I do not see how brand name companies would enforce minimum pay to their workers. In fact the sole reason to set up factories in China is to save cost , labour cost. Buy a Sony product that made in China may make me a bad person too..
Mostly you american guys may remember that NIKE was much sensured some years ago.
They even had to change their logo.
Their factories (in Pakistan, I think) employed children, and even the older people earned much less money than the minimum established there.
I don't blame manufacturers for making their products abroad, but please respect the laws of those countries, pay the minimum or above it, and pay the taxes.
Ok, enough of this.
Let's talk about "high-end"😱 cheappy-crappy😀 DVDs.
BTW, I'm a music lover.
For films, I use my son's Sony PS2.😀
It sounds MUCH better than MOST cheap DVDs, chinese or not, IMHO.
They even had to change their logo.
Their factories (in Pakistan, I think) employed children, and even the older people earned much less money than the minimum established there.
I don't blame manufacturers for making their products abroad, but please respect the laws of those countries, pay the minimum or above it, and pay the taxes.
Ok, enough of this.
Let's talk about "high-end"😱 cheappy-crappy😀 DVDs.
BTW, I'm a music lover.
For films, I use my son's Sony PS2.😀
It sounds MUCH better than MOST cheap DVDs, chinese or not, IMHO.
I believe there is an applicaion for the "cheepie crappy" dvd players in audio.Like anything a design can be improved and my question is what are the electronic improvements that can be made as the mechanical is an easy one to improve?
ron
ron
ron, the mechanical part is easy to improve?
You're not talking about the transport are you?
That's the most unreliable thing on those DVD players.😀
Believe it or not.
I wouldn't definitely spend my hard-earned money in making mods on such a cheap but unreliable device.
My point is, since the beginning, that it's not a wise move to spend 250 Euros tweaking an 80 Euros DVD.
This thread is about trying to put a Porsche motor on a FIAT.
You're not talking about the transport are you?
That's the most unreliable thing on those DVD players.😀
Believe it or not.
I wouldn't definitely spend my hard-earned money in making mods on such a cheap but unreliable device.
My point is, since the beginning, that it's not a wise move to spend 250 Euros tweaking an 80 Euros DVD.
This thread is about trying to put a Porsche motor on a FIAT.
Well i am more of an ME type than EE type.I was at one time very interesed in using a CD-Rom type reader as a transport but here were so many problems with my understanding of the elecronics
that i gave up. So i am looking for now is a modern day transport that i can wire into something like Scott Nixions chip DAC.It would be nice to have all the LED or other readouts and remote control and such that the CD reader dosent have.
ron
that i gave up. So i am looking for now is a modern day transport that i can wire into something like Scott Nixions chip DAC.It would be nice to have all the LED or other readouts and remote control and such that the CD reader dosent have.
ron
ron clarke said:
Exactly - it us as consumers of 85% of the worlds resources that make the decisions about the quality of products we purchase - When 500 people purchase a $29 DVD player and 1 person buys a $1000 DVD player that sends a message to the companies NOT making a el cheepo' version of their product. It spirals out of control until we have no choices but crap and high end... it's not that Chinese make inferior products - people are capable of making high quality anywhere - Germany/Japan/Mexico/Canada/US... it's the almighty dollar and the American Economy (and to some extent Europe) that drives this trend towards inferior product production - "build it as cheep as possible and put it on a Wal-Mart shelf" and it will sell like hot cakes - Some people might even get hurt. At this point and time there is really no way to avoid this pricing trend - and believe me it's not a good thing - just wait until that Heart-Lung machine is build in south east Asia with the cheapest parts possible and sold against the $1,000,000 American made version ...but of course it's "just as good" ...But I certainly wouldn’t'
t want to use one.
