Hi Guys, this is my first post in DIY so apologies in advance for any lack of forum etiquette.
Now i am after making an exact replica pair of Danley SH-50s, i simply wanted myself a project to keep myself busy with and over the last few months i have been researching and familiarising myself with all aspects of the synergy horn. Massive respect for Tom Danley and his wizardry in being incredibly smart in getting incredible true point source sound. I can't thank him and those who have assisted on the forum, particulars include Patrick Batemen / Ivan Beaver and the many others who have shared their knowledge in all special aspects on the workings of the synergy horn.
Now my personal project is not for any financial gain, nothing will be sold for profit. I just need something to keep me sane and busy, It was after i went to a club in Amsterdam called De Marktkantine when i first heard the J1s and i was BLOWN AWAY! This sparked my inspired journey reading into the technology.
Currently i want to have full control over the Xover points/delays to make up for any small errors on the horn taps/spacing. I also have zero experience in making passive Xovers so i was thinking on relying on the MiniDSP approach.
My first question being are there any alternative chips to MiniDSP which don't break the bank, i was hoping there was an unbalanced HD version. I am looking to integrate the DSP box inside the speaker unit and then send out the 3 separate crossed over frequencies to three different amps, (Low/Mid/Hi) reserving the 4th output to be attached as an external SUB OUT female socket for any subwoofer that the speakers may sit on top of.
i was hoping i could get some good directions for amping the speakers separately with active crossovers..
The drivers included are...
CD - BMS 4550 (70wAES each)
Mid - Celestion TF0510MR (30wAES each)
Low - Faital Pro HP1020 (700wAES each)
The Faital is fairly straightforward, i am considering buying a plate amp (maybe with integrated DSP already available) I am considering 1800W is enough headroom to run both speakers on a 4Ohm Load.
Now the fiddly part, for the MIDs & 4550.
I am looking to fit an additional two amps to drive these speakers separately with an amp module coming off each OUTPUT of the miniDSP.
Does anyone have any recommendations for amplifiers that could drive the CD (70wAES) & MIDS (120wAES) separately. My concern would be under/over-powering & if the amplifier (particularly for the CD-BMS4550) is able to deliver the appropriate frequencies without flinching. I intend to put a failsafe passive crossover after the amp just incase the MINI DSP were to fail and blow my drivers. (HPF-24db-300hz MIDS / HPF-24db-700hz CD) I can buy these pre-made.
EXAMPLE: Sure Electronics AA-AB31282 1x200W Class D Audio Amplifier Board - T-Amp
If i could find a 120W mono amp, i think that would be enough headroom for the 4550... as for the Celestion i think 160-180Watt mono amp would be enough. i am more concerned over the compression driver and the amps ability to drive the high frequencies through it, as the Celestions are playing a very limited bandwidth i am not too concerned with the amps distortion.
Thanks
D
Now i am after making an exact replica pair of Danley SH-50s, i simply wanted myself a project to keep myself busy with and over the last few months i have been researching and familiarising myself with all aspects of the synergy horn. Massive respect for Tom Danley and his wizardry in being incredibly smart in getting incredible true point source sound. I can't thank him and those who have assisted on the forum, particulars include Patrick Batemen / Ivan Beaver and the many others who have shared their knowledge in all special aspects on the workings of the synergy horn.
Now my personal project is not for any financial gain, nothing will be sold for profit. I just need something to keep me sane and busy, It was after i went to a club in Amsterdam called De Marktkantine when i first heard the J1s and i was BLOWN AWAY! This sparked my inspired journey reading into the technology.
Currently i want to have full control over the Xover points/delays to make up for any small errors on the horn taps/spacing. I also have zero experience in making passive Xovers so i was thinking on relying on the MiniDSP approach.
My first question being are there any alternative chips to MiniDSP which don't break the bank, i was hoping there was an unbalanced HD version. I am looking to integrate the DSP box inside the speaker unit and then send out the 3 separate crossed over frequencies to three different amps, (Low/Mid/Hi) reserving the 4th output to be attached as an external SUB OUT female socket for any subwoofer that the speakers may sit on top of.
i was hoping i could get some good directions for amping the speakers separately with active crossovers..
The drivers included are...
CD - BMS 4550 (70wAES each)
Mid - Celestion TF0510MR (30wAES each)
Low - Faital Pro HP1020 (700wAES each)
The Faital is fairly straightforward, i am considering buying a plate amp (maybe with integrated DSP already available) I am considering 1800W is enough headroom to run both speakers on a 4Ohm Load.
Now the fiddly part, for the MIDs & 4550.
I am looking to fit an additional two amps to drive these speakers separately with an amp module coming off each OUTPUT of the miniDSP.
