Hi, I've got two venues that I'd love to improve the PA system at, preferably with the same set of speakers (though being modular may solve this). My primary goal is to improve sound clarity. I've only built home-audio and car audio (sq not spl) speakers systems in the past, but have done a medium amount of live-show sound. I'm familiar with hornresp (though not an expert) and the principles of quarter-wave designs.
Space 1: This is an intimate 180-seat theatre with circular wood-panel walls, high ceiling, large stage (at least 30% of the space is the stage), gently sloped and well-padded seating.
I'm involved in putting on some hall-of-fame level acts here, but the house speakers are leaving me wanting.
Space 2: It's an outdoor bandshell (~40ft wide) at a flat grassy park with 100m² of space. The shows here are afternoon events with lawn chairs setup, not densely-crowded, mostly classic rock, blues, and jazz.
Both spaces have rigging available.
So my question is, where to start researching?
Are multi-entry horns the de-facto build around here for sound clarity at volume?
Are there brands or driver lines that are much higher regarded than others?
I'm open to almost any budget plan below ~$4k at this point, and I understand the challenge of the two vastly different acoustic environments. A compact-ish setup would be nice, but certainly not a limiting factor at all. Sound quality is the main goal while meeting the SPL needs of each space.
Space 1: This is an intimate 180-seat theatre with circular wood-panel walls, high ceiling, large stage (at least 30% of the space is the stage), gently sloped and well-padded seating.
I'm involved in putting on some hall-of-fame level acts here, but the house speakers are leaving me wanting.
Space 2: It's an outdoor bandshell (~40ft wide) at a flat grassy park with 100m² of space. The shows here are afternoon events with lawn chairs setup, not densely-crowded, mostly classic rock, blues, and jazz.
Both spaces have rigging available.
So my question is, where to start researching?
Are multi-entry horns the de-facto build around here for sound clarity at volume?
Are there brands or driver lines that are much higher regarded than others?
I'm open to almost any budget plan below ~$4k at this point, and I understand the challenge of the two vastly different acoustic environments. A compact-ish setup would be nice, but certainly not a limiting factor at all. Sound quality is the main goal while meeting the SPL needs of each space.
For clarity, are you looking for a system, for up to $4k, which would work well for either space?
Do you have any equipment already, or are you starting from scratch?
Chris
Do you have any equipment already, or are you starting from scratch?
Chris
Chris there is already a full system with console and amps and speakers at both locations. It sounds muddy and peaky and I trust building new speakers is the fastest way to remedy this. I would like to build one set of speakers than can be used at either space.
Can you detail exactly what equipment is currently installed in these venues and how it is deployed and processed? Having a baseline to compare against goes a long way towards knowing how much improvement can be accomplished. And speakers alone may or may not get you there, if a venue has an unaddressed acoustics problem there is nothing you can do with equipment that will overcome it. I don't know how many venues I have been in that had audio equipment installed incorrectly... churches, schools, wedding centers. It's hard to believe but the number of times I have seen speakers mounted 15-20ft up on a wall pointed straight back is crazy. A church I do a bit of work for recently installed a 6 box CC array, only the lower 2 boxes actually point down at the congregation the other 4 are pointed at the back wall. 😵
For the theatre I would do left center right loudspeakers. Since it is short but wide throw, I would use at least a 90 degree or more horn with a compression driver and horn. I would not use a 4” compression driver but a smaller 2” type. I would do it as a three way with an active crossover. 15” woofers should probably provide enough low frequency energy. A Danley style full range horn box could work, but I would aim for something simpler.
Ideally the loudspeakers would be mounted at a height of 1/2 to 1/3 of the farthest throw.
Quite simply it is hard to screw up such a clean space. So I would look for signal processing either in a stand alone unit or built into the amplifiers are screwing up the sound. So I would start at why things aren’t so good first. An easy start is to power the existing loudspeakers from a different amplifier and observe how that changes things.
Ideally the loudspeakers would be mounted at a height of 1/2 to 1/3 of the farthest throw.
Quite simply it is hard to screw up such a clean space. So I would look for signal processing either in a stand alone unit or built into the amplifiers are screwing up the sound. So I would start at why things aren’t so good first. An easy start is to power the existing loudspeakers from a different amplifier and observe how that changes things.
Simon,
Simply sticking a different amp in there could be very dangerous for the existing installation. We have no idea if the current amps have any signal processing, so there's a reasonable chance you're suggesting feeding a full-range signal to the tweeters.
stochastic,
The fastest way to fix an existing system is to figure out why it's broken. Replacements take time. Take a walk through the venue, and note the makes/models of all the equipment. Next, confirm that everything is, in fact, working. Run pink noise (or a familiar piece of music) through the system, and walk around. Does each side have bass/mid/treble?
