What I want, is a synergy/unity horn speaker with low diffraction and that is designed to be placed on a wall inside a room. I have conctrete walls. They have to be on the wall because I need to dance.
As I don't have the skills to design such a speaker and I don't know any exist, I'm asking the experts here to help me design one. Or if there is one post a link.
My design goals:
No audible distortion up to 95dB spl.
Frequency response reasonably flat from 80-100Hz to 15-20kHz. (I'm using the multi sub thing, so no need to go lower)
And of cause constant directivity.
I have on wall speakers that have a very wide radiation pattern, so these can be narower to compare the radiation patterns.
Best Bill.
As I don't have the skills to design such a speaker and I don't know any exist, I'm asking the experts here to help me design one. Or if there is one post a link.
My design goals:
No audible distortion up to 95dB spl.
Frequency response reasonably flat from 80-100Hz to 15-20kHz. (I'm using the multi sub thing, so no need to go lower)
And of cause constant directivity.
I have on wall speakers that have a very wide radiation pattern, so these can be narower to compare the radiation patterns.
Best Bill.
To help understand this better I'm inclined to ask you in what way would this kind of synergy be different to any other?
Perhaps you can load load your dance-floor using the corner of the room to have 90° spread ? By essence all the drivers will be in the same concrete 90° horn and no probleme to respect the 1/4 WL spacing between the drivers as well.
Pi loudspeakers for instance. KlipshHorn. You may also consider than the plain wall is a horn too like a bafle (if rephrasing patrick bateman) and use a Cornu up to 150 hz with bass sub on the floor and EQ it all 😕
If now you use two Cornu on the midle of two near wall intersection you have this plain 90° effect as well, but I assume if you want the two cornu sounds like a monaural loudspeaker better than the diagonal between the two cornu stay in the 1/4 WL above 150 Hz ??? (I don't know, just asking myself). Anyway you will need EQ because of the wall bafle step I surmise.
You may also consider Weltersys member synergy design here if you need spl (you talk about dance floor)
Pi loudspeakers for instance. KlipshHorn. You may also consider than the plain wall is a horn too like a bafle (if rephrasing patrick bateman) and use a Cornu up to 150 hz with bass sub on the floor and EQ it all 😕
If now you use two Cornu on the midle of two near wall intersection you have this plain 90° effect as well, but I assume if you want the two cornu sounds like a monaural loudspeaker better than the diagonal between the two cornu stay in the 1/4 WL above 150 Hz ??? (I don't know, just asking myself). Anyway you will need EQ because of the wall bafle step I surmise.
You may also consider Weltersys member synergy design here if you need spl (you talk about dance floor)
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I have Lowther TP1's in my corners.
The only upside of these speakers is that they take up much less space than you'd expect. Their sound is horrendous. I have them to demonstrate that this is not audio nirvana as many seem to beleve.
No need for high spl's, I don't want more hearing damage. (I have a 10dB drop at 3K)
An other advantage of on wall mouning is the allison effect, so the frequency response below schroeder is more flat across a large angle.
I think this is a bit ambitious project at least for now. There might be a chance for low diffraction device that is both symmetric and not too deep if the ATH thread latest development works out fine. In which case you could have not too deep device with a conical section for easy woofer mounting and possibility for low enough xo frequency for wider than the usual 50x50 pattern. The thing is, for now, to get the xo work the distances between mid taps and throat should be small enough (< 1/4wl) which dictates the pattern of the device, which dictates the size of the device.
You could build similar devices than seen on the forum since many years but they are not low diffraction and most are very deep to get the mid taps close enough for the point source to happen and pattern control < 1kHz. You could reduce depth by narrowing the vertical pattern and widen the horizontal as with many projects seen but soon the vertical pattern is so narrow it needs to be targeted either for dancing or sitting down.
