No, absolutely not. Haven't even seen them. I have to go meet him in Pune, and get a first-hand idea of his boxes.navin said:
I've seen the prices at which he sells his subwoofers; the prices are online on www.palesha.com At those prices, it's possible that he's not able to build dead cabinets. In fact, I am quite certain that any commercially sold boxes at those prices will not be able to make cabinets as dead as what you or I can make in DIY mode, maybe by putting in more money. Therefore, if I hear his boxes, it's possible that I'll be hearing his cabinets more than his drivers. Hence, I have a feeling that one can't judge a driver by listening to it in an enclosure, unless that enclosure is super-well-built first. "Old Angshu saying." 😀
any driver is only as good as the XO and box it is designed with.
that is why most reupted specs state teh baffle and / or box size with their response charts.
that is why most reupted specs state teh baffle and / or box size with their response charts.
"Have seen Pioneer tube shaped passive subs for car stereo (priced Rs 5000+) - but thats ready made. No fun. But its true they perform quite well."
true that a speaker component has to be well placed in a well designed box with a well designed XO. no doubt. well, i wasnt talkin bout the pioneer tubes but about the raw pioneer /jvc /blaupunkt components. to be placed on mdf cabinets with specific dimensions and a passive XO if needed. else one could probably implement the XO in the pre amp stage for better control. what say!!
true that a speaker component has to be well placed in a well designed box with a well designed XO. no doubt. well, i wasnt talkin bout the pioneer tubes but about the raw pioneer /jvc /blaupunkt components. to be placed on mdf cabinets with specific dimensions and a passive XO if needed. else one could probably implement the XO in the pre amp stage for better control. what say!!
It's an implementation issue, not a design one
I think I was not very clear in my previous post. While your remarks are absolutely correct, I was referring to something else. I was saying that if I listen to the subwoofers made by MP, I may not be able to find out how good the raw drivers are, because I'll be listening to them in his ready-made subwoofers, and these subwoofers may not have as good a cabinet as what you and I can make. This is because he has price pressures and needs to make his cabinets commercially viable, while you and I may be working in diy mode and making more complex, more dead cabinets. Therefore, even after I listen to his speakers in Pune, I may not be able to judge how good his drivers are. 🙂navin said:
absolutely tarun,
it is in MPs intrest in making a suitbale box for his subs. like i said in my previous posts regarding MP and his subs....
1. MP is real nice guy. Knows quite a bit too.
2. The sound however in his emo room was abysmal. It might have been poor placement, too many subs (I think he had 4 subs, 1 in each corner), poor box design, what ever but the bass should not overpower the music. there was a 10db+ level difference between the rest ofteh music and the sub levels. everything i the room and afe things outside the room reverbrated.
3. The raw drivers looked very nice. He told me he designs his subs and drivers for a punchy sound and not for audiophiles. He was very frank about that. I suspect however since he knows enough. he might have better subs / different subs in his garage. I know many designers who make mid fi speaker for teh masses but have made good audiophile quality stuff for themselves. They have learnt to seperate their business from their interest.
it is in MPs intrest in making a suitbale box for his subs. like i said in my previous posts regarding MP and his subs....
1. MP is real nice guy. Knows quite a bit too.
2. The sound however in his emo room was abysmal. It might have been poor placement, too many subs (I think he had 4 subs, 1 in each corner), poor box design, what ever but the bass should not overpower the music. there was a 10db+ level difference between the rest ofteh music and the sub levels. everything i the room and afe things outside the room reverbrated.
