Sub is ready.
Carpenter goofed up. Used internal dim as external, inspite of mentioning clearly its internal. Fortunately had given extra allowance for housing amp. Will have to make it external now. But even then I'm short of approx 1.5 L of the necessary Vb 27.7 L. (after deducting driver & port vol). However Win ISDN shows hardly any difference in the freq resp curve for the change in vol.
Performance wise - not good as expected. But there's a lot of work remaining. Amp needs to be upgraded to 100W+ (currently its 40W). Line level XO needed (currently its speaker level). Low freq needs to be extended using Linkwitz transform or similar. Port needs to be fine tuned. Poor room accoustics & phase cancellation could also be an issue. -Have an L shaped room.
To describe the sound emanateing.....the bass drum goes thump, thump..instead of a good vibrating boom, boom. I'm exaggerating a bit here..just to give an idea.
I have 2 questions.
1. What would be the best sound absorbant for cabinet.? Felt, cotton wool, glass wool or coir. Currently I'm using coir. - the same stuff found in coir mattresses.
2. What would be a resonable upper cutoff freq for the low pass filter. The main tower speakers lack mid-bass.
thanks.
Carpenter goofed up. Used internal dim as external, inspite of mentioning clearly its internal. Fortunately had given extra allowance for housing amp. Will have to make it external now. But even then I'm short of approx 1.5 L of the necessary Vb 27.7 L. (after deducting driver & port vol). However Win ISDN shows hardly any difference in the freq resp curve for the change in vol.
Performance wise - not good as expected. But there's a lot of work remaining. Amp needs to be upgraded to 100W+ (currently its 40W). Line level XO needed (currently its speaker level). Low freq needs to be extended using Linkwitz transform or similar. Port needs to be fine tuned. Poor room accoustics & phase cancellation could also be an issue. -Have an L shaped room.
To describe the sound emanateing.....the bass drum goes thump, thump..instead of a good vibrating boom, boom. I'm exaggerating a bit here..just to give an idea.
I have 2 questions.
1. What would be the best sound absorbant for cabinet.? Felt, cotton wool, glass wool or coir. Currently I'm using coir. - the same stuff found in coir mattresses.
2. What would be a resonable upper cutoff freq for the low pass filter. The main tower speakers lack mid-bass.
thanks.
For my sealed sub, I used fibreglass, seems to have worked fine. It's a bit messy to handle and you get it in bales, generally the quantity may be more than what you need for your project. In my case I was also making a pair of satellites which also needed stuffing so I had to store the fibreglass. I suggest that you use gloves while handling it, along with a mask if possible. For my other sub I havent used any stuffing at all-this a PR design.
I have two line level outputs on my preamps, one goes to the power amp and the other to the sub amp. I dont know what kind of thump thump you will get with 40 wrms.
George
I have two line level outputs on my preamps, one goes to the power amp and the other to the sub amp. I dont know what kind of thump thump you will get with 40 wrms.
George
fiberglass or glasss wool.
fiberglas comes in loose rovings or woven mat glass wool comes in bales.
glass wool can get itchy.
i have used glass wool as well as open cell foam. open cell foam us usefull for bass reflex as u want to absorb midrange and not low bass.
fiberglas comes in loose rovings or woven mat glass wool comes in bales.
glass wool can get itchy.
i have used glass wool as well as open cell foam. open cell foam us usefull for bass reflex as u want to absorb midrange and not low bass.
roshan101 said:
Sorry to hear about your problems with the carpenter...🙁
1) As Navin suggests, fibreglass insulation is good, and relatively cheap compared to other options.
2) If you're just using one sub, then you don't really want to go above about 80Hz as a crossover frequency. Any higher, and you will be able to localise the sub and lose stereo imaging
Careful...fiber glass is a carcinogen.
I stopped playing with (acoustic grade) fiber glass long ago. I had bought a huge roll. Had a very tough time with it. The glass fibers penetrate your skin and break off and it becomes quite itchy.
