I have now had my 989's for a few months and apart from the size ! I love them, the sounds is fantastic. But I am starting to think they could be improved a little bit.....
Someone mentioned that it might be worth trying them with a pair of "Supertweeters", I dont know anything about supertweeters has anyone listenede to them and can comment of their affect in particular with the 989s?
Are they worth and audition? what mrand/model would you recommmend?
Someone mentioned that it might be worth trying them with a pair of "Supertweeters", I dont know anything about supertweeters has anyone listenede to them and can comment of their affect in particular with the 989s?
Are they worth and audition? what mrand/model would you recommmend?
Hi,
hifi world had an article about using the £800/pair Townsend ribbon supertweeters.
As this is a DIY site I'd suggest you experiment with something somewhat cheaper.
Something like a pair of BG Neo 3 PDR's in bipole mode.
Where you'd get them from I'm not sure.
🙂/sreten.
hifi world had an article about using the £800/pair Townsend ribbon supertweeters.
As this is a DIY site I'd suggest you experiment with something somewhat cheaper.
Something like a pair of BG Neo 3 PDR's in bipole mode.
Where you'd get them from I'm not sure.
🙂/sreten.
This may be a stupid suggestion for someone with nice new and pretty 989s, but my ESL-63s really came alive in the top end when I got rid of the metal grills and the grill cloth altogether. The resulting speaker is butt-ugly, but sounds much more alive, airy and smooth on the top end (and elsewhere). A few people have even repackaged the Quads in new sturdier DIY frames that allowed for and compensated for deleting the metal grills. The metal grill and cloth make for a tough obstacle course for high frequencies. A reasonable compromise might to use something like very open tricot material (like panty hose but even more open) instead of the original cloth.
I worry about the addition of any tweeter to a large point source (spherical source) like the Quads. Timing and phasing will always be extremely difficult, and even if you could get it right at one precise seating location, if you move your head a a millimeter or two, you'd have have peaks and dips. The tweeter will be too many wavelengths away from the center of the Quad. The cure may be worse than the symptom. I don't want to discourage experimentation, but I wouldn't spend much money on it. Enjoy what you have. Maybe work instead on improving the other items in your rig.
I worry about the addition of any tweeter to a large point source (spherical source) like the Quads. Timing and phasing will always be extremely difficult, and even if you could get it right at one precise seating location, if you move your head a a millimeter or two, you'd have have peaks and dips. The tweeter will be too many wavelengths away from the center of the Quad. The cure may be worse than the symptom. I don't want to discourage experimentation, but I wouldn't spend much money on it. Enjoy what you have. Maybe work instead on improving the other items in your rig.
I thought the same as Brian. The ESL has a VERY different dispersion pattern to a normal super-tweeter. A BG Neo3-PDR placed coaxial, one on the front and one on the back with reversed phase and as close to the speaker as possible might work. It might even be possible to use an all-pass filter to get the phase more correct but I don't know.
Super tweeter
A friend of mine is running modified Acoustat 0ne plus 0ne's. He is also running JAS ribbon tweeters along side them. The improvement is substantial. He did spend considerable time in adjusting both position and phase to get the ribbons to intigrate properly but the effort has paid off. Why don't you loan a set home for a weekend from a local dealer and find out for yourseld in your own system. Regards Moray James.
A friend of mine is running modified Acoustat 0ne plus 0ne's. He is also running JAS ribbon tweeters along side them. The improvement is substantial. He did spend considerable time in adjusting both position and phase to get the ribbons to intigrate properly but the effort has paid off. Why don't you loan a set home for a weekend from a local dealer and find out for yourseld in your own system. Regards Moray James.
Different is good?
We had a pair of fancy ribbon tweeters (don't remember what) with ESL 64s and Gradient subs, and yes there was more treble. Harsh ribbon treble. But it was never right. If your hearing is going bad, then turn up the treble control, toe the speakers in, or tear off the cloth.
We had a pair of fancy ribbon tweeters (don't remember what) with ESL 64s and Gradient subs, and yes there was more treble. Harsh ribbon treble. But it was never right. If your hearing is going bad, then turn up the treble control, toe the speakers in, or tear off the cloth.
Hi witco0,
I think maybe your listening point is too high compared with the acoustic centre of the quad. You can try a solid base to stand up your 989. Not a "box-base" but a full solid of MDF. IMHO this can help treble
and soundstage also. With ESL63 of my friend it worked very well.
Cheers,
Inertial
I think maybe your listening point is too high compared with the acoustic centre of the quad. You can try a solid base to stand up your 989. Not a "box-base" but a full solid of MDF. IMHO this can help treble
and soundstage also. With ESL63 of my friend it worked very well.
