Summer Project

[edjosh23]

It is finally summer, although being a kid I should have more time than during the school year, but to tell you the truth I don't. I'm working at my mechanic shop for 45 hours a week, but that means more money to build speakers. I've decided that its finally time for me to build some front speakers.

I want some somewhat efficient speakers. I'd like 88db or higher. The big thing I want is BASS. The wr125s do pretty good in the bass department, but not good enough. I'm thinking about the seas P21RF/P (H511). It seems to be a pretty good. The thing that I was looking for was bass repsonce and a good frequency range. Since it will be a two way I need the woofer to be crossed over very high, and the tweeter very low.

What I'm having trouble finding is a tweeter to match this woofer. I was originally thinking of the vifa ring radiator (because of the group buy, which is now off) because it can go pretty low, but Dave says that the crossover could be difficult to design.

The other option was a ribbon tweeter because they can be crossed pretty low, but again I'm not sure if I am skilled enough for the crossover design, but I'm always willing to try it out. I want to try a ribbon tweeter because off all the great things I've heard about them.

My total budget, will be about $400, preferably less, because I'm planning on building other things this summer and money has to be saved to build throughout the school year.

Are there any other woofers that can reproduce the lows and go up to pretty high frequencies?
What would be a good tweeter to match the woofer and meets the needs to reproduce the lower highs?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[BassAwdyO]

Adire's Extremis6 might be worth considering. Efficency is rather low at 86db but if you use 2 per channel you can gain a bit back. I have a pair and love them! They can go low (30hz in a ported box easily) and they can go high (no problems below 3k where I'm crossing at, but I'm sure they can go higher)

 

[planet10]

If you want bass, have you considered building a pair of powered woofers to go with the WR125s (i can't see many 8' keeping up with these in the critical midrange... a pr of extremis, a pair of peerless WR220, a pr of ApexJr 8s, a pair of <many choices) per side...

dave

 

[edjosh23]

Dave, I cannot add powered subs to my wr125s because I have an integrated amp. This summer I am building an xls sub.

2 extremises would be nice, but that would eat up my budget. I could do that if I got a cheaper tweeter, but I want a really nice tweeter.

I can maybe go with less efficiency to 1 extremis per side, but I was really hoping for more efficient speakers.

Dave I'm not sure which peerless your talking about the 830411 looks pretty good. I could go with two of those and a tweeter no preblem.

The Hi-Vi RT8II looks like an interesting tweeter.

Any other suggestion?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[planet10]

I cannot add powered subs to my wr125s because I have an integrated amp. This summer I am building an xls sub.

Maybe one of your projects should be adding pre out/power amp in to your integrated... or just build your own.

The woofers could always be passive, but XO would need to be 250-300 Hz.

dave

 

[edjosh23]

The wr125s will be rebuilt, into a very neat cabinet and made into rear speakers. The fronts I would like to be a simple 2 way with lots of bass and preferably a TL. And then I'm going to make a Peerless XLS w/ passive radiator sub that will be similar to my bed side table.

Josh

 

[planet10]

The wr125s will be rebuilt, into a very neat cabinet and made into rear speakers. The fronts I would like to be a simple 2 way with lots of bass and preferably a TL.

Just seems a bit strange to put the speakers with the best mids in the back...

dave

 

[GM]

Greets!

Since you'll be adding a sub it sounds like what you need is midbass 'slam' with a low Fb, so a reasonably high efficiency design such as this should 'fill the bill': http://www.pispeakers.com/AvailableComponents.htm#Thermionic

GM

 

[dwk123]

The wr125s will be rebuilt, into a very neat cabinet and made into rear speakers. The fronts I would like to be a simple 2 way with lots of bass and preferably a TL. And then I'm going to make a Peerless XLS w/ passive radiator sub that will be similar to my bed side table.

Josh

Well, I'm going to agree here that if you already have the wr125's, assigning them to rear channel duty is a mistake. I seriously doubt you will get a speaker for $400/pr that will have good bass and come anywhere close to the wr125 in overall performance.

Honestly, I'd seriously consider looking at the new '641' kit that Exodus is prepping. Mates the wr125 with the extremis and the usher tweeter. It's still on the drawing board so price is in flux, but it'll probably be closer to $500-$550 even if you have the wr125's. However, I fully suspect that it will be a far better speaker overall than any 2-way of comparable price. (oh, yeah - it'll also be inefficient - probably 85dB at best) See audiocircle for prelim info.

Barring that, if you really want a completely new two way, look into the myriad of projects using the new Dayton RS series drivers. An MTM with the RS180 and RS28a would be an idea. You *might* be able to squeeze a 2-way with the RS225 and the RS28, but maybe not. Check the parts express board or htguide for the Dayton designs.

 

[studiotech]

I would have to second the choice of the Parts Express reference series drivers....at least the tweeter. The woofers require some rather complex crossovers to sound their best, so the price begins to rise, but their measured distortion performance can't really be beat anywhere near the price.

Not to get too off topic, but Dave have you been pleased with the performance of the Apex super 8's? Any comments on their quality or lack there of?

Greg

 

[planet10]

Not to get too off topic, but Dave have you been pleased with the performance of the Apex super 8's? Any comments on their quality or lack there of?