I'm all for a free market - where you have the right and choice to purchase whatever consumer goods you wish - it's just us-the people of North America/Eurpoe that make the crappy choices and buy the cheapest item we can - Why -
here's my theory :
Post WWII there was a trend to buy American Made products to Support the economy - and Americans were proud of the consumer goods that they produced and invented - Heck I'll bet there's not a Consumer product out there that does not have it's beginnings in the US (or very few) DVD players included. ...how come none are produced in the US ...Labor Cost - which directly relates to Price... (ask Philip Knight & Michael Moore about this one). ( interesting read )
...back to post WWII, Mom was at home raising kids, Dad was at work - People didn't have a LOT of money but the average family could afford a decent home and pay the bills and put food on the table - and put a little away for retirement. ...enter the Women’s Movement ...don't get me wrong - I'm all for Women working - that's not my point - my point is that now we move into a dual income economy where you would think things would be easier on the household income - but not so - because the economy shifted in line with the dual income pricing costs for EVERYTHING went up - Cars are a perfect example - look at the price of a new car in relation to the Average annual Salary in the mid 60's... vs. the price of a new car compared to today's Salary... big difference. ...So now we're stuck with a dual income economic pricing strategy that leaves most of us with very little disposable income - Enter the $29 DVD player.
just my 2 cents....
shanemac said:
I don't think you have established that machines made there use "inferior" parts.
What you will find is that they use the same parts as used in the states (or everywhere else in the world). the savings, as someone had pointed out, come mostly from labor and regulatory costs.
I just came back from China (a month ago), doing diligence on two US companies that have sizable operations there. the US employees are paid 30-40 dollas an hour while their Chinese counterparts 80 cents to 1.4 dollars an hour. as an investor, I cannot simply ignore that and hope I can still make favorable returns for my shareholders.
it boils down what games you want to play. The US used to be an emerging country in the sense that it is more productive and innovative than others. We knocked down doors, sometimes with our cannons, to trade with other countries. Now, the situation is reverse: we are setting barriers to prevent free trade with others. and some people are supportive of it.
Those people need to look no further than ex-world powers (the UK being the latest), how they reacted to challenges and where they ended up.
We have no choice but to figure out a way to be competitive and innovative so people will continue to buy from us. The borrowing-for-consumption that the general public here is so fond of has got to stop and we got to invest in ourselves and in our economy (not in the sense of protectionism or isolationism).
BTW, the trans-pacif flights used to be full of Japanese buying American properties. Now it is full of American businessmen sourcing from China.
Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
they didn't but they do now. The consortium was pretty admant about it in the last couple of years as China emerged as the number 1 dvd maker in the world.
That is the primary motivation for the Chinese's promoting of EVD, an enhanced version of DVD that owes no IP rights to the consortium.
that's not entirely true. $1/hour is more like the median pay rate. Yes, they do have retirement benefits and unemployment benefits, low-cost health care, unions, and an assortment of others. Keep in your mind that that's a country with 500 million workers but 150 million of them un- or under-employeed.
Plus, cost and standards of living is quite low there so $1 get you very very far: 50 cents will get you a very good lunch for example.
carlosfm said:
they didn't but they do now. The consortium was pretty admant about it in the last couple of years as China emerged as the number 1 dvd maker in the world.
That is the primary motivation for the Chinese's promoting of EVD, an enhanced version of DVD that owes no IP rights to the consortium.
carlosfm said:
that's not entirely true. $1/hour is more like the median pay rate. Yes, they do have retirement benefits and unemployment benefits, low-cost health care, unions, and an assortment of others. Keep in your mind that that's a country with 500 million workers but 150 million of them un- or under-employeed.
Plus, cost and standards of living is quite low there so $1 get you very very far: 50 cents will get you a very good lunch for example.
millwood said:
Thanks for your well thopuht out reply ...
It was not my intent to establish that inferior parts are or would be used - just seeing how other electronic devices of inferior design (not parts) have operated - I wouldn't want to put my life on that line...
Hi guys;
Interesting direction this thread has taken!
>>>...Buy a Sony product that made in China may make me a bad person too...<<<
Just for general information purposes, some Sonys are still made at the Tokyo plant (last time I checked anyway), and most all Panasonics are still made in Osaka. However, Sony (like Yamaha and NAD) has opened a large manufacturing concern in Malaysia, where their lower to middle end machines are made. Interestingly, an inspection of my Sony did not reveal any products with Chinese markings or OEMs, but did reveal a smattering of South Korean parts via Samsung.