Does anyone have any recommendations for amplifiers that could drive the CD (70wAES) & MIDS (120wAES) separately. My concern would be under/over-powering & if the amplifier (particularly for the CD-BMS4550) is able to deliver the appropriate frequencies without flinching. I intend to put a failsafe passive crossover after the amp just incase the MINI DSP were to fail and blow my drivers. (HPF-24db-300hz MIDS / HPF-24db-700hz CD) I can buy these pre-made.
EXAMPLE: Sure Electronics AA-AB31282 1x200W Class D Audio Amplifier Board - T-Amp
If i could find a 120W mono amp, i think that would be enough headroom for the 4550... as for the Celestion i think 160-180Watt mono amp would be enough. i am more concerned over the compression driver and the amps ability to drive the high frequencies through it, as the Celestions are playing a very limited bandwidth i am not too concerned with the amps distortion.
Thanks
D
Attachments
Thanks for this, i remember seeing these somewhere on another thread with someone asking a similar question, i couldn't find it. This looks great at first glance for the MID and Tweeter only we would be looking at the Hypex Electronics B.V. i think the MIDs would be underpowered and be too demanding for that section but the HIGH would work nicely.. its just getting the MIDS and Woofers working all in the same box.
Originally i was thinking MINIDSP>3X AMPS
AMP1 MONO = 120W
AMP2 MONO = 150W
AMP3 MONO = 1500+W
XLRFemale OUT = External Sub (this finishes utilising all 4 outputs of the DSP and integration with a separate subwoofer would be super convenient)
Thanks
D
Originally i was thinking MINIDSP>3X AMPS
AMP1 MONO = 120W
AMP2 MONO = 150W
AMP3 MONO = 1500+W
XLRFemale OUT = External Sub (this finishes utilising all 4 outputs of the DSP and integration with a separate subwoofer would be super convenient)
Thanks
D
No way will the mids be underpowered with an FA503. Your mid section will have higher sensitivity than the compression driver and the amp will need its limiters set at ~100W on those channels.
Some people in the UAE would be rich enough to buy a pair of SH-50s, Danley Sound Labs Inc., and the town the factory is in 😀 Pleased to see a DIY attempt, none the less.
I have good results with an active EQ system using cheap components. It might be possible to do cheaper, but not sure....
Windows PC runs J River Media Center (which serves as active DSP and EQ for...)
MiniDSP USB Streamer (correct name): this gives me optical TOSLINK to a....
Behringer ADA-8200, ADAT input, up to 8 channels to a...
Behringer MX-882 "mixer" but also a good 8 ch. preamp....to amps of your choice.
Behringer is not to everyone's (more expensive) tastes here, but this is one solution.
I have good results with an active EQ system using cheap components. It might be possible to do cheaper, but not sure....
Windows PC runs J River Media Center (which serves as active DSP and EQ for...)
MiniDSP USB Streamer (correct name): this gives me optical TOSLINK to a....
Behringer ADA-8200, ADAT input, up to 8 channels to a...
Behringer MX-882 "mixer" but also a good 8 ch. preamp....to amps of your choice.
Behringer is not to everyone's (more expensive) tastes here, but this is one solution.
Thanks for this although i was looking at a more "built" in the box solution.
I have been browsing ICEpower and i have since found some really nice modules that could work, some of them include auxiliary power that could potentially be used to power the miniDSP. I think they could be a solution that works, considering that they are a reputable firm compared to some of the cheaper models found on ebay with questionable specs..
my only hunch is over the fact that ICE generally have their specs at 4Ohms, their amplifiers look as though they can run an 8Ohm Load but with less power.. The nice part is all the documentation they provide with their amplifiers is extensive..
Another issue i seem to be having is amplifier power, this is one of the very first things you address in speaker building is amplifier matching. I keep finding contradicting information in Matching speaker ratings to amplifier power, also some of IcePowers information says if you're driving around 20K their amps overheat and begin thermal shutdown.
EG. BMS4550 is rated at 80WAES.. does this call appropriately for an amp that handles 80WAES continuous power, given the headroom for reasons a 120W rating should be sufficient. So ideally an amp with a rating of 120w @ 8Ω and a continuous power rating of 80W without thermal shutdown. The ratios are most probably different in reality.
Take for instance the ICEPOWER 200AS1 (see attached)
Rated at 117W @ 8Ω and as for continuous power before thermal shutdown it mentions 130w @ 4Ω, this is around 80W less than the rated power @1THD... taking a wild guess i presume that with the 8Ω load rating @117w the provided continuous power would be underpowering the BMS4550. Does this call for an amp rated with more wattage.
If i can poke at anyones brains on this i would be delighted..