I think you could hang them up to ceiling corner to overcome the size /pattern control properties, at least they would be out from the dancers way. Use ample rollback on the mouth to reduce diffraction. Checkout any threads here on forum, if no ready plans found use the Bill Waslo spreadsheet to calculate the device. Improvise a "better" mouth that has less diffraction, this might take some serious prototyping or it might turn out the sound is good enough as is without any optimization for the diffraction. It might turn out most of the diffraction is from the taps and not from the mouth, which would be yet another unsolved (on DIY land at least) problem. Here is some polars available on the Danley SH50 and I suspect similar devices seen on the forums perform similarly on the polar / diffraction / resonance aspects so you know what to expect Danley Sound Labs SH-50 Professional Audio Speaker Review .
If you find your way to low diffraction synergy, please post your results! Have fun!🙂
ps. while spending time to the research and manufacturing and what not I'd buy some ~1000€ 10"-12" modern active PA speakers from QSC, Yamaha, RFC, .. to keep on dancing all the way until the synergies are ready to take over!
edit: it shouldn't be too hard to better Lowther TP1 in the diffraction aspect 😀 And, if you don't need high SPL I'd use some coaxial speaker with good roundovers on the baffle to get low diffraction point source with ease. Synergy would be capable of high SPL point source but I am not sure if there are other advantages over "simple" coaxial system.
You could build similar devices than seen on the forum since many years but they are not low diffraction and most are very deep to get the mid taps close enough for the point source to happen and pattern control < 1kHz. You could reduce depth by narrowing the vertical pattern and widen the horizontal as with many projects seen but soon the vertical pattern is so narrow it needs to be targeted either for dancing or sitting down.
I think you could hang them up to ceiling corner to overcome the size /pattern control properties, at least they would be out from the dancers way. Use ample rollback on the mouth to reduce diffraction. Checkout any threads here on forum, if no ready plans found use the Bill Waslo spreadsheet to calculate the device. Improvise a "better" mouth that has less diffraction, this might take some serious prototyping or it might turn out the sound is good enough as is without any optimization for the diffraction. It might turn out most of the diffraction is from the taps and not from the mouth, which would be yet another unsolved (on DIY land at least) problem. Here is some polars available on the Danley SH50 and I suspect similar devices seen on the forums perform similarly on the polar / diffraction / resonance aspects so you know what to expect Danley Sound Labs SH-50 Professional Audio Speaker Review .
If you find your way to low diffraction synergy, please post your results! Have fun!🙂
ps. while spending time to the research and manufacturing and what not I'd buy some ~1000€ 10"-12" modern active PA speakers from QSC, Yamaha, RFC, .. to keep on dancing all the way until the synergies are ready to take over!
edit: it shouldn't be too hard to better Lowther TP1 in the diffraction aspect 😀 And, if you don't need high SPL I'd use some coaxial speaker with good roundovers on the baffle to get low diffraction point source with ease. Synergy would be capable of high SPL point source but I am not sure if there are other advantages over "simple" coaxial system.
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Corner placement is very difficult to do right, but it is a good place when you do. You can't put any speaker there, it must be made to go there or it will sound bad. You should be careful near walls too.
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A horn that is useful low in frequency (E.G <1kHz) has to have depth which wouldn't go well with the on wall concept. I would suggest using an array speaker instead to achieve directivity control. This would take the form of a small horn surrounded by midranges, then mid woofers etc. I recall seeing a thread with such a speaker here but I can't find it now.
Coaxial speakers tend to have diffraction at the cone horn junction due to the sudden change in angle.
Coaxial speakers tend to have diffraction at the cone horn junction due to the sudden change in angle.
^ coaxial throat diffraction issue is very minor compared to the current situation with the lowther 😀 and i suspect less than with synergies unless some clever mid taps, and mouth roundover. I think coaxial would potentially meet current goal very well if we change the word synergy to "point source". Small, easy to build and probably cheapest. Not necessarily constant directivity though, I haven't checked coaxials too closely.