3. The raw drivers looked very nice. He told me he designs his subs and drivers for a punchy sound and not for audiophiles. He was very frank about that. I suspect however since he knows enough. he might have better subs / different subs in his garage. I know many designers who make mid fi speaker for teh masses but have made good audiophile quality stuff for themselves. They have learnt to seperate their business from their interest.
reference true sub
Since i have a line up of subs and subs and more subs
and there are drivers being called a sub woofer being sold
lets check out , what would decide if its a sub or not
Leaving out the basic long throw capability
A test for a sub would be
to give it full range signal
rotate the treble and mid control boost and cut the signal repeated ly - it should not pick up any mid or treble signal while boosting
without using any active or passive cross over
this is a good way of judging if its a sub or not
i am a manufacturer to make a sticker costs 10 paisa there are no control bodies here in the audio market
pasting a sticker as sub woofer will not make it one
Why the test :-
For a 5.1 or a critical application a complex cross over - active or passive should be avoided
due to the delay created by the electronics and a shift in the phase response , where in home theatre the phase may acquire a 80 degrees shift between the main spks and the subs resulting in bass cancellation than addition - even in well designed systems
a sub which due to its mechanical design rejects frequencies above 200 to 250 or so are - subwoofers
rest are woofers - may be very good woofers but not subs
i manufacture such subs which perform in the fashion subs should
my advise would be if a peerless or bolton passes this test and is readily available one should purchase it - same goes for other brands
Ever wondered why an add on high quality powered subwoofer are all front firing , 1 reason is the above
that by limiting cut - off in a bandpass enclosure will shift phase response and time factor
giving a phase control switch on a bandpass enclosure powered sub will not help much
then for bose fans :-
in an applicaton where the main speakers do not produce frequencies below 250 a band pass system can be used as there will not be any calcellation the time shift we can live with
for high quality subs to be used with proper main speakers , there is a need for front firing subs
and those not depending heavily on cross overs , the cross over provided in the 5.1 out should be enough
another prob with bandpass is it is difficult to achieve a
- flat frequency to phase to spl responce
though the design of high powered dipole subs assess this very problem
yet i believe a open dipole would be the best for this and have experimented quite a bit on it (open dipole = no cabinet/enclosure)
suranjan
transducer design engineer
Since i have a line up of subs and subs and more subs
and there are drivers being called a sub woofer being sold
lets check out , what would decide if its a sub or not
Leaving out the basic long throw capability
A test for a sub would be
to give it full range signal
rotate the treble and mid control boost and cut the signal repeated ly - it should not pick up any mid or treble signal while boosting
without using any active or passive cross over
this is a good way of judging if its a sub or not
i am a manufacturer to make a sticker costs 10 paisa there are no control bodies here in the audio market
pasting a sticker as sub woofer will not make it one
Why the test :-
For a 5.1 or a critical application a complex cross over - active or passive should be avoided
due to the delay created by the electronics and a shift in the phase response , where in home theatre the phase may acquire a 80 degrees shift between the main spks and the subs resulting in bass cancellation than addition - even in well designed systems
a sub which due to its mechanical design rejects frequencies above 200 to 250 or so are - subwoofers
rest are woofers - may be very good woofers but not subs
i manufacture such subs which perform in the fashion subs should
my advise would be if a peerless or bolton passes this test and is readily available one should purchase it - same goes for other brands
Ever wondered why an add on high quality powered subwoofer are all front firing , 1 reason is the above
that by limiting cut - off in a bandpass enclosure will shift phase response and time factor
giving a phase control switch on a bandpass enclosure powered sub will not help much
then for bose fans :-
in an applicaton where the main speakers do not produce frequencies below 250 a band pass system can be used as there will not be any calcellation the time shift we can live with
for high quality subs to be used with proper main speakers , there is a need for front firing subs
and those not depending heavily on cross overs , the cross over provided in the 5.1 out should be enough
another prob with bandpass is it is difficult to achieve a
- flat frequency to phase to spl responce
though the design of high powered dipole subs assess this very problem
yet i believe a open dipole would be the best for this and have experimented quite a bit on it (open dipole = no cabinet/enclosure)
suranjan
transducer design engineer
roshan
has any one in diy audio heard my subs ?
The answear is no
but it would nt have been so , for my own delays
i was about to visit mumbai - Navin and demo my subs lat month
it got delayed as i am a bit tied down here
most probably i will be going this month with my sub to Navin
then you would have some people who could give you some sort of a listening test report
i have requested my customers who use my drivers here in cal to join diy , most are pressed for time , and its a matter of being net - savvy + hobby a personal issue in some ways
suranjan
has any one in diy audio heard my subs ?