I can't imagine what it does to the eyes. Then sometime later I read that they found that it was a carcinogen if exposed to it long enough.
Avoid it like the plague . Use other things like Racron ( Dacron fibers made by Reliance ). It's used as pillow stuffing. The easiest method is to buy the pillow and rip it up. This will probably be better than most other locally available absorbents. Fiber glass is better but its safer to stay away from it.
Coir is not a good absorbent . It will take away a lot of internal volume. Fluffed up cotton is probably better but the dust will get in everywhere including the driver ! Open pore urethane foam is probably useful but I think the Dacron fibers will be more effective.
I have BAF ( bonded acetate fiber ) and Racron. They are not the same but in the absence of BAF , Racron should be useable.
I 'll try to run some tests and let you know how it fares.
Cheers,
Ashok.
I stopped playing with (acoustic grade) fiber glass long ago. I had bought a huge roll. Had a very tough time with it. The glass fibers penetrate your skin and break off and it becomes quite itchy.
I can't imagine what it does to the eyes. Then sometime later I read that they found that it was a carcinogen if exposed to it long enough.
Avoid it like the plague . Use other things like Racron ( Dacron fibers made by Reliance ). It's used as pillow stuffing. The easiest method is to buy the pillow and rip it up. This will probably be better than most other locally available absorbents. Fiber glass is better but its safer to stay away from it.
Coir is not a good absorbent . It will take away a lot of internal volume. Fluffed up cotton is probably better but the dust will get in everywhere including the driver ! Open pore urethane foam is probably useful but I think the Dacron fibers will be more effective.
I have BAF ( bonded acetate fiber ) and Racron. They are not the same but in the absence of BAF , Racron should be useable.
I 'll try to run some tests and let you know how it fares.
Cheers,
Ashok.
Ashok is right. I forgot that in my last project, a HT system designed by Joe D"Appolito, using Audax drivers, I used polyester, buying a pillow and ripping it open for the stuffing. You can get this from the market-a Reliance polyester pillow is about Rs 120 or so IIRC. As Ashok pointed out it's both safer and easier to handle.
George
George
Re: Careful...fiber glass is a carcinogen.
Racron is about as useable as glass wool but glass wool seems to doa better job below 50Hz. BTW a few of my friends have problems with glass wool itch somehow i dont. maybe i just got immune. i have been using this stuff since i was 12 or so.
this is odd. because i have an extreme allergy to man made fibers (i can only wear combed cottons and silks and a few properly combed wools).
I used racron in my last speaker only because I was fine tuning it at home and i did not want my son to get anywhere near it. He suffers from excema and i did not want to agravate that.
with proper gloves and eye protection otherwsie glass wool is a cheap alternate. my speakers are sealed (i used open cell for for bass reflex remember) so the carcinogenic effects of glass wool dont matter.
ashok said:
Racron is about as useable as glass wool but glass wool seems to doa better job below 50Hz. BTW a few of my friends have problems with glass wool itch somehow i dont. maybe i just got immune. i have been using this stuff since i was 12 or so.
this is odd. because i have an extreme allergy to man made fibers (i can only wear combed cottons and silks and a few properly combed wools).
I used racron in my last speaker only because I was fine tuning it at home and i did not want my son to get anywhere near it. He suffers from excema and i did not want to agravate that.
with proper gloves and eye protection otherwsie glass wool is a cheap alternate. my speakers are sealed (i used open cell for for bass reflex remember) so the carcinogenic effects of glass wool dont matter.
hi
recron - fiber fill is the reliance product name - for plyster fiber , it is easily available here in the furniture and mattress providers market in calcutta s case all in chadni market itself , you will get it much cheaper f you could trace down a quilt or a jacket manufacturer - who is exporting (has a largish set up) they use it as a insulation material - and buy it in rolls - and have a lot of waste of the same material - well suited for speakers
another source is a ship scrap yard - its used as insulation in ships - i have picked it up for as less as rs 6 / kg here (once !)