Assuming everything's working okay, it's time to dig into how things are set up. It might be as simple as a badly-set graphic EQ, or as complex as replacing drivers and reprogramming a DSP.
Chris
Simply sticking a different amp in there could be very dangerous for the existing installation. We have no idea if the current amps have any signal processing, so there's a reasonable chance you're suggesting feeding a full-range signal to the tweeters.
stochastic,
The fastest way to fix an existing system is to figure out why it's broken. Replacements take time. Take a walk through the venue, and note the makes/models of all the equipment. Next, confirm that everything is, in fact, working. Run pink noise (or a familiar piece of music) through the system, and walk around. Does each side have bass/mid/treble?
Assuming everything's working okay, it's time to dig into how things are set up. It might be as simple as a badly-set graphic EQ, or as complex as replacing drivers and reprogramming a DSP.
Chris
Muddy and peaky?
Please tell and show what speakers you are using, a couple pictures will clear things, otherwise answers are impossible.
Also show how/where are they installed and what are they pointed at.
It looks like you have a big midrange hole, or it was poorly equalized to "improve" sound (smiley EQ curve?)
Please tell and show what speakers you are using, a couple pictures will clear things, otherwise answers are impossible.
Also show how/where are they installed and what are they pointed at.
It looks like you have a big midrange hole, or it was poorly equalized to "improve" sound (smiley EQ curve?)
Take a look at and see if you can find used JBL PD 5322 boxes. Mix and match dispersions to point and shoot to the audience.
If there is one 2 conductor cable going to the loudspeaker, it must have a crossover. If there are multiple cables it is trivial to determine what they are for. Virtually all professional loudspeakers will actually survive a low level full range signal into any of their drivers. Some such as many EAW loudspeakers put bandwidth limiting filters in line with all of their drivers. So even if you full range, bi or Tri-amp them crossovers are in place. All in the same loudspeaker.
Having seen many more than one professional loudspeaker mis-wired woofy and tweety they tend to survive initial power up and testing.
The reason to just use your own amplifier is to determine what the signal processing is doing.
I agree, it's best to troubleshoot the systems you have. Maybe all you need is to replace some tweeter diaphragms, lean some dirty connections or replace a defective circuit breaker. Maybe there's CD horn EQ being used incorrectly. Anything is possible. Draw a block diagram of the system. Check all the knobs and button settings.
There are apps to use a smartphone or tablet to check speaker phase, pink noise generators, and real-time analyzers, if you don't have conventional test gear.
Building speakers is fun, but there's a learning curve, and I suspect you can get better deals on used gear. Lots of venues went out of business during COVID.
There are apps to use a smartphone or tablet to check speaker phase, pink noise generators, and real-time analyzers, if you don't have conventional test gear.
Building speakers is fun, but there's a learning curve, and I suspect you can get better deals on used gear. Lots of venues went out of business during COVID.
i'm going to reinforce the thinking that troubleshooting/fixing the existing systems is the way to go first, long before building speakers!
and i like the suggestion of pics (but i'm a freak for gear porn)
and forgive me this potential trespass but as you did say that in both the situations of "indoors" and "outdoors" you perceived the systems as lacking clarity correct?
if this where me i would be concerned that something is wrong with my hearing....
and going back to a portion of your original premise, any design that would satisfy your definition of clarity indoors would/should sound better outdoors by virtue of the removal of what the room's reverberant field introduces.
the converse, as a thought exercise, would be to have a design that is perceived as sounding good outdoors but lacking in clarity indoors, should we conclude that it's a fault of the speaker's design?
so as a preface to a solution in finding your design you/we would have to examine all manner of factors and criteria...sorry i know that doesn't really help but your question is really rather complex....and sound reinforcement is a long road from building home speakers...
if you got the build chops research and copy any Danley design you fancy...how far wrong can you go when you shoot for the stars!!
and i like the suggestion of pics (but i'm a freak for gear porn)
and forgive me this potential trespass but as you did say that in both the situations of "indoors" and "outdoors" you perceived the systems as lacking clarity correct?
if this where me i would be concerned that something is wrong with my hearing....
and going back to a portion of your original premise, any design that would satisfy your definition of clarity indoors would/should sound better outdoors by virtue of the removal of what the room's reverberant field introduces.
the converse, as a thought exercise, would be to have a design that is perceived as sounding good outdoors but lacking in clarity indoors, should we conclude that it's a fault of the speaker's design?
so as a preface to a solution in finding your design you/we would have to examine all manner of factors and criteria...sorry i know that doesn't really help but your question is really rather complex....and sound reinforcement is a long road from building home speakers...
if you got the build chops research and copy any Danley design you fancy...how far wrong can you go when you shoot for the stars!!