The answear is no
but it would nt have been so , for my own delays
i was about to visit mumbai - Navin and demo my subs lat month
it got delayed as i am a bit tied down here
most probably i will be going this month with my sub to Navin
then you would have some people who could give you some sort of a listening test report
i have requested my customers who use my drivers here in cal to join diy , most are pressed for time , and its a matter of being net - savvy + hobby a personal issue in some ways
suranjan
which car sub can be used in home audio
Car subs are expensive wondered why ?
they are designed to perform without enclosures
and in extreme climatic conditions
produce high spl - frequency to phase to spl linearity is not of priority
high power handling ,
designed to match an amplifier with a low damping factor
to achive the above and yet have a high excursion they use progressive spiders and compliance
there are other things like to design subs for car climates , the cones are heavily doped , or of pp
all will be amazing in the car but will lack the tonal response , sound field and dimension of a demanding hi - fi
yet for people using car subs for home audio my advise would be to purchase drivers which are designed for enclosure loading and not the free air loading type
most companys maintain both line up , the drivers are similar in looks
but not similar in application
this will be mentioned on the tech specs of the sub driver
suranjan
Car subs are expensive wondered why ?
they are designed to perform without enclosures
and in extreme climatic conditions
produce high spl - frequency to phase to spl linearity is not of priority
high power handling ,
designed to match an amplifier with a low damping factor
to achive the above and yet have a high excursion they use progressive spiders and compliance
there are other things like to design subs for car climates , the cones are heavily doped , or of pp
all will be amazing in the car but will lack the tonal response , sound field and dimension of a demanding hi - fi
yet for people using car subs for home audio my advise would be to purchase drivers which are designed for enclosure loading and not the free air loading type
most companys maintain both line up , the drivers are similar in looks
but not similar in application
this will be mentioned on the tech specs of the sub driver
suranjan
suranjan, u are welcom here. what do you need from my end to ensure the test is done fairly.
listening room?
DVD player?
etc...
listening room?
DVD player?
etc...
Mahendra Palesha
Folks
I have met Mahendra and had(yes we audiophiles do that) dinner with him both at Pune and at Bangalore. He is an extremely nice guy, very knowledgeable ( and hospitable).
I have his phone numbers and if I was at home(not in St Louis, MO), could have called himand asked him what he can do for all. I'm not in this one, since I have two DIY subs, with a third 12 inch driver waiting at Nashville to be brought back with me!
OTOH, it's also worth giving Suranjan's producsta fair try-since he makes them. Mahendra imports his from Taiwan.
My 2 cents...
Regards
George
PS I have been watching the internet for developments on the test match, which you guys probably see-at least the highlights-Sehwag seems to have been really awesome..
Folks
I have met Mahendra and had(yes we audiophiles do that) dinner with him both at Pune and at Bangalore. He is an extremely nice guy, very knowledgeable ( and hospitable).
I have his phone numbers and if I was at home(not in St Louis, MO), could have called himand asked him what he can do for all. I'm not in this one, since I have two DIY subs, with a third 12 inch driver waiting at Nashville to be brought back with me!
OTOH, it's also worth giving Suranjan's producsta fair try-since he makes them. Mahendra imports his from Taiwan.
My 2 cents...
Regards
George
PS I have been watching the internet for developments on the test match, which you guys probably see-at least the highlights-Sehwag seems to have been really awesome..
Hi!
Suranjan
I will be in Mumbai next moth only few days now probably from 11th onwards. I too would like to share your knowlegable company. Nothing to say of the demo.
On subject of Car subs here in local mkt Boschman subs are available. One model 1240 costs Rs2200/. I am not sure about the performance and stuff but this foriegn company even has a web site , possibly you get more details here:
http://www.bmaudio.com/
While on topic at Delhi I visited a local manufacturer YP Electronics at 326 LJR (Lajpat Rai Mkt) . On display were few HTs and Bose clones. I found here 8 inch pressed paper cone subwoofer, quite good for the price of Rs390/ only. Small drivers for HTs are available for Rs60/ only, Cabinets of Bose cubes dual spk copy is there too Rs600/ each inclusive of speakers. Cabinet is also available without spk. They do have a site but it appears it has not been updated
www.ypaudio.com
Just little bit of what I came across last month.