suranjan
suranjan
recron - fiber fill is the reliance product name - for plyster fiber , it is easily available here in the furniture and mattress providers market in calcutta s case all in chadni market itself , you will get it much cheaper f you could trace down a quilt or a jacket manufacturer - who is exporting (has a largish set up) they use it as a insulation material - and buy it in rolls - and have a lot of waste of the same material - well suited for speakers
another source is a ship scrap yard - its used as insulation in ships - i have picked it up for as less as rs 6 / kg here (once !)
suranjan
suranjan
Reliance pillow it will be- provided its available here. During my childhood days - hapen to see some fibre glass in a box- my brother was constructing a speaker cabinet- while he was not around, couldn't resist playing with it- it looked like cotton candy. Soon enough my whole body was covered with rashes. Never touched the stuff ever since.
Ashok- you must be right abt coir taking up internal vol. - which could be the reason for the not-so-good performance. Esp for a cabinet smaller than necessary.
The electronic store wala suggested coir. Dont know why. Probably theres too much of it in kerala. People try to put every part of the palm tree to good use here.😀
Pinkmouse, thanks for reminding about losing stereo image. Was about to make the cutoff at 200Hz to allow more mid bass. Guess, that would'nt do good. Saw a project published in the 70's with a cutoff at 200Hz. Of course they didn't have subs then, but the principle was very much the same. i.e. amplify only the low freq from an existing hi-fi and feed it to a woofer housed in a ported box of critical dimensions.
Ashok- you must be right abt coir taking up internal vol. - which could be the reason for the not-so-good performance. Esp for a cabinet smaller than necessary.
The electronic store wala suggested coir. Dont know why. Probably theres too much of it in kerala. People try to put every part of the palm tree to good use here.😀
Pinkmouse, thanks for reminding about losing stereo image. Was about to make the cutoff at 200Hz to allow more mid bass. Guess, that would'nt do good. Saw a project published in the 70's with a cutoff at 200Hz. Of course they didn't have subs then, but the principle was very much the same. i.e. amplify only the low freq from an existing hi-fi and feed it to a woofer housed in a ported box of critical dimensions.
Ask someone.
Roshan,
Ask someone coming to Quilon from Calicut or Ernakulam to carry an extra pillow ! These pillows are advertised as Racron fiber filled pillows. In our area the pillows are generally 150/- bucks. I have not seen anyone selling at 120/-. But then prices can vary.
Ashok.
Roshan,
Ask someone coming to Quilon from Calicut or Ernakulam to carry an extra pillow ! These pillows are advertised as Racron fiber filled pillows. In our area the pillows are generally 150/- bucks. I have not seen anyone selling at 120/-. But then prices can vary.
Ashok.
Thanks Ashok. I did manage to get the racron.
There's a noticeable improvement after replacing coir with this. But its still below expectation. A lot other factors influencing sound quality need to be tackled like room acoustics, sub XO, etc. The process is going to take a while.
There's a noticeable improvement after replacing coir with this. But its still below expectation. A lot other factors influencing sound quality need to be tackled like room acoustics, sub XO, etc. The process is going to take a while.
🙂
Hi I am newbie to this forum and DIY.. But have lots of interests in the Hi Fi Audio world.
I am now settled in US, New Jersey since past couple of years, but basically from India.. Amchi Mumbai 😀 .
I have some good / branded stuff (H&K, Yamaha, Parasound and B&W)here in US as well as back in India as far as my sound system goes.
I came across this thread, am really delighted to know we have so many DIY Enthu.. in india. I remembered my good old Laminghton Rd days.
Reason I am putting my post on this tread is I want to seriously pursue floor standing (3 way) speaker project. Being in US will help me as I can buy lots of stuff from PartsExpress or Madisound.
After going throgh this forum, I have located few websites which can help me a lot on my project, but if any one of you (Navin or Ashok....) can give me heads up on this would be great.
Thanks in Advance
Hi I am newbie to this forum and DIY.. But have lots of interests in the Hi Fi Audio world.
I am now settled in US, New Jersey since past couple of years, but basically from India.. Amchi Mumbai 😀 .
