What I've been able to find in Italian only:
http://www.audiofaidate.org/it/materiale/uni%20se%20ultimo.pdf
Tango # 10429 : Prodotto custom. Di fatto il canto
del cigno della vecchia Tango.
Piccolo
Trasformatore universale da 2,5K 3,5K, 5K e
secondario a 8-16 ohm in permalloy 78% .
Autentico mito, idolatrato anche negli USA, in Italia
penso ce ne siano , pochi esemplari. Induttanza
primaria non generosissima, (11H 50Hz 60mA)
resistenza in cc del primario 173 ohm, rapporto di
trasformazione 24,5 (5Kohm -8ohm)
Case tipo l'XE20-S . Prezzo sopra i 600€ l'uno
(dipende dal canale. Comunque costava di più di
un x10S : l'enorme ferro per la 211)
Translation:
Custom product made by the old Tango.
Small universal transformer with 2.5K, 3.5K, and 5K primary, and secondary with 8 and 16 ohm taps. A legend and idealized also in the USA, in Italy few if any examples.
Primary Inductance is not generous (11H, 50Hz, 60mA) dc resistance of primary 173 ohms, transformation ratio 24.5 (5K:8 ohms)
Compares price to XE20-S; higher than 600 euro depending on distributor, costs more than a single X10S - giant transformer for the 211.. (I think these are single piece prices)
Measured response is -1dB 25Hz from article listed in above link. (HF response looks pretty flat to 20kHz) Distortion at 1W is 0.25% @1kHz, 1% @ 100Hz.. (PX4)
Comments about the sound include "very detailed and well finished," "surgical precision of event recreation," "lacking body" - not sure this last I understood well, it could also mean it is a bit on the lean side. They do say it is a good transformer of fully audiophile mettle. I seem to also infer that this is not a mellow, relaxed sounding transformer.. And may sound better with 300B than the PX4 used for this evaluation.
My Italian incidentally is very, very rusty. A native speaker may provide a much better translation hopefully. I did look up a few words here and there to make sure I understood what I was reading. (I did)
Hope this is of a little help. Not sure given the insane price for these, and their obvious rarity that they would be a contender unless you have a set already. As a swag the price quoted might put them in the > $2K range if you can find them at all. Personally, and FWIW I'd go for a set of Tamura F-5002 (for 300B) for significantly less money.
Koji at EIFL might be able to find you a pair of NOS or good used stock in the Japanese market if you email him, are willing to wait, and are willing/able to pay what he asks.
http://www.audiofaidate.org/it/materiale/uni%20se%20ultimo.pdf
Tango # 10429 : Prodotto custom. Di fatto il canto
del cigno della vecchia Tango.
Piccolo
Trasformatore universale da 2,5K 3,5K, 5K e
secondario a 8-16 ohm in permalloy 78% .
Autentico mito, idolatrato anche negli USA, in Italia
penso ce ne siano , pochi esemplari. Induttanza
primaria non generosissima, (11H 50Hz 60mA)
resistenza in cc del primario 173 ohm, rapporto di
trasformazione 24,5 (5Kohm -8ohm)
Case tipo l'XE20-S . Prezzo sopra i 600€ l'uno
(dipende dal canale. Comunque costava di più di
un x10S : l'enorme ferro per la 211)
Translation:
Custom product made by the old Tango.
Small universal transformer with 2.5K, 3.5K, and 5K primary, and secondary with 8 and 16 ohm taps. A legend and idealized also in the USA, in Italy few if any examples.
Primary Inductance is not generous (11H, 50Hz, 60mA) dc resistance of primary 173 ohms, transformation ratio 24.5 (5K:8 ohms)
Compares price to XE20-S; higher than 600 euro depending on distributor, costs more than a single X10S - giant transformer for the 211.. (I think these are single piece prices)
Measured response is -1dB 25Hz from article listed in above link. (HF response looks pretty flat to 20kHz) Distortion at 1W is 0.25% @1kHz, 1% @ 100Hz.. (PX4)
Comments about the sound include "very detailed and well finished," "surgical precision of event recreation," "lacking body" - not sure this last I understood well, it could also mean it is a bit on the lean side. They do say it is a good transformer of fully audiophile mettle. I seem to also infer that this is not a mellow, relaxed sounding transformer.. And may sound better with 300B than the PX4 used for this evaluation.
My Italian incidentally is very, very rusty. A native speaker may provide a much better translation hopefully. I did look up a few words here and there to make sure I understood what I was reading. (I did)
Hope this is of a little help. Not sure given the insane price for these, and their obvious rarity that they would be a contender unless you have a set already. As a swag the price quoted might put them in the > $2K range if you can find them at all. Personally, and FWIW I'd go for a set of Tamura F-5002 (for 300B) for significantly less money.