Regards
Rahul
Suranjan
I will be in Mumbai next moth only few days now probably from 11th onwards. I too would like to share your knowlegable company. Nothing to say of the demo.
On subject of Car subs here in local mkt Boschman subs are available. One model 1240 costs Rs2200/. I am not sure about the performance and stuff but this foriegn company even has a web site , possibly you get more details here:
http://www.bmaudio.com/
While on topic at Delhi I visited a local manufacturer YP Electronics at 326 LJR (Lajpat Rai Mkt) . On display were few HTs and Bose clones. I found here 8 inch pressed paper cone subwoofer, quite good for the price of Rs390/ only. Small drivers for HTs are available for Rs60/ only, Cabinets of Bose cubes dual spk copy is there too Rs600/ each inclusive of speakers. Cabinet is also available without spk. They do have a site but it appears it has not been updated
www.ypaudio.com
Just little bit of what I came across last month.
Regards
Rahul
need help wit toyatone
hey guys .... first how do i calculate the TS para meters of the woofer .... or does any body have the ts para meters of the above mentioned brand of speakers....it is the 8" inch one.
now then what about channel bridging.... i had read about it some where... about bridging two channels of an amp to make it perform like a mono for subs ... any body knows how to do it.
Binil
hey guys .... first how do i calculate the TS para meters of the woofer .... or does any body have the ts para meters of the above mentioned brand of speakers....it is the 8" inch one.
now then what about channel bridging.... i had read about it some where... about bridging two channels of an amp to make it perform like a mono for subs ... any body knows how to do it.
Binil
Re: need help wit toyatone
Binil,
Here're some sites to get you started measuring TS parameters...
http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm
- this is Rod Eliot's site.
http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/jig2/jig2.html
- this is Eric Wallin's. He uses speaker workshop, which you can download for free from http://www.speakerworkshop.com/
- Ashwin
brokenbinil said:
Binil,
Here're some sites to get you started measuring TS parameters...
http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm
- this is Rod Eliot's site.
http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/jig2/jig2.html
- this is Eric Wallin's. He uses speaker workshop, which you can download for free from http://www.speakerworkshop.com/
- Ashwin
channel bridging
hey ashwin thanks a tonne .... well will keep u updated about my progress.....
well but please tell me how to bridge two channels
i mean i had read some where tht you can bridge two of the out puts channels to form a mono amp and perform like one. good for subs. now the problem is how do u bridge it without spoiling the amp.
please help
hey ashwin thanks a tonne .... well will keep u updated about my progress.....
well but please tell me how to bridge two channels
i mean i had read some where tht you can bridge two of the out puts channels to form a mono amp and perform like one. good for subs. now the problem is how do u bridge it without spoiling the amp.
please help
hi Navin
i have gone over your system details you sent me before , i dont think ill need any thing more , please mail me your tel no . tks
Rahul
Over the years i have been able to analyze products which we manufacturers can offer - in 2 brackets
1) One the economy range ,
in this subs do not figure (due to the argument i presented of no regulatory board and manufacturers placing stickers as per free will)
I have an economy range of which i do not discuss generally in diy
i have 8 inch 50 watt woofers (good ones , own devoloped cones , imported vc wires ets) from 130 rs onwards
(oh by the way i know all of yp s range and also people in calcutta who even copy yp and record sale s of 10,000 nos per month of 8 inch woofers (all go to bangladesh,bihar north eat from calcutta)
2) And a up - market range
of which i discuss in diy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturers having models in both range should have a distinct seperation for the price brackets
the drivers in the up market range should look the type , and be the type to take on competition from abroad,
in every sense from the chasis to the appearance to the material of cone , size of spiders , x- max , motor structure design (sfg ets)
right to the gaskets for the woofers
suranjan
i have gone over your system details you sent me before , i dont think ill need any thing more , please mail me your tel no . tks
Rahul
Over the years i have been able to analyze products which we manufacturers can offer - in 2 brackets
1) One the economy range ,
in this subs do not figure (due to the argument i presented of no regulatory board and manufacturers placing stickers as per free will)
I have an economy range of which i do not discuss generally in diy
i have 8 inch 50 watt woofers (good ones , own devoloped cones , imported vc wires ets) from 130 rs onwards
(oh by the way i know all of yp s range and also people in calcutta who even copy yp and record sale s of 10,000 nos per month of 8 inch woofers (all go to bangladesh,bihar north eat from calcutta)
2) And a up - market range
of which i discuss in diy
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturers having models in both range should have a distinct seperation for the price brackets
the drivers in the up market range should look the type , and be the type to take on competition from abroad,
in every sense from the chasis to the appearance to the material of cone , size of spiders , x- max , motor structure design (sfg ets)
right to the gaskets for the woofers
suranjan
Hello!