Thus if you want to boycott Chinese products as a protest against their labour and environmental policies, you have some more information with which to work. Mind you, I'm neither condemning boycotts nor praising them - just trying to set the record straight! 🙂
All the best,
Morse
Interesting direction this thread has taken!
>>>...Buy a Sony product that made in China may make me a bad person too...<<<
Just for general information purposes, some Sonys are still made at the Tokyo plant (last time I checked anyway), and most all Panasonics are still made in Osaka. However, Sony (like Yamaha and NAD) has opened a large manufacturing concern in Malaysia, where their lower to middle end machines are made. Interestingly, an inspection of my Sony did not reveal any products with Chinese markings or OEMs, but did reveal a smattering of South Korean parts via Samsung.
Thus if you want to boycott Chinese products as a protest against their labour and environmental policies, you have some more information with which to work. Mind you, I'm neither condemning boycotts nor praising them - just trying to set the record straight! 🙂
All the best,
Morse
Re: Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
There was an interesting TV program a while ago about all
these companies moving their productions to China. (The wife
of one of my cousins lost her job for this reason, by the way.
She had to take a job at local slaughterhouse instead,
taking out the intestines of cattle throught their rectum. She
clearly preferred her previous job to assemble mobile phones
for Ericsoon, although that probably wasn't very fun either.)
Howver, one interesting thing that came up in the program
was that although the working conditions and salaries in China are quite bad to what we
are used to, the companies have problems with the employess
wanting to work more overtime than the comapnies can make
use of, and if they are not allowed this extra overtime they often
quit and go to other companies. True, though, that with higher
salaries they would possibly not demand to work overtime and
get a better life quality.
millwood said:
There was an interesting TV program a while ago about all
these companies moving their productions to China. (The wife
of one of my cousins lost her job for this reason, by the way.
She had to take a job at local slaughterhouse instead,
taking out the intestines of cattle throught their rectum. She
clearly preferred her previous job to assemble mobile phones
for Ericsoon, although that probably wasn't very fun either.)
Howver, one interesting thing that came up in the program
was that although the working conditions and salaries in China are quite bad to what we
are used to, the companies have problems with the employess
wanting to work more overtime than the comapnies can make
use of, and if they are not allowed this extra overtime they often
quit and go to other companies. True, though, that with higher
salaries they would possibly not demand to work overtime and
get a better life quality.
Re: Re: Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
Great post - there is always two sides to every story... I'm just waiting for the day the students at ITT Tech take over my job remotely. ...
Christer said:
Great post - there is always two sides to every story... I'm just waiting for the day the students at ITT Tech take over my job remotely. ...
Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
there is a piece in the latest Fortune about exactly that. Except that it is about India taking high-tech jobs and customer services jobs away from America.
It will happen, sooner or later, as long as we refuse to face the problem right on and look into ourselves to find a solution. Going to isolationism didn't work and will never work.
shanemac said:I'm just waiting for the day the students at ITT Tech take over my job remotely. ...
there is a piece in the latest Fortune about exactly that. Except that it is about India taking high-tech jobs and customer services jobs away from America.
It will happen, sooner or later, as long as we refuse to face the problem right on and look into ourselves to find a solution. Going to isolationism didn't work and will never work.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Thanks for contributing for slavery in the world.
I heard that Swissair mover their booking office to India a few
years ago. Of course they went bancrupt a while ago, but
those things were probably not correlated. It also seems some
progamming companies just write design specs and send them
to India for the programmers there to do the job.
millwood said:
I heard that Swissair mover their booking office to India a few
years ago. Of course they went bancrupt a while ago, but
those things were probably not correlated. It also seems some
progamming companies just write design specs and send them
to India for the programmers there to do the job.
Hi,
Because they're very good at it, Latka.
And being a little cheaper than the rest of us helps too, I reckon?