Anyway, Bill has to refine the goal a bit more i think. By all means build synergy if you wanna experience how they perform but if the SPL capability is not needed then it would be a unnecessary complicated solution without obvious advantages from pure engineering perspective 🙂 I read the problem as "as loud and out of the way as the current Lowther setup, but with better sound quality".
I'd like to build synergy as well but the complexity and not finishing the previous projects hold me back 🙂
Anyway, Bill has to refine the goal a bit more i think. By all means build synergy if you wanna experience how they perform but if the SPL capability is not needed then it would be a unnecessary complicated solution without obvious advantages from pure engineering perspective 🙂 I read the problem as "as loud and out of the way as the current Lowther setup, but with better sound quality".
I'd like to build synergy as well but the complexity and not finishing the previous projects hold me back 🙂
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10HX230 seems to be constant directivity 2kHz - 10Khz:
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/Coaxial_Loudspeakers/product_details/datasheet.php?id=351040010
I would use in a 3 way though due to minimize the cone movement.
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/Coaxial_Loudspeakers/product_details/datasheet.php?id=351040010
I would use in a 3 way though due to minimize the cone movement.
Danley Sound has a large number of speaker models.
Synergy Horn | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Synergy Molded Horns | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Perhaps find a design you like there and buy it $$$$ or try to imitate it. Bill Waslow's calculator can be a big help with your design.
Synergy Horn | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Synergy Molded Horns | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
Perhaps find a design you like there and buy it $$$$ or try to imitate it. Bill Waslow's calculator can be a big help with your design.
I don't have Danley money...
And on erin's site, they don't seem to have a smooth frequency response.
Ffing awsome site btw.
They don't need to go in the corner.
I've made on wall speakers with imo good results.
Forget about the TP1, that's not what I want (and anyone that wants high quality sound).
So far it seems its going to be difficult.
And on erin's site, they don't seem to have a smooth frequency response.
Ffing awsome site btw.
They don't need to go in the corner.
I've made on wall speakers with imo good results.
Forget about the TP1, that's not what I want (and anyone that wants high quality sound).
So far it seems its going to be difficult.
The on wall speakers I've made have a 30 degree pyramid shape with the top cut off. The speakers are mounted on a side of the pyramid.
So they're flat on the wall, but have a equilateral triangle listening angle, as is normal.
So they're flat on the wall, but have a equilateral triangle listening angle, as is normal.
Here's one: Ribbon Unity Horn
And another: Ribbon Unity Horn
To mount the speaker on a wall, you'd just want to cut the enclosure in half, and then make it twice as tall to compensate for the lack of depth. Volume would stay the same.
And another: Ribbon Unity Horn
To mount the speaker on a wall, you'd just want to cut the enclosure in half, and then make it twice as tall to compensate for the lack of depth. Volume would stay the same.
^Sorry totally forgot your work when stating existing projects are big and have diffraction! was thinking all the plywood stuff.
Bill, there is your best bet if you wanna synergy fast. You shoukd print some Patrick Bateman project!
Bill, there is your best bet if you wanna synergy fast. You shoukd print some Patrick Bateman project!
The micro Trynergy might work for you. It can be made of XPS foam and be very light weight to hang from a wall. You can also use plywood but mounts would need to handle more weight. I suppose concrete walls are good if proper anchors are used.
Presenting the Trynergy - a full range tractrix synergy.
It’s a FAST style speaker with an SB65WB25AC-4 full range for the apex driver and four 5.25in woofers crossed at 500Hz with DSP and active setup.
I also made a passive XO (1000Hz) for it (4x 8ohm woofers in series parallel so shown as 1 driver):
Presenting the Trynergy - a full range tractrix synergy.
It’s a FAST style speaker with an SB65WB25AC-4 full range for the apex driver and four 5.25in woofers crossed at 500Hz with DSP and active setup.
I also made a passive XO (1000Hz) for it (4x 8ohm woofers in series parallel so shown as 1 driver):
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