Suranjan :
Right you are. The commercial mkt product and high end product is two different class. We cannot expect masses to go in for the upper end product when there already is cut throat with too many local manufacturers and off late the stuff from far east.
All said and done we all aill agree that major foriegn brands like Sony etc have their own share of consumers. Now for the low cost products , including drivers I see bigger markets have small dealers as main clientle from near about areas eg Delhi gets people from nearby hills, Punjab, Haryana and a major part of north India. Similarly at Lucknow the main mkt has shopkeepers from Barabanki, hydergard, hardoi, Sitapur etc . These small capital shokeepers are mainly interested in cost rather than quality.
Basic functioning appears like invest abt 1Lac one week and sell it off in next 7 days for 15-20K profit be back again after one week. I am sure it works in similar manner at Kolkotta. As a result it is just the cheap low cost copies that flood the market.
Unfortunately not many highend takers perhaps the same reason the manufacturer do not go in for better quality product as it involves too much of time , knowledge as well as investment.
I am sure there are many manufacturers who will be willing to do a special order for our group. How about just getting few drivers made to our specs mainly 6 inchers for bookshelf, few driver for towers , a good tweeter and if possible a subwoofer. Not all in one go but one at a time.
Regards
Rahul
Suranjan :
Right you are. The commercial mkt product and high end product is two different class. We cannot expect masses to go in for the upper end product when there already is cut throat with too many local manufacturers and off late the stuff from far east.
All said and done we all aill agree that major foriegn brands like Sony etc have their own share of consumers. Now for the low cost products , including drivers I see bigger markets have small dealers as main clientle from near about areas eg Delhi gets people from nearby hills, Punjab, Haryana and a major part of north India. Similarly at Lucknow the main mkt has shopkeepers from Barabanki, hydergard, hardoi, Sitapur etc . These small capital shokeepers are mainly interested in cost rather than quality.
Basic functioning appears like invest abt 1Lac one week and sell it off in next 7 days for 15-20K profit be back again after one week. I am sure it works in similar manner at Kolkotta. As a result it is just the cheap low cost copies that flood the market.
Unfortunately not many highend takers perhaps the same reason the manufacturer do not go in for better quality product as it involves too much of time , knowledge as well as investment.
I am sure there are many manufacturers who will be willing to do a special order for our group. How about just getting few drivers made to our specs mainly 6 inchers for bookshelf, few driver for towers , a good tweeter and if possible a subwoofer. Not all in one go but one at a time.
Regards
Rahul
Hey you guys . if you are interested in quality drivers i suggest you check this out.
http://www.corrson.com/.
they are official distributors in india for vifa and scanspeak.
cheers!
http://www.corrson.com/.
they are official distributors in india for vifa and scanspeak.
cheers!
???channel bridging
what guys no takers ?????
brokenbinil said:hey ashwin thanks a tonne .... well will keep u updated about my progress.....
well but please tell me how to bridge two channels
i mean i had read some where tht you can bridge two of the out puts channels to form a mono amp and perform like one. good for subs. now the problem is how do u bridge it without spoiling the amp.
please help
what guys no takers ?????
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