Kind Regards
D
I have been browsing ICEpower and i have since found some really nice modules that could work, some of them include auxiliary power that could potentially be used to power the miniDSP. I think they could be a solution that works, considering that they are a reputable firm compared to some of the cheaper models found on ebay with questionable specs..
my only hunch is over the fact that ICE generally have their specs at 4Ohms, their amplifiers look as though they can run an 8Ohm Load but with less power.. The nice part is all the documentation they provide with their amplifiers is extensive..
Another issue i seem to be having is amplifier power, this is one of the very first things you address in speaker building is amplifier matching. I keep finding contradicting information in Matching speaker ratings to amplifier power, also some of IcePowers information says if you're driving around 20K their amps overheat and begin thermal shutdown.
EG. BMS4550 is rated at 80WAES.. does this call appropriately for an amp that handles 80WAES continuous power, given the headroom for reasons a 120W rating should be sufficient. So ideally an amp with a rating of 120w @ 8Ω and a continuous power rating of 80W without thermal shutdown. The ratios are most probably different in reality.
Take for instance the ICEPOWER 200AS1 (see attached)
Rated at 117W @ 8Ω and as for continuous power before thermal shutdown it mentions 130w @ 4Ω, this is around 80W less than the rated power @1THD... taking a wild guess i presume that with the 8Ω load rating @117w the provided continuous power would be underpowering the BMS4550. Does this call for an amp rated with more wattage.
If i can poke at anyones brains on this i would be delighted..
Kind Regards
D
Attachments
Try TPA3255 - you will find plenty on eBay etc for $50 to $75. The $75 from 3e are very well made an worth the extra $.
miniDSP is a perfectly good way to do this and is super flexible with a nice user interface.
Dayton offers their own miniDSP like box and software for $150 for 8 channels. Seems like a good deal.
Dayton Audio DSP-408 4x8 DSP Digital Signal Processor for Home and Car Audio
This is just marvelous, thank you for pointing me in this direction. Very kind, still keen on Ice as the power supply design is super convenient, but you have opened up possibilities, for that i thank you kind sir. What was your take in regards to the power specifications for the drivers vs amp power?
There's the PWR-ICE 250 that could work well for mids and highs....
(shameless plug...I have a lightly used pair of these if interested)
PWR-ICE250 | DSP plate amplifier powered by IcePower technology
That said, I'm working on a similar synergy, probably 60x40 and honestly, I wouldn't even consider putting processing amps in the cabinet. The box is complicated enough, and heavy enough, as it is imo.
If any internal processing or amp channel fails, it seems like major trouble compared to outboard gear.
I'd run a NL-8 speakon out. just my 2c 🙂
(shameless plug...I have a lightly used pair of these if interested)
PWR-ICE250 | DSP plate amplifier powered by IcePower technology
That said, I'm working on a similar synergy, probably 60x40 and honestly, I wouldn't even consider putting processing amps in the cabinet. The box is complicated enough, and heavy enough, as it is imo.
If any internal processing or amp channel fails, it seems like major trouble compared to outboard gear.
I'd run a NL-8 speakon out. just my 2c 🙂
Thank you for your reply, you know i have been so reluctant in using everything externally, I am simply too afraid that i will wire my CD to the woofer out and bang.. but your correct.. taking everything apart is a bit of a chore and i may as well rely on speakon as i need to supply signal to the amps one was or another... given the amount of amps available on the internet along with various ways of processing with active crossovers it may do better justice. Especially when it comes to speaker tuning/Alignment etc.. I may just build a rack and have everything wire permanently..
I was just looking around for HF protection from over-current just incase something was to get wired incorrectly, or amps were to send too much signal. I came across some tweeter lamps, i presume these act like fuses and dissipate excess energy as light before finally blowing if overdriven.
As for the MIDs protection i was thinking a HPF set around 300hz as an actual crossover network that i will buy straight out..
You have any links of your project so far?
Thanks
D
You might want to look at Faital 3FE22 for the mids and splurge on the CD with a Faital HF144 and keep it "all in the family."
The 3FE22 is a wonderful sounding driver and if cost is an issue, get the 3FE25, half the price and almost as good but larger magnets. They both need a rear chamber though.
The reason I suggest the HF144 is that you will be able to XO at the usual 1.5kHz with less strain on the CD as it has deep reach. You might be able to XO at 1kHz even and avoid the dreaded 1kHz dip often seen on making the mid go higher than 1kHz.
The power of the TPA3255 is overkill for these but that means the amp operates at well below its limit. Operating the 3255 in SE mode (4 channels out) actually allows 100w/ch and lower THD and a more consistent HD profile (no rising high freq distortion). Then, a single TPA3255 in 4-chan SE mode can power both your speakers saving a ton of $ on amps. SE mode is cap coupled but don't let that thwart you.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.