Cheers,
Inertial
Re: Super tweeter
Moray,
As you may recall I have a pair of heavily modified 1 + 1's myself, (remember the power supply choke mod?) and I am very interested in your friend's experience. Do you have a source for these ribbons? Do you know how he crosses the ribbons over in terms of x-over components and sensitivity adjustment?
Thanks in advance for your trouble.
Robert
moray james said:
Moray,
As you may recall I have a pair of heavily modified 1 + 1's myself, (remember the power supply choke mod?) and I am very interested in your friend's experience. Do you have a source for these ribbons? Do you know how he crosses the ribbons over in terms of x-over components and sensitivity adjustment?
Thanks in advance for your trouble.
Robert
JAS Audio Orsa Ribbon Tweeters
http://www.charismaaudio.com/100K.html
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/orsa.htm
The orsa tweeter is a mono pole ribbon. My buddies Acoustats have been fitted with the choke supply mod. These ribbons come in a cylinderical housing with matching transformer and crossover selection built in. I would also seriously consider the Kings Audio Hummingbird dipole ESL super tweeter.
http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/product.asp
I should think that the dipole ESL tweeter would be an even better match. Further its ulta low mass diaphragm should provide stellar dynamics.
My friend did spend some time with positioning and with flipping phase back and forth. In the end the combination is superb. Check it out. Best regards Moray James.
http://www.charismaaudio.com/100K.html
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue20/orsa.htm
The orsa tweeter is a mono pole ribbon. My buddies Acoustats have been fitted with the choke supply mod. These ribbons come in a cylinderical housing with matching transformer and crossover selection built in. I would also seriously consider the Kings Audio Hummingbird dipole ESL super tweeter.
http://www.kingsaudio.com.hk/product.asp
I should think that the dipole ESL tweeter would be an even better match. Further its ulta low mass diaphragm should provide stellar dynamics.
My friend did spend some time with positioning and with flipping phase back and forth. In the end the combination is superb. Check it out. Best regards Moray James.
With a line source like Acoustats and an added line source super tweeter, you might have a fighting chance of making it work. But with an apparent point source like the Quads and a super tweeter very distant from the effective center of the point source, you'll likely have almost insurmountable wave interference problems.
well yes ......
Brian: you may well be right and I would not argue with your logic but that would not stop me from trying a set out. I have heard the JAS tweeters run along side a fair number of dynamic speakers the odd time spaced some distance from the tweeter still with very good results. If an audition is free then why not. best regards Moray James.
Brian: you may well be right and I would not argue with your logic but that would not stop me from trying a set out. I have heard the JAS tweeters run along side a fair number of dynamic speakers the odd time spaced some distance from the tweeter still with very good results. If an audition is free then why not. best regards Moray James.
Sure, if it's free.
But if it costs something... I think he's "barking up the wrong tree" trying to add a separate tweeter to a 989. You take a world-class coherent point source, arguably having among the best transient responses ever achieved, and add interfering wavefronts. There are so many things that can make a system sound reticent on top that I think we'd be remiss by encouraging a supertweeter as a solution, IMO.
Re: JAS Audio Orsa Ribbon Tweeters
Thanks for your help Moray. I must give this a try.
Robert.
moray james said:
Thanks for your help Moray. I must give this a try.
Robert.
As a long term ESL speaker and ribbon super tweeter user, I tend to agree with most of the points made here...
Brian's comment about mucking up the point source attributes of the Quad 989 is a valid one and should be treated with respect. And, I also agree with his suggestion that the first point of call to improve treble in any electrostat is to remove the grill cloth (this goes for any loudspeaker - cone or planar). The problem with grill cloths is 'absorption' of treble frequencies leading to a drop in intensity. The metal grills are actually less of a problem, even though they might physically block some of the treble they do not absorb treble frequencies.
With regard to super tweeters, I use a Raven R-1 or R-2 ribbon tweeter with my estats, crossed over at about 16kHz and with an attenuator in-line to adjust level to match the ESL's output. Sure, there is a slight mucking up of the pin-point imaging provided by using just the pure electrostat, but the inherent gains of a (percieved) lift in transparency & air, detail and extra sweetness makes using a super tweeter very enjoyable, IME.
Keep in mind that the beauty of using super tweeters and subwoofers ( I prefer Transmission Line types) is that when they start to annoy you - they can be switched off! So, my advice is give super tweeters a go you might be pleasantly surprised ...
Regards,
Steve M.
