Many (many) years ago I built a set of sealed speakers using the Tangband W3. Wow, I thought after building them, that's a really nice coherent sound. Shame about the total lack of bass and slightly soft treble.
I put them in a cupboard and forgot about them. Years passed and I am now using a set of ATC SCM11s with a Velodyne Microvee sub. Sounds great.
My living room is a weird shape though and one speaker has to sit right in a corner so I decided to bite the bullet and buy the Dirac room correction setup from miniDSP. Long story short, it's not perfect but I am a fan.
Out of curiosity I thought I'd dig the old Tangband monitors out and try them. With a high pass xover within the sub at 120Hz they don't need to handle too much bass, and the Dirac software to help with the slightly soft top end, I though they might sound pretty good.
Well, turns out they are fairly incredible. Detailed, non fatiguing, incredible for vocals, totally coherent soundstage. Quite a lot to like. Unfortunately, all of this is only true at low/medium volumes. Push them a bit harder and they fall apart. Everything gets congested in the mids and all the 'hifi' just goes.
I guess this is basically because you can only get so much from a 3" driver (even with a 120Hz xover).
Now, I'm betting that the thing that makes them so successful is that they are small point source speakers with no xover (basically they are full range).
So, finally cutting to the chase, I though 'what ~5" drivers are there out there that I could mount in simple sealed enclosures and use in the same setup?'. With the wee sub, I don't need bass extension below ~100Hz so all I'm really worried about is trying to recreate the 'full range' benefits in a small enclosure that can keep up at high-ish listening volumes.
I immediately looked at the Fostex drivers and immediately got confused.
So, basically, any tips on a good/great FR 5" driver for a sealed enclosure, greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
iep
I put them in a cupboard and forgot about them. Years passed and I am now using a set of ATC SCM11s with a Velodyne Microvee sub. Sounds great.
My living room is a weird shape though and one speaker has to sit right in a corner so I decided to bite the bullet and buy the Dirac room correction setup from miniDSP. Long story short, it's not perfect but I am a fan.
Out of curiosity I thought I'd dig the old Tangband monitors out and try them. With a high pass xover within the sub at 120Hz they don't need to handle too much bass, and the Dirac software to help with the slightly soft top end, I though they might sound pretty good.
Well, turns out they are fairly incredible. Detailed, non fatiguing, incredible for vocals, totally coherent soundstage. Quite a lot to like. Unfortunately, all of this is only true at low/medium volumes. Push them a bit harder and they fall apart. Everything gets congested in the mids and all the 'hifi' just goes.
I guess this is basically because you can only get so much from a 3" driver (even with a 120Hz xover).
Now, I'm betting that the thing that makes them so successful is that they are small point source speakers with no xover (basically they are full range).
So, finally cutting to the chase, I though 'what ~5" drivers are there out there that I could mount in simple sealed enclosures and use in the same setup?'. With the wee sub, I don't need bass extension below ~100Hz so all I'm really worried about is trying to recreate the 'full range' benefits in a small enclosure that can keep up at high-ish listening volumes.
I immediately looked at the Fostex drivers and immediately got confused.
So, basically, any tips on a good/great FR 5" driver for a sealed enclosure, greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
iep
Thanks! But, just a smidge pricey. Especially for something I can't listen to before purchasing.
Anything at about half that price which is worth taking a look at?
Cheers,
iep
Anything at about half that price which is worth taking a look at?
Cheers,
iep
You don't say which W3 model you have, but since you like your TB, you could always go with one of their 5in models, e.g. W5-2143.
Good point. It's the W3-871S.
Quite an old driver and one that I don't think you can get now.
Yes, I spotted the W5-2143. It looks nice (currently out of stock at Soundimports though). The obvious design to borrow would be the hobby hifi Merlin but it's a fairly large bass reflex design. Since I have a sub that I really like, I'm keen to stay with a smaller sealed enclosure.
Keen to hear of any designs like this that people have tried.
Cheers,
iep
Quite an old driver and one that I don't think you can get now.
Yes, I spotted the W5-2143. It looks nice (currently out of stock at Soundimports though). The obvious design to borrow would be the hobby hifi Merlin but it's a fairly large bass reflex design. Since I have a sub that I really like, I'm keen to stay with a smaller sealed enclosure.
Keen to hear of any designs like this that people have tried.
Cheers,
iep
Hi iep,
Why not keep the 3" and make a FAST system with them?
I've got some of these too and am hoping to use them in an enclosure with some 10" woofers crossed over at maybe 300hz with minidsp.
Why not keep the 3" and make a FAST system with them?
I've got some of these too and am hoping to use them in an enclosure with some 10" woofers crossed over at maybe 300hz with minidsp.
I'd rather keep number of speakers to the bear minimum. The total simplicity of a true FR driver (albeit with a sub for frequencies below 100Hz) really appeals to me.
Moving up to the 5" driver might dull the top end of the range but I figure the Dirac room/eq compensation will help with that.
Cheers,
iep
Moving up to the 5" driver might dull the top end of the range but I figure the Dirac room/eq compensation will help with that.
