It is quite often seen here as well.
Jan
Frank, an entertaining piece. I try to avoid Stereophile, so thanks for pointing out a good article!
The outstanding truth in there is that the Levellers (those who claim that everything sounds the same, unless the rules of school-child physics have been violated) - will never contribute anything worthwhile to the progress of amplifier design.
The truth of this assertion may be verified by a study of the circuits posted by the Levellers here on DIYAudio (ie those that repeatedly attack anyone asking innocently whether one type of component is likely to sound good or bad in a given circuit position). Their designs, if they even present any, are certain to be lack-lustre recycling of decades-old work.
What is interesting is that if you talk to the guys designing the kit that gets used to **MAKE** recordings (So folks who design mic transducer amplifiers and the like) you mostly get hard science.
That is not to say that plenty of listening does not go on, it does of course, but even at the high end of that market the experience is that if you can hear a difference you can also easily measure it (The opposite does not always hold), now figuring out how the perceptual difference and the measured change correlate is a hard problem.
I don't think I have **EVER** see bulk foil used in something like a microphone impedance converter stage, the naked bulk foil thing seems to be very much an artifact of the repro end of the chain (As does the avoidence of things like tone controls, which the guys doing the recording seldom think twice about using).
Regards, Dan.
That is not to say that plenty of listening does not go on, it does of course, but even at the high end of that market the experience is that if you can hear a difference you can also easily measure it (The opposite does not always hold), now figuring out how the perceptual difference and the measured change correlate is a hard problem.
I don't think I have **EVER** see bulk foil used in something like a microphone impedance converter stage, the naked bulk foil thing seems to be very much an artifact of the repro end of the chain (As does the avoidence of things like tone controls, which the guys doing the recording seldom think twice about using).
Regards, Dan.
I was talking to a guy from the BBC engineering Dept (A friend of a friend).
He had heard about audiophile stuff as he put it and asked me why I even gave it a second thought..
Then he said but..it does sound quite good..
I said well and told him my thoughts..after a couple of hours..he said thinking about it even a choke has a noisy and quiet end of the winding even if it makes no difference if its on the inside or outside of the winding..
I never thought about it he said..
I always assumed this kind of stuff was done in the design stage so you just don't think about it..
And that was that..
Regards
M. Gregg
He had heard about audiophile stuff as he put it and asked me why I even gave it a second thought..
Then he said but..it does sound quite good..
I said well and told him my thoughts..after a couple of hours..he said thinking about it even a choke has a noisy and quiet end of the winding even if it makes no difference if its on the inside or outside of the winding..
I never thought about it he said..
I always assumed this kind of stuff was done in the design stage so you just don't think about it..
And that was that..
Regards
M. Gregg
"Their designs, if they even present any, are certain to be lack-lustre recycling of decades-old work."
That is a pretty outrageous statement! Who exactly are they?
But I'm sure you have lots of quotable examples to support this, since you are so certain.
Nah, I thought not ....
That is a pretty outrageous statement! Who exactly are they?
But I'm sure you have lots of quotable examples to support this, since you are so certain.
Nah, I thought not ....
Yep always get lots of straw men in this particular debate (On both sides) just the way it goes.
Regards, Dan.
Regards, Dan.
Well I'm pretty sure the guy from the BBC never gave it a second thought..
It wasn't important enough to him.
If you think about it..how would you apply this to that kind of industry its to unpredictable, engineering for electronics as in industry tried and tested.
Regards
M. Gregg
It is much easier to settle the question the other way round (since a null result is enough to prove my point):
Show us an amplifier design, offered by any contributor here, with a track record of aggressive Leveller behaviour, in the terms I noted:
those that repeatedly attack anyone asking innocently whether one type of component is likely to sound good or bad in a given circuit position
.......which is clear enough to regulars here.
Mostly, you get a Null result - no designs at all offered by Levellers of the nit-picking set.
So, show me a contribution - a schematic - that advances amplifier design from these quarters, and we may have something to debate.
My argument merely reflects the perfectly logical point, to this effect, raised in the Article linked above.
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