Cheers at 1$ a day?😉
Or are we all going to be out of a job sooner or later?
Cheers, 😉
Because they're very good at it, Latka.
And being a little cheaper than the rest of us helps too, I reckon?
Cheers at 1$ a day?😉
Or are we all going to be out of a job sooner or later?
Cheers, 😉
Hi Frank;
No offence intended at all, but I must respectfully disagree with:
(w/respect to programming jobs fleeing to India):
>>>...Because they're very good at it, Latka. And being a little cheaper than the rest of us helps too, I reckon?...<<<
Not long ago I saw a cost analysis that showed that at the end of the day, it was not any cheaper to go with an Indian concern than a US one, due to hidden costs involved in debugging the product - there are even US companies popping up that specialise in fixing "buggy" code from cut-rate companies. Unfortunately it's a case of lower up-front cost vs total long term costs (including hidden costs in terms of lost productivity and repairs to buggy code) - and too often the bean counters only care about the up-front price tag. My apologies for being a little thin skinned on that, but as a (former) programmer, it hits close to home! 🙂
As far as Chinese products undercutting US ones, that may not be the case much longer - the Yuan has been kept artificially devalued (according to both the Japanese and western business press), keeping their goods artificially cheap, and limiting the ability of the hoped for Chinese consumer economy to buy western goods. It's expected by many that with the nosedive in the value of the USD (due to the mass flight from investments in the dollar), that the Yuan will have to be permitted to float up to a free market value and suddenly the cost differential between a western product and a Chinese one will not be so very great after all.
One area though, where the Chinese will continue to hold an edge over Japan and the west, is environmental. Without pricey pollution laws to which their industries must adhere, the cost of manufacturing will always be artificially lower there than in a country with laws regulating pollution. A solution to that would be in the form of a "pollution tariff" on products from countries without environmental controls on manufacturing, to level the playing field.
To go back on topic, it's sort of like buying the cheapest no-name DVD player available (of dubious quality) and spending twice the purchase price putting it's problems to right - better to just buy a better one (NOT some gold plate 'audiophile' model, but a solid performer from a reputable concern with a track record for reasonable reliability and customer service) in the first place and save the hassles, but what do I know?.... Still, once reliable operation is assured, it's very possible to tweak a very modest mainstream player (maybe "super cheap yet reliable" would be a better description for the ideal?) into pretty darn good performance. Those relatively trivial chassis damping and RF tweaks I mentioned previously have really improved my whole system's performance. Now I just need to get some Elna Cerafines or BG's and replace the audio output caps.....
All the best and good luck on all your projects!
Morse
No offence intended at all, but I must respectfully disagree with:
(w/respect to programming jobs fleeing to India):
>>>...Because they're very good at it, Latka. And being a little cheaper than the rest of us helps too, I reckon?...<<<
Not long ago I saw a cost analysis that showed that at the end of the day, it was not any cheaper to go with an Indian concern than a US one, due to hidden costs involved in debugging the product - there are even US companies popping up that specialise in fixing "buggy" code from cut-rate companies. Unfortunately it's a case of lower up-front cost vs total long term costs (including hidden costs in terms of lost productivity and repairs to buggy code) - and too often the bean counters only care about the up-front price tag. My apologies for being a little thin skinned on that, but as a (former) programmer, it hits close to home! 🙂
As far as Chinese products undercutting US ones, that may not be the case much longer - the Yuan has been kept artificially devalued (according to both the Japanese and western business press), keeping their goods artificially cheap, and limiting the ability of the hoped for Chinese consumer economy to buy western goods. It's expected by many that with the nosedive in the value of the USD (due to the mass flight from investments in the dollar), that the Yuan will have to be permitted to float up to a free market value and suddenly the cost differential between a western product and a Chinese one will not be so very great after all.
One area though, where the Chinese will continue to hold an edge over Japan and the west, is environmental. Without pricey pollution laws to which their industries must adhere, the cost of manufacturing will always be artificially lower there than in a country with laws regulating pollution. A solution to that would be in the form of a "pollution tariff" on products from countries without environmental controls on manufacturing, to level the playing field.