I'm quite pleased with it in the HT system... it hasn't any mileage of the HiFi system -- the XO sits uncompleted on my coffee table...

dave

 

[jleaman]

I'm quite pleased with it in the HT system... it hasn't any mileage of the HiFi system -- the XO sits uncompleted on my coffee table...

dave

I agree with teh crossover in a none compleet form.

 

[edjosh23]

I got my first paycheck today, and I'm gettin paid a little more than expected. I'm thinking of perhaps going to dual extremises.

I love the wr125s, but they just don't have the bass I want nor the efficiency. They sound great and would be really nice in a three way, but I don't want to build a three way because of the my amplifier.

With the dual extremis I'm willing to spend up to $150 on the tweeters. Any suggestions.

I haven't had much time this week because of work and the beggining of freedom (summer) and now I'm going up to my girlfriend's lake house. When I get back I'll look up those kits that were mentioned. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Thanks,

Josh

 

[edjosh23]

I looked at those kits mentioned. I like the Exodus kits, but I'd prefer a little bit more efficiency.

For school I am doing a research paper on Transmission Line enclosures and their benifits over bass reflex and sealed enclosures. The teacher that is helping me wants to me build some transmission lines and test them verses the same driver is sealed and bass reflex cabinets. I like the idea of dual woofers but would I have to change port legnth with dual drivers in a transmission line enclosure?

Since everyone seems to like ribbon tweeters I think I'll try them out for this project. I think I will try the AC G2Si.
I like Troels Gravesen's TJL design but since I'd like a little more bass I was thinking of using perhaps the Seas P21RF/P (H511).

I can cross the drivers over at about 2500hz or so and have good off axis responce from the woofer and still good spl.
The drivers are pretty inexpensive and if I don't like them very much I'm sure I can figure out some way to use them.
Any comments?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[AJinFLA]

Low XO tweeter

Take a look at these if you want a low XO tweeter. Very inexpensive too.
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?cart_id=4671630.26597&pid=1000
There are others in the 27 series as well. Some data.
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/Seas27_comparison/seas_comparison.htm
A step up
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=275-130
Excellent performer for the price. Data.
http://206.13.113.199/ncdiyaudio/mark/tweeter_9_usher/usher_comparison.htm
Hangs with the Millennium - a State of the art design.
More info on both
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13252
The Seas woofer you like should work fine.
And finally, an actuall design. Those woofers are also terrific performers. May also suit your budget.
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/dr-k-mtm/index.html
Good luck.

Cheers,

AJ

 

[edjosh23]

I've heard great things about that dayton tweeter and good things about the woofer. The reason I don't want to mess dayton right now is because I hear the crossovers are a little difficult to design.

This set of speakers will be my last big thing for a while and I'm going to work on the crossovers a lot and I'm going to try a lot of different component values to try and get it perfect. I'd like to be able to take these to college and if not these large enclosures I'll build smaller ones for a dorm in a couple of years.

The seas woofers just seem to have what what I'm looking for and they are pretty efficient to where I can build a tube amp and they will work well on there. (a somewhat powerfull tube amp though).

Thanks for your suggestions. Any other suggestions? What would be an apropriate tuning frequency for these woofers? Is 30hz too low?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[edjosh23]

Troels sent me a speadsheet that used room acoustics with the speaker parameters and box design to show frequency responce and it showed me that the Seas P21RF had little low extention so I'm thinking of using the Fostex FW208N this one and I cannot decide which ribbon tweeter to use. The Fostex FT7RP or the AC G2SI or I could even try the Fountek NeoCD2 which is not that much more than the other ribbons. Any suggestions?

I want this two way to be pretty efficient that is why I have chosen the Fostex FW208N, are there any other high efficient woofers with good low end extention?

Thanks,

Josh

 

[Timn8ter]

Would you explain why you're concerned with the sensitivity of the drivers? You mentioned a "powerful" tube amp but that still leaves me perplexed.

If you're adding a sub later why are you concerned with LF response? If you could have something that reached sub 40Hz would that be good enough?

 

[edjosh23]

After this year I'll be in a dorm and I don't want to fill my roomate and my dorm with speakers and a sub, so I want to build some speakers that can play most frequencies. And the person who build Troels's TJL said that the speakers were very inefficient and that to fully power those speakers (mostly the excel) you would need atleast 200watts.

The other reason is my parents are getting ready to trash their living room speakers and I'de love to build them a speaker like this for them. They do not have a sub, only 2 channel.

Powerful tube amp means when I build my tube amp, which won't actually be very powerfull, except compared to say the Bottlehead SEX, but hopefully 20w or so per channel.

Josh

 

[Timn8ter]

At 20w/ch you could power an Extremis 6.8 based design and get far better performance than the drivers you've mentioned and at a lower cost. I have one in a 25 liter cabinet being driven by my EL34 push-pull which is extremely loud at half volume. Please keep in mind that sensitivity is typically measured at 1kHz. I'm pretty sure you don't listen to 1kHz tones while sitting 3 feet from your speaker. IOW, like all specs given to speakers, it doesn't tell the whole story. If it's 90db/w/m at 1kHz what do you suppose it is at 800Hz or 300Hz?