I have some good / branded stuff (H&K, Yamaha, Parasound and B&W)here in US as well as back in India as far as my sound system goes.
I came across this thread, am really delighted to know we have so many DIY Enthu.. in india. I remembered my good old Laminghton Rd days.
Reason I am putting my post on this tread is I want to seriously pursue floor standing (3 way) speaker project. Being in US will help me as I can buy lots of stuff from PartsExpress or Madisound.
After going throgh this forum, I have located few websites which can help me a lot on my project, but if any one of you (Navin or Ashok....) can give me heads up on this would be great.
Thanks in Advance
hi
being in the us and if you dont have a budgetry limitation ,
you will have to state what are you having right now B&W which ?
a refence to which type of a speaker you would like to better , and ure budget , type of application , home theatre (included ?)
ure wood-work approach - planning to make the cabs - your self ets
then - we can set you something good and tested
oh by the way - if you have the budget , can you consider a - manger
or ability with woodwork - fullranges like lowther / fostex coupled with - tumults ets (subs)
suranjan
being in the us and if you dont have a budgetry limitation ,
you will have to state what are you having right now B&W which ?
a refence to which type of a speaker you would like to better , and ure budget , type of application , home theatre (included ?)
ure wood-work approach - planning to make the cabs - your self ets
then - we can set you something good and tested
oh by the way - if you have the budget , can you consider a - manger
or ability with woodwork - fullranges like lowther / fostex coupled with - tumults ets (subs)
suranjan
Hi Suranjan
To answer ur Qs..
1. I have budget of 1000$ but I want to do this in phases as I have limited resources here as far as wood work goes hence dont want to take risk if I fail in between, though I will still have the drivers.
2. I have stereo setup here in US. with HK 3475 as pre-pro and Parasound 150 two Channel Amp with Denon DVD player. I have B&W 602 S3 here in Bi amp set up. ( I also have one pair of Wharfdale Rubi 23 which I won on Ebay for 71$ 😀 ).
3. I want to build 3 way speaker. with some kits probably BassZilla kit plans, but not sure (please be kind with me with ur suggestions). But mostly I listen to lots of music 80%.
4. Abt the wood work. yes I have very limited resources with skills.
5. then - we can set you something good and tested
Hope this clarifies your Qs.
To answer ur Qs..
1. I have budget of 1000$ but I want to do this in phases as I have limited resources here as far as wood work goes hence dont want to take risk if I fail in between, though I will still have the drivers.
2. I have stereo setup here in US. with HK 3475 as pre-pro and Parasound 150 two Channel Amp with Denon DVD player. I have B&W 602 S3 here in Bi amp set up. ( I also have one pair of Wharfdale Rubi 23 which I won on Ebay for 71$ 😀 ).
3. I want to build 3 way speaker. with some kits probably BassZilla kit plans, but not sure (please be kind with me with ur suggestions). But mostly I listen to lots of music 80%.
4. Abt the wood work. yes I have very limited resources with skills.
5. then - we can set you something good and tested
Hope this clarifies your Qs.
Gooole,
Maybe you should first tweak what you have. Improve crossover components , better stands , different placement etc.
Takes time and some money but you get to know a lot more than reading stuff.
A good three way is far more complex than a two way unless you mean a sub on each channel as the third'way'.
If you look around you will find that to get a genuine good three way you will need lots of experience and time and money to get it to sound really good.
Better you make a good two way that goes pretty low and add a sub if you want to. Much easier and plenty of great designs on the web. Seen the ProAc 2.5 clones ?
Cheers,
Ashok.
Maybe you should first tweak what you have. Improve crossover components , better stands , different placement etc.
Takes time and some money but you get to know a lot more than reading stuff.
A good three way is far more complex than a two way unless you mean a sub on each channel as the third'way'.
If you look around you will find that to get a genuine good three way you will need lots of experience and time and money to get it to sound really good.