To go back on topic, it's sort of like buying the cheapest no-name DVD player available (of dubious quality) and spending twice the purchase price putting it's problems to right - better to just buy a better one (NOT some gold plate 'audiophile' model, but a solid performer from a reputable concern with a track record for reasonable reliability and customer service) in the first place and save the hassles, but what do I know?.... Still, once reliable operation is assured, it's very possible to tweak a very modest mainstream player (maybe "super cheap yet reliable" would be a better description for the ideal?) into pretty darn good performance. Those relatively trivial chassis damping and RF tweaks I mentioned previously have really improved my whole system's performance. Now I just need to get some Elna Cerafines or BG's and replace the audio output caps.....
All the best and good luck on all your projects!
Morse
Hey I thought this was about DVD players. Heck everyone's having fun so I'm going to join.
It's very interesting how all the experts were touting free trade for over twenty years and you could see the writing on the wall as to the effects and the transitory period towards the end game. The key problem with economic theory and free trade is that economists hardly understand dynamic systems and transition. So their touting of the eventual result while correct does not consider what it would take.
Economic theory expects perfect capitalism which is truly raw and cold and MEAN. The shift of jobs to other places requires in theory that some North American workers pack up and go there to work. Anyone see that happening to any large degree? Furthermore, how does economic theory deal with "regulated" services such as medicine, law etc. Can't.... I'm afraid. Can you see medical professions allowing chinese doctors to come to the US to work thereby reducing medical costs?.........Hah. That's true capitalism my friend. Health care costs would come down. Wages need not be so high. Regulated professions are keeping their mouth SHUT about trade cause they have the most to lose.
The poor worker who is not rich is going to take the brunt of this transition.
The economic theory that is touted that isolation and protectionism cannot work has as many flaws as the other paradigm. The issue is that the people who will benefit from free trade wants this to occur so that they better themselves. The poor worker is in no position to change these affairs. Protectionism did not work because the worker in an area that was protected could not be battered down and bargained down.
If you ask ANY worker in the world if they wanted to work harder and longer than they need to the answer is obvious. NO. The chinese worker enjoys relaxation too. They just want to earn more money. However if their pay is not regulated then they will accept anything to put food on the table - in all of this you get a situation where the wealthy gets wealthier as the products consumed are cheaper, but the poor worker whose wage has dropped has become worse off because even though prices have stabilised, the real wage income has dropped.
Does anyone even wonder how much those factory workers at $30 an hour is going to earn in the "service" industry which is creating jobs. You don't wanna know.
True economic wealth in the world is a zero sum game. I say TRUE economic wealth, you need to measure that accurately. Put liquid in a U tube, it'll equalize. The low one comes up but what happens to the other side..................
One thing for sure..... the US is running on momentum. Purely momentum, it has some leaky cylinders and the last stimulus was Nitrous dropped in. The inevitable is still there.........Nitrous does not fix an engine.
It's very interesting how all the experts were touting free trade for over twenty years and you could see the writing on the wall as to the effects and the transitory period towards the end game. The key problem with economic theory and free trade is that economists hardly understand dynamic systems and transition. So their touting of the eventual result while correct does not consider what it would take.
Economic theory expects perfect capitalism which is truly raw and cold and MEAN. The shift of jobs to other places requires in theory that some North American workers pack up and go there to work. Anyone see that happening to any large degree? Furthermore, how does economic theory deal with "regulated" services such as medicine, law etc. Can't.... I'm afraid. Can you see medical professions allowing chinese doctors to come to the US to work thereby reducing medical costs?.........Hah. That's true capitalism my friend. Health care costs would come down. Wages need not be so high. Regulated professions are keeping their mouth SHUT about trade cause they have the most to lose.
The poor worker who is not rich is going to take the brunt of this transition.
The economic theory that is touted that isolation and protectionism cannot work has as many flaws as the other paradigm. The issue is that the people who will benefit from free trade wants this to occur so that they better themselves. The poor worker is in no position to change these affairs. Protectionism did not work because the worker in an area that was protected could not be battered down and bargained down.
