I am looking to build a small (under 50L), inexpensive ($200-$250 for ALL materials) sub for use in a small HT setup and came across the Tang Band W8-740C 8" woofer. I was looking at building an enclosure for this box, and thought it would be interesting to try it in an EBS alignment so I could get some extended low end for HT use, as that's what it will be used for about 98% of the time. Even though this makes the box substantially bigger, it seems like I will still get better low end this way than with a 10" that fits my size and budget constraints. Am I wrong? I looked at the Peerless XLS w/ PR and it looks ideal but is out of my price range for this particular project. I can build the whole Tang Band EBS sub for $200. Is there a better answer for what I'm trying to do?
Assuming the Tang Band EBS is the way to go, I need some help optimizing the box size and tuning frequency. I've been using UniBox and a 25L box tuned to 24 Hz looked good to me, but I am a novice and I may not have the right shape for the shelf. I also cross-checked these settings with Speaker Builder and that showed a big hump at the low end instead of the flat shelf in UniBox. Which program is more accurate? Finally, I'm not sure what to expect from room gain. I have messed around a little bit with room response modeling programs but I will be moving pretty frequently so there is no point building the sub for my current setting. I am looking for more of a generic room gain approximation. Does anyone have some good suggestions for me?
One last thing--I know that the port length will be huge so I am planning on using a slotted port.
Thanks in advance for your help!!!
Greg
Assuming the Tang Band EBS is the way to go, I need some help optimizing the box size and tuning frequency. I've been using UniBox and a 25L box tuned to 24 Hz looked good to me, but I am a novice and I may not have the right shape for the shelf. I also cross-checked these settings with Speaker Builder and that showed a big hump at the low end instead of the flat shelf in UniBox. Which program is more accurate? Finally, I'm not sure what to expect from room gain. I have messed around a little bit with room response modeling programs but I will be moving pretty frequently so there is no point building the sub for my current setting. I am looking for more of a generic room gain approximation. Does anyone have some good suggestions for me?
One last thing--I know that the port length will be huge so I am planning on using a slotted port.
Thanks in advance for your help!!!
Greg
I have a few questions....
How low do you wish to go with room gain?
How large of an enclosure can you tolerate?
Is the $200 project budget include driver enclosure and amp or just driver and enclosure?
Go to linearteam.org and download yourself the latest version of WinISD pro. Its some great software for modeling loudspeaker enclosures.
How low do you wish to go with room gain?
How large of an enclosure can you tolerate?
Is the $200 project budget include driver enclosure and amp or just driver and enclosure?
Go to linearteam.org and download yourself the latest version of WinISD pro. Its some great software for modeling loudspeaker enclosures.
Thanks for the reply BassAwdyO...
Basically, I would like the best response curve for home theater use, so I would like usable bass as low as necessary to achieve that. I know that's a nebulous answer, but I don't *know* if it is more impressive to have 3 extra decibels at 30 Hz or 10 more at 20 Hz. I need some advice from the experts there. 😀 Since this will be for a small room, I don't necessarily need to maximize SPL if it would sound better to have a flatter response at the expense of some SPL.
50L is my absolute max, but I would much prefer something under 40L--the smaller, the better. Size is my biggest constraint since I don't want a big hulking box in a small room.
The budget is for all materials--amp, driver, box, etc. The $200 is not fixed...I could go up to $300 but either way this will be a relatively budget sub so I'd prefer to keep it as budget as possible, if you know what I mean.
I think my optimal sub would be the Peerless XLS 10" w/ PR, but it looks like that will be closer to $400-$500 to build.
Part of my question is just the fundamental soundness of using an 8" in an EBS alignment versus using a 10" in a QB3 alignment. In other words, when I model it, it looks like I can get better low end output from the Tang Band 8" in an EBS alignment than I could get from a 10" in a similar size box for a similar price. Sure I could get better output from a 10" in EBS, but then the box is way bigger. And yes, I could get more output from a high discursion 10" in a sealed box with lots of power, but then the price skyrockets. Being a novice, however, I'm worried that I'm missing something with the Tang Band EBS idea that would make it sound terrible in a real world application.
Any thoughts?
Basically, I would like the best response curve for home theater use, so I would like usable bass as low as necessary to achieve that. I know that's a nebulous answer, but I don't *know* if it is more impressive to have 3 extra decibels at 30 Hz or 10 more at 20 Hz. I need some advice from the experts there. 😀 Since this will be for a small room, I don't necessarily need to maximize SPL if it would sound better to have a flatter response at the expense of some SPL.
50L is my absolute max, but I would much prefer something under 40L--the smaller, the better. Size is my biggest constraint since I don't want a big hulking box in a small room.
The budget is for all materials--amp, driver, box, etc. The $200 is not fixed...I could go up to $300 but either way this will be a relatively budget sub so I'd prefer to keep it as budget as possible, if you know what I mean.
I think my optimal sub would be the Peerless XLS 10" w/ PR, but it looks like that will be closer to $400-$500 to build.
Part of my question is just the fundamental soundness of using an 8" in an EBS alignment versus using a 10" in a QB3 alignment. In other words, when I model it, it looks like I can get better low end output from the Tang Band 8" in an EBS alignment than I could get from a 10" in a similar size box for a similar price. Sure I could get better output from a 10" in EBS, but then the box is way bigger. And yes, I could get more output from a high discursion 10" in a sealed box with lots of power, but then the price skyrockets. Being a novice, however, I'm worried that I'm missing something with the Tang Band EBS idea that would make it sound terrible in a real world application.
Any thoughts?
Well, that makes things difficult. With your goals I'd say you could do quite a few different things. I'll say a few things though that might help you out.
As for the enclosure size, with either the 8 or 10 you wont need more than 35 liters for a -6db EBS.