Better you make a good two way that goes pretty low and add a sub if you want to. Much easier and plenty of great designs on the web. Seen the ProAc 2.5 clones ?
Cheers,
Ashok.
Thanks Ashok for your valuable inputs.
In fact thats what I had in mind, to do it in steps..
I am doing more study on ProAc 2.5 clones.
Keep u folks posted on this.
🙂
In fact thats what I had in mind, to do it in steps..
I am doing more study on ProAc 2.5 clones.
Keep u folks posted on this.
🙂
Look at this also.
Hi Gooole,
I think you should look at he Linkwitz site also (the Orion).
http://www.linkwitzlab.com
These are open baffle speakers and are a different ball game altogether. These are three way.
Before you plunge into your speaker project you better look at this carefully. All projects take lots of time and money and you can't get back any of it ! So try to pick what possibly sounds best within your budget and suits your room.
Some more details here.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
Cheers,
Ashok.
Hi Gooole,
I think you should look at he Linkwitz site also (the Orion).
http://www.linkwitzlab.com
These are open baffle speakers and are a different ball game altogether. These are three way.
Before you plunge into your speaker project you better look at this carefully. All projects take lots of time and money and you can't get back any of it ! So try to pick what possibly sounds best within your budget and suits your room.
Some more details here.
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/orion_challenge.htm
Cheers,
Ashok.
welcome gooole
hey buddy ..... good to see another indi bhai here.... hey guys ....
roshan .... tell me some thing did u use mdf foor the enclouser ....
Bini
hey buddy ..... good to see another indi bhai here.... hey guys ....
roshan .... tell me some thing did u use mdf foor the enclouser ....
Bini
hi
roshan , have you broken in the woofer - the sound will improve - with time ,
from what i have figured out from your discription of the driver and sound
for improvement - throw in a lot of equalisation and db boosting to bring out how you would like it to play - the woofer will be handle a bit of rough-ness
also give me the spider - od before you do this
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gooole
i would not like you to take it other wise but - i think you can really open your horizons more
go in for a audio amateur - speaker builder magazine - there are far better kits - even dyna audio , morrel , audax available in US including the boxes in kit form (i think you need to opt for this - taking wood work into consideration)
for your budget - you can make very good speakers
also you will get lots of adds ets magazines (with adds from good maufacturers about their kits ) from the - old colony sound lab
if you need the office adds of these sources - i can mail them to you
go in for a kit - where the wood work will be in knock down form - make one nice floor stander - then in your next project - you can attempt to make the cabinets from scratch your self
if you need the adds to contact the above i can send them to you - there are lots of options - your budget is fine , the options will open up to you - once you go over the adds in these magazines , projects in these magazines
speaker builder has lots of projects - with wood work templates - test results - and good drivers to use with their projects - all look very good , and i think will be just right for you - in your next project - when you would like to do every thing from scratch
suranjan
roshan , have you broken in the woofer - the sound will improve - with time ,
from what i have figured out from your discription of the driver and sound
for improvement - throw in a lot of equalisation and db boosting to bring out how you would like it to play - the woofer will be handle a bit of rough-ness
also give me the spider - od before you do this
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
gooole
i would not like you to take it other wise but - i think you can really open your horizons more
go in for a audio amateur - speaker builder magazine - there are far better kits - even dyna audio , morrel , audax available in US including the boxes in kit form (i think you need to opt for this - taking wood work into consideration)
for your budget - you can make very good speakers
also you will get lots of adds ets magazines (with adds from good maufacturers about their kits ) from the - old colony sound lab
if you need the office adds of these sources - i can mail them to you
go in for a kit - where the wood work will be in knock down form - make one nice floor stander - then in your next project - you can attempt to make the cabinets from scratch your self
if you need the adds to contact the above i can send them to you - there are lots of options - your budget is fine , the options will open up to you - once you go over the adds in these magazines , projects in these magazines
speaker builder has lots of projects - with wood work templates - test results - and good drivers to use with their projects - all look very good , and i think will be just right for you - in your next project - when you would like to do every thing from scratch
suranjan
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