If you ask ANY worker in the world if they wanted to work harder and longer than they need to the answer is obvious. NO. The chinese worker enjoys relaxation too. They just want to earn more money. However if their pay is not regulated then they will accept anything to put food on the table - in all of this you get a situation where the wealthy gets wealthier as the products consumed are cheaper, but the poor worker whose wage has dropped has become worse off because even though prices have stabilised, the real wage income has dropped.
Does anyone even wonder how much those factory workers at $30 an hour is going to earn in the "service" industry which is creating jobs. You don't wanna know.
True economic wealth in the world is a zero sum game. I say TRUE economic wealth, you need to measure that accurately. Put liquid in a U tube, it'll equalize. The low one comes up but what happens to the other side..................
One thing for sure..... the US is running on momentum. Purely momentum, it has some leaky cylinders and the last stimulus was Nitrous dropped in. The inevitable is still there.........Nitrous does not fix an engine.
Hi Mikett;
Interesting thoughts.
>>>...One thing for sure..... the US is running on momentum. Purely momentum, it has some leaky cylinders and the last stimulus was Nitrous dropped in. The inevitable is still there.........Nitrous does not fix an engine...<<<
Yep you certainly got that right. FWIW, I've been using both the analogy of a farmer who's sold his seed corn and the analogy of the carpenter who's sold his tools. It might feel like we're wealthy for a while, but when the influx of wealth the US received in the form of artificially cheap products from shipping off it's manufactories runs out, a bitter harvest will be the result. And anyone who thinks we can bring home the machine tools that headed east is a fool; my take on the Peking regime is that they'd cheerfully nationalise all the industries that have set up shop there rather than see them exit.
All the best,
Morse
Interesting thoughts.
>>>...One thing for sure..... the US is running on momentum. Purely momentum, it has some leaky cylinders and the last stimulus was Nitrous dropped in. The inevitable is still there.........Nitrous does not fix an engine...<<<
Yep you certainly got that right. FWIW, I've been using both the analogy of a farmer who's sold his seed corn and the analogy of the carpenter who's sold his tools. It might feel like we're wealthy for a while, but when the influx of wealth the US received in the form of artificially cheap products from shipping off it's manufactories runs out, a bitter harvest will be the result. And anyone who thinks we can bring home the machine tools that headed east is a fool; my take on the Peking regime is that they'd cheerfully nationalise all the industries that have set up shop there rather than see them exit.
All the best,
Morse
Morse said:
This is a VERY good analogy to the current global economic situation.
this is true - I predict that after the China Economic Machine and Capitalism is fully entrenched in China - The Consumption Machine (North America & The EU) will go looking for another ripe plum to pick - Ummmm how about Africa they need some factories and jobs.... just my 2 cents. 😉
...of course that's about 15-20 years off.... and who know what'll happen down that road.
With the research being done with nano-tech ...we'll be in phase 1 of the nano-tech revolution. Nano lithography drives the size of a wrist watch that could hold 3-4TB worth data... nano assemblers, and de-assemblers …we will then all need to change our thinking about what an Economy “IS” …when at a certain point if you want the new Ford Explorer – you download it and have it build in your driveway by nano-assemblers (provided that the raw materials are available) ….great now I’ve come out of the crack-pot closet
Kill Willie...!!!???...or...something....
WHY!!!! do this turn in to a discussion about car's, and politics ????
Isn't this forum meant as a technical forum, or...???
I am sure U can find elsewere discussing Politics, world economy, and CAR's, and..... !?
....what will be the next.....???....sex?, drugs?, killing whales?...violent movies?....
Just a little torch.....😉
WHY!!!! do this turn in to a discussion about car's, and politics ????
Isn't this forum meant as a technical forum, or...???
I am sure U can find elsewere discussing Politics, world economy, and CAR's, and..... !?
....what will be the next.....???....sex?, drugs?, killing whales?...violent movies?....
Just a little torch.....😉
- Status
- Not open for further replies.