Cheers,
iep
Apparently they work very well in sealed enclosures, and even OB. Have a look at this thread:
Enclosure for Tang Band w5-2143
Also in this small enclosure:
XKi - X's ab initio Karlson 6th Order Bandpass
After years of using various kinds of speakers, I am very happy with the W5-2106. I use them in a BR enclosure so I could even get rid of my sub, but a closed box might be fine if you like to keep your subwoofer.
Tang Band W5-1611 SAF. I mention this because just yesterday I finished my first speaker build and so far I'm quite happy with them.
I can't compare to a lower priced model as these were a little expensive but bass is surprisingly good (I do have a ported design) and mids/highs are balanced very nicely. Once you push them the highs start to get a bit fatiguing but I only have a couple of hrs in them so far and have to say I like so far.
I can't compare to a lower priced model as these were a little expensive but bass is surprisingly good (I do have a ported design) and mids/highs are balanced very nicely. Once you push them the highs start to get a bit fatiguing but I only have a couple of hrs in them so far and have to say I like so far.
Thanks. Out of curiosity, with your Tang Band W5 drivers, are you using any passive EQ within the speakers (baffle step, notch filter or similar)?
Cheers,
iep
Cheers,
iep
Thanks. In theory, the dirac software should fix all minor peaks/troughs in the freq response so it would probably be a very simple build.
I had a similar experience with the Fe103en; (I bought off ebay as an impulse purchase) I couldnt believe "all that sound" was coming off those little 4" cones, barely moving. The coherence, as you say, was what really grabbed my attention.
The experience prompted me to invest in a set of 15" FRs, (which I read had some positive impressions) as a way to get a little better power handling. Even these are crossed using DSP to assist woofers.
One theory purports that human hearing is sensitive to phase anomalies in a range of, say, 1 to 10k - right where typical multiway speakers cross. That, plus my own experience with "liking for some reason" Altec speakers that crossed at 800, along with reading about how some prefer such designs despite considerable ragged HF response has led me to believe there just may be something to it.
As we all know, it's all a trade-off. I trade off the ability to go into head-crushing SPLs, as I never use them at such levels anyway and realize it's a nice to have in my case. Another listener prefers their "Can high SPLs be done with a two-way" design, perhaps trading off the coherency aspect. Choose a design that keeps as much as you can of what you like and looses as little as possible of that which is good to have.
Regarding whether FRs are the future, I think it's such a matter of taste that there will always be a large variety of designs and approaches. Like cars. At 63, I find my stock Subaru Forrester does so many things right that I really like it, but I'm sure a sports car enthusiast would consider it a joke. "What happens when you push it?" "Oh, yeah - I couldnt live with that - even as a daily driver".
Follow your perceptions and make your compromises accordingly; with at least some understanding of why.
The experience prompted me to invest in a set of 15" FRs, (which I read had some positive impressions) as a way to get a little better power handling. Even these are crossed using DSP to assist woofers.
One theory purports that human hearing is sensitive to phase anomalies in a range of, say, 1 to 10k - right where typical multiway speakers cross. That, plus my own experience with "liking for some reason" Altec speakers that crossed at 800, along with reading about how some prefer such designs despite considerable ragged HF response has led me to believe there just may be something to it.
As we all know, it's all a trade-off. I trade off the ability to go into head-crushing SPLs, as I never use them at such levels anyway and realize it's a nice to have in my case. Another listener prefers their "Can high SPLs be done with a two-way" design, perhaps trading off the coherency aspect. Choose a design that keeps as much as you can of what you like and looses as little as possible of that which is good to have.
Regarding whether FRs are the future, I think it's such a matter of taste that there will always be a large variety of designs and approaches. Like cars. At 63, I find my stock Subaru Forrester does so many things right that I really like it, but I'm sure a sports car enthusiast would consider it a joke. "What happens when you push it?" "Oh, yeah - I couldnt live with that - even as a daily driver".
Follow your perceptions and make your compromises accordingly; with at least some understanding of why.
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Maybe you should try the bigger Mark Audio drivers, especially the Alpair 10M does work as a true fullrange speaker. It can use some eq in the upper section, but it's not essential.
I use mine in a waw setup now, because i love deep subbass. But my 11.5L sealed cabinet with those gives quiet decent bass on it's own, and in a ported it can be as good as a 2 way bookshelf speaker. That is actually the project i'm doing now. I had that driver for years in a cabinet that was tuned to low (so i could only use half power) but it did sound very good and with a lot of bass for a single driver system. Now i'm trying to build the right cabinet for my second set of 10M's as bookshelfs. I'm waiting for the wood (covid got me on that) but sims show me a good flat response to 45Hz for a 18L ported cabinet (wich is not bad at all i think). But the proof of the pudding is the eating of course... I'll post the design and measurements when it's done.
And some others did the same with other Mark Audio drivers with good result also. Planet10 got a lot of proven designs on his sites, and others did the same.
And the bigger TB's can do similar things i thought. I heared a good ported box with the TB W8-1808 wich was also great (but i prefer Mark Audio drivers).