Brian's comment about mucking up the point source attributes of the Quad 989 is a valid one and should be treated with respect. And, I also agree with his suggestion that the first point of call to improve treble in any electrostat is to remove the grill cloth (this goes for any loudspeaker - cone or planar). The problem with grill cloths is 'absorption' of treble frequencies leading to a drop in intensity. The metal grills are actually less of a problem, even though they might physically block some of the treble they do not absorb treble frequencies.
With regard to super tweeters, I use a Raven R-1 or R-2 ribbon tweeter with my estats, crossed over at about 16kHz and with an attenuator in-line to adjust level to match the ESL's output. Sure, there is a slight mucking up of the pin-point imaging provided by using just the pure electrostat, but the inherent gains of a (percieved) lift in transparency & air, detail and extra sweetness makes using a super tweeter very enjoyable, IME.
Keep in mind that the beauty of using super tweeters and subwoofers ( I prefer Transmission Line types) is that when they start to annoy you - they can be switched off! So, my advice is give super tweeters a go you might be pleasantly surprised ...
Regards,
Steve M.
Steve, thanks for your post, its good to hear from someone who has heard a supertweeter with ESL's and also that you confirm the points others have made.
At the moment I dont have time to organise a demo or to look into the supertweeter options and from the posts here I am still not sure whether its worthwhile or not.
Steves post seems partly positive but I would love to know how much time he has the Supertweetes switched off ;-)
At the moment I dont have time to organise a demo or to look into the supertweeter options and from the posts here I am still not sure whether its worthwhile or not.
Steves post seems partly positive but I would love to know how much time he has the Supertweetes switched off ;-)
Hi wytcoO:
I mainly leave the super tweeter and subs 'On', its only on some very finely recorded acoustic material and female vocals that I switch them off.
Regards,
Steve M.
I mainly leave the super tweeter and subs 'On', its only on some very finely recorded acoustic material and female vocals that I switch them off.
Regards,
Steve M.
Steve M, have you compared your ER-Audio ESL III to Quad ESL 989 or other commercial electrostatic designs except for those you have refered to in http://www.eraudio.com.au. Maybe Quad ESL 989 hasn't any problem in high frequencies, meaning it doesn't need a supertweeter (ribbon for example)... 
P.S I have sent you a P.M about your 11" TL subwoofers and I am still waiting, but it's still ok 😎 . I hope that you will let us know how they manage to match your fast electrostats, and if they are better than your old design (8" TL) ...
Regards,
Mike
P.S I have sent you a P.M about your 11" TL subwoofers and I am still waiting, but it's still ok 😎 . I hope that you will let us know how they manage to match your fast electrostats, and if they are better than your old design (8" TL) ...
Regards,
Mike
Hi Michael,
Please do not misconstrue that the ESL-3 needs any help in the high frequencies - it does not! The speaker is quite capable of doing 25kHz treble and has better treble IMO than the Quad ESL-57 & 63; Martin Logans and also Acoustats that I've heard.
My use of a Raven ribbon supertweeter is a just a personal choice and some purists may not like it with the ESL-3 (it does muck up the soundfield a bit). The Raven extends to 45kHz and although the human ear supposedly only hears up to about 20kHz, for me, there is a perception of ambience and atmospherics that the Raven adds which I quite like!
As to the TL subs, I don't think there's much difference between the 8" & 11" Focal subs other than the bigger one has more ability to punch louder and maybe go a little lower (its got a more robust sound overall). But the penalty of the bigger sub is the large ugly box. For the ESL-3 where maintaining coherence, delicacy and transparency is a major factor, the 8" TL sub is more than adequate and much more room friendly.
BTW, I have not received any PMs from you ...
Regards,
Steve M.
Please do not misconstrue that the ESL-3 needs any help in the high frequencies - it does not! The speaker is quite capable of doing 25kHz treble and has better treble IMO than the Quad ESL-57 & 63; Martin Logans and also Acoustats that I've heard.
My use of a Raven ribbon supertweeter is a just a personal choice and some purists may not like it with the ESL-3 (it does muck up the soundfield a bit). The Raven extends to 45kHz and although the human ear supposedly only hears up to about 20kHz, for me, there is a perception of ambience and atmospherics that the Raven adds which I quite like!
As to the TL subs, I don't think there's much difference between the 8" & 11" Focal subs other than the bigger one has more ability to punch louder and maybe go a little lower (its got a more robust sound overall). But the penalty of the bigger sub is the large ugly box. For the ESL-3 where maintaining coherence, delicacy and transparency is a major factor, the 8" TL sub is more than adequate and much more room friendly.
BTW, I have not received any PMs from you ...
Regards,
Steve M.
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