Koji at EIFL might be able to find you a pair of NOS or good used stock in the Japanese market if you email him, are willing to wait, and are willing/able to pay what he asks.
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Thank you Kevin, always very helpful.
I think you are right that 600 Euro is for one transformer.
I think you are right that 600 Euro is for one transformer.
I have been informed that high nickel platting is wonderful, particularly from mid on up.
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Looking closely at the photograph of the transformer a couple of things stand out.
First the transformer is rated at 10W which is about what you would expect for a small universal SE transformer..
The primary has a tap for a screen grid (UL operation) and the actual primary impedance and transformation ratios are determined by the selection from a large number of output taps. This I would expect to compromise performance by raising both leakage inductance and stray capacitance.
From reading the article it seems that if you value natural sounding musical reproduction the Tamura (F-7003) might be a better choice. It seems that the Tango is more hifi and less musical, but despite sounding more natural the Tamura is not giving up detail to do it.
It seems in some ways to be a luke warm commentary on this transformer. I have more serious reservations after rereading the comments, some of which I did not translate.
I have some permalloy transformers in my system, and they do seem to provide a little more low level detail, and a nicer midrange and highs than the few non permalloy types I have tried in the same circuit. (26 dht line stage) That said my experience is very limited. I have found the F-5002 to be quite special in some ways, it has many of the qualities of permalloy types, but IMLE may better them at their own game. YMMV and that's nothing more than my completely subjective opinion.
First the transformer is rated at 10W which is about what you would expect for a small universal SE transformer..
The primary has a tap for a screen grid (UL operation) and the actual primary impedance and transformation ratios are determined by the selection from a large number of output taps. This I would expect to compromise performance by raising both leakage inductance and stray capacitance.
From reading the article it seems that if you value natural sounding musical reproduction the Tamura (F-7003) might be a better choice. It seems that the Tango is more hifi and less musical, but despite sounding more natural the Tamura is not giving up detail to do it.
It seems in some ways to be a luke warm commentary on this transformer. I have more serious reservations after rereading the comments, some of which I did not translate.
I have some permalloy transformers in my system, and they do seem to provide a little more low level detail, and a nicer midrange and highs than the few non permalloy types I have tried in the same circuit. (26 dht line stage) That said my experience is very limited. I have found the F-5002 to be quite special in some ways, it has many of the qualities of permalloy types, but IMLE may better them at their own game. YMMV and that's nothing more than my completely subjective opinion.
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Tango transformers with five-digit numbers were special items, so finding a pair will be virtually impossible. You will be a lot better off ordering one from Dave Slagle. I believe he is the only person now making output transformers with 80% nickel cores.
intact audio
I believe he can also do better than the 11H primary inductance of the Tango transformer.
Kevin, the "hi-fi" nature of the Tango may be due to the low inductance and probable thinness in the bass. I would only use a transformer like that for the treble in a bi-amped system.
John
intact audio
I believe he can also do better than the 11H primary inductance of the Tango transformer.
Kevin, the "hi-fi" nature of the Tango may be due to the low inductance and probable thinness in the bass. I would only use a transformer like that for the treble in a bi-amped system.
John
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I completely agree. I believe anything less than 20H - 25H/60mA with a plate resistance of 600 - 700 ohms or so is not going to cut it. I prefer even higher inductance than that within reason.. (No bi-amping here)
I would still think there are better transformers than this universal type for bi-amping for the reasons I mentioned in a previous post.
I think of this design approach as the Swiss Army Knife approach, usable for many things, but in no sense optimized for a specific task.
Dave IMHO is the right guy to ask.
Thank you guys for the input.
What about the XE-20S? This is also a universal OPT like the 10429
What about the XE-20S? This is also a universal OPT like the 10429
I'd talk to Dave Slagle, sounds like you have a fairly demanding application in mind if you are willing to dedicate an amplifier to this range. I just don't think a universal transformer is ever the right way to go, it is a compromise from start to finish.
You can have him wind a transformer optimized very specifically for your application and I would think this would result in a transformer with much better performance than any you could buy off the shelf. Such a transformer would be compact, having minimal magnetization losses since the core would not have to be sized for LF, would have no significant issues with leakage inductance or stray capacitance as it would be both smaller and comparatively less complex than any universal type or one required to handle low frequencies. It should perform measurably better in the midrange than many off the shelf transformers you can buy regardless of price. I also suspect it would be somewhat less expensive.
Dave's transformers also have a certain amount of name recognition amongst the real cognoscenti if that is a concern. All good transformers do not out of Japan come.. 😀 😀
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