I use mine in a waw setup now, because i love deep subbass. But my 11.5L sealed cabinet with those gives quiet decent bass on it's own, and in a ported it can be as good as a 2 way bookshelf speaker. That is actually the project i'm doing now. I had that driver for years in a cabinet that was tuned to low (so i could only use half power) but it did sound very good and with a lot of bass for a single driver system. Now i'm trying to build the right cabinet for my second set of 10M's as bookshelfs. I'm waiting for the wood (covid got me on that) but sims show me a good flat response to 45Hz for a 18L ported cabinet (wich is not bad at all i think). But the proof of the pudding is the eating of course... I'll post the design and measurements when it's done.
And some others did the same with other Mark Audio drivers with good result also. Planet10 got a lot of proven designs on his sites, and others did the same.
And the bigger TB's can do similar things i thought. I heared a good ported box with the TB W8-1808 wich was also great (but i prefer Mark Audio drivers).
The Mark Audio 10m does look good. Loads of good reviews too. Same question I asked earlier, did you need to use any passive EQ in your existing design?
Cheers,
iep
Cheers,
iep
i did use some filtering (a simple LRC notch) on the top end in some designs (i have a few pairs of those), and in an other i didn't. It's not essential, but it helps to make the top less bright. Wihtout it's on the brighter side without being piercing bright, the notch helps to make it more neutral.
In the bookshelf i'm building now with a pair of 10M's to be used as pc speakers (so nearfield listening), i'm using a 0.22mh coil, a 3.9uF cap and a 10R resistor, all in parallel with each other but in series with the driver to flatten the response within 3dB. I used this before in an other build and this works very well for a single driver system with this driver. When in a passive crossover system with a sub the values change.
In the bookshelf i'm building now with a pair of 10M's to be used as pc speakers (so nearfield listening), i'm using a 0.22mh coil, a 3.9uF cap and a 10R resistor, all in parallel with each other but in series with the driver to flatten the response within 3dB. I used this before in an other build and this works very well for a single driver system with this driver. When in a passive crossover system with a sub the values change.
Thanks! That's really helpful. If the effect is relatively subtle I might rely on the Dirac software instead. I can always add the notch later if needed.
Ever impulsive, I went ahead an ordered some MarkAudio 10m drivers. Or, at least I think I have. There's an ebay seller selling Unmonday branded drivers quite cheaply. These are known to be MarkAudio 10 speakers and the seller claims they are definitely the 10.3 model. They certainly look identical and many have bought them from him and provided good feedback. So, taken a bit of a chance, we'll see...
My plan is to build something very like these:
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/simpleReflex-103-10p-plan-100214.pdf
However, in Covid lockdown, I'll be somewhat limited to what I have in the timber pile in my garage. So, volume will be ~17L but some dimensions may need to change based on what I have to hand.
Using Basta (my preferred speaker design software), it looks like a 15-17L enclusre tuned to ~45Hz should give a really nice response down to ~50Hz. Out of curiosity, what lead you to an 18L enclosure? Simulations in Basta suggest bass may get a bit peaky if the box is much larger than 15L (inlcuding room and baffle effects). Obvs, simulations are always an approximation, just curious what tool/assumptions you are using.
Lastly, I think I may build a switchable ~100Hz HP filter into the enclosure. I have some nice 150V 200uF caps so I can add those quite easily. Hopefully this will make integration with the sub a bit easier but allow allow me to use them stand alone or with an active xover.
So, that's the plan. Thanks for everyone's input. Hopefully they'll have the same 'magic' that they tiny Tang Bands have along with a bit more SPL capability.
Ever impulsive, I went ahead an ordered some MarkAudio 10m drivers. Or, at least I think I have. There's an ebay seller selling Unmonday branded drivers quite cheaply. These are known to be MarkAudio 10 speakers and the seller claims they are definitely the 10.3 model. They certainly look identical and many have bought them from him and provided good feedback. So, taken a bit of a chance, we'll see...
My plan is to build something very like these:
http://wodendesign.com/downloads/simpleReflex-103-10p-plan-100214.pdf
However, in Covid lockdown, I'll be somewhat limited to what I have in the timber pile in my garage. So, volume will be ~17L but some dimensions may need to change based on what I have to hand.
Using Basta (my preferred speaker design software), it looks like a 15-17L enclusre tuned to ~45Hz should give a really nice response down to ~50Hz. Out of curiosity, what lead you to an 18L enclosure? Simulations in Basta suggest bass may get a bit peaky if the box is much larger than 15L (inlcuding room and baffle effects). Obvs, simulations are always an approximation, just curious what tool/assumptions you are using.
Lastly, I think I may build a switchable ~100Hz HP filter into the enclosure. I have some nice 150V 200uF caps so I can add those quite easily. Hopefully this will make integration with the sub a bit easier but allow allow me to use them stand alone or with an active xover.
So, that's the plan. Thanks for everyone's input. Hopefully they'll have the same 'magic' that they tiny Tang Bands have along with a bit more SPL capability.