According to WinISD's preprogramed specs the tangband can only handle 120watts while the XLS can take up to 400. The XLS can handle more power, has more surface area, and more Xmax, therefore It will be able to achieve greater SPL. You will need a bigger amp to utilize the extra power handling capability, which will cost more. Looking at the response curves of the XLS and tangband with similar power they are very similar. At 120watts (the tangband's max power) the tangband -6db EBS and the XLS -6db EBS Have nearly the same 20hz output capability right around 98dB. The XLS -6db EBS gives about 3db more output from 25hz up though. The -3db EBS alignments give nearly identical output at 30hz, but the XLS has the same 3db more output, just above 35hz or so.
The question of how low you should go, it just depends on your taste. Some people think it's impressive to have extremely loud bass in the 40-90hz region where bass is heard more than felt, some people think its impressive to have bass that goes down infrasonic where you cant hear a tone at all, but just rattling and you feel the bass. I like something that can do both.
With all that In mind, if it were me, I'd go with the XLS -6db EBS. You dont need an expensive passive radiator, just use a slot port.
For the ~23hz tuning in a 35l box An adequate port would need to be 1"x10" with a length of 36 inches. The port would add about another 10liters, but I think with 35L internal volume, and a 10L port, you'd probably be right around 50L for the entire enclosures external dimensions.
As for the enclosure size, with either the 8 or 10 you wont need more than 35 liters for a -6db EBS.
According to WinISD's preprogramed specs the tangband can only handle 120watts while the XLS can take up to 400. The XLS can handle more power, has more surface area, and more Xmax, therefore It will be able to achieve greater SPL. You will need a bigger amp to utilize the extra power handling capability, which will cost more. Looking at the response curves of the XLS and tangband with similar power they are very similar. At 120watts (the tangband's max power) the tangband -6db EBS and the XLS -6db EBS Have nearly the same 20hz output capability right around 98dB. The XLS -6db EBS gives about 3db more output from 25hz up though. The -3db EBS alignments give nearly identical output at 30hz, but the XLS has the same 3db more output, just above 35hz or so.
The question of how low you should go, it just depends on your taste. Some people think it's impressive to have extremely loud bass in the 40-90hz region where bass is heard more than felt, some people think its impressive to have bass that goes down infrasonic where you cant hear a tone at all, but just rattling and you feel the bass. I like something that can do both.
With all that In mind, if it were me, I'd go with the XLS -6db EBS. You dont need an expensive passive radiator, just use a slot port.
For the ~23hz tuning in a 35l box An adequate port would need to be 1"x10" with a length of 36 inches. The port would add about another 10liters, but I think with 35L internal volume, and a 10L port, you'd probably be right around 50L for the entire enclosures external dimensions.
Im not sure how well a SHIVA would work in a small enclosure. Can someone explain what EBS is anyway?!
who said anything about shiva? A shiva wouldnt work very in an enclosure smaller than 50l unless you like highQ or a linkwitz transform is used. EBS stands for extended bass shelf. What defines the EBS is the shelf that the response curve has before the 24db/octave rolloff below tuning. The shelf must be flat, no peak at Fb. Stephan you have WinISD dont you? If you dont I'd suggest downloading it (its free at linearteam.org) and playing around with some of the preset drivers and alignments. You can choose from sealed, vented, 4th and 6th order bandpass, and passive radiator alignments. For vented alignments the new version of winISD automatically recomends a specific alignment such as a QB3 or a super boom box, or even the EBS. WinISD gives options on alignments for sealed systems, but automatically selects a Qtc of .707 so if you'd like to see other Q's you can select them from the drop down, or just change the box size when you get into the frequency plot.
So, in order for there to be an appreciable difference between the Peerless and the Tang Band, I'd have to give the Peerless significantly more power. Assuming that extra power will cost me $100 or so and the extra cost of the Peerless driver over the Tang Band is already $100, the Peerless sub would basically be double the cost of the Tang Band ($400 vs. $200). Do I have that math right?
Qualitatively, does the Tang Band sub look like a decent option for a small HT system, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I know what the charts look like, but being a novice I can't really translate that in my mind to real world performance. I don't need to feel the bass that much, particularly since I will be living in some sort of apartment for the next few years. I just want to make sure that special effects and the like will sound impressive.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if this sub is a good idea or if there is some clearly superior option that I don't know about. I don't want to spend forever building this thing only to find I can't even hear the special effects in movies or that the Dayton 100 watt, $100 subwoofer from Parts Express blows it out of the water.
Thanks again for your input!
Qualitatively, does the Tang Band sub look like a decent option for a small HT system, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I know what the charts look like, but being a novice I can't really translate that in my mind to real world performance. I don't need to feel the bass that much, particularly since I will be living in some sort of apartment for the next few years. I just want to make sure that special effects and the like will sound impressive.
I guess what I'm trying to figure out is if this sub is a good idea or if there is some clearly superior option that I don't know about. I don't want to spend forever building this thing only to find I can't even hear the special effects in movies or that the Dayton 100 watt, $100 subwoofer from Parts Express blows it out of the water.
Thanks again for your input!
The XLS would give you bass that would surely annoy the neighbors to no end. I'd say for your small apartment the 8" tang band would be great. I havent heard the dayton sub, and they dont have max SPL specs, but I really dont think it would keep up with the tangband 8 EBS even. If you dont care about earth shaking bass, you dont need response below 25hz.
ahhh i see so its just a big ported box?(in theory) that gives a desired response? thanks for clearing that up! i do indeed have winISD but i can barely understand beta so i havn't gone to pro yet. And i was just throwing a driver suggestion out, as alot of people have said shivas work well in reasonably small sized boxes, i didn't make myself clear, sorry.
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