Hi guys!
I need your opinions for my next project.
What I have:
A 28 Sq. Meter living room
A class d pioneer LX58 home cinema amp
Morel solus speakers (the main speakers are 3way columns with 2x6.5 mid and midbass)
An 8inch active subwoofer
The problem:
I feel that I need smaller speakers. I really like the morels but most of the time I listen to my music at lower volumes and losing lots of detail, also I am watching movies mostly at night. Of course I've tried all the loudness etc. from the receiver but again, I feel I am losing the details.
What I have in mind:
I don't have enough experience to design my own speakers, so I have to build someone's project.
I feel that a 2way with a 5inch midbass will do the job.
I am looking at troels gravensen designs, especially at seas curv with seas drivers but also I am tempted at many sb acoustics projects but the majority are with sb17 or satori 6inch drivers.
A subwoofer is already installed so bass extension is not a problem.
My question:
Going from a 2x6.5 inch columns setup to a single 5inch/6inch will do the job when it comes to listening to lower volumes?
Do you have any suggestions on 5/6inch projects? I want to keep the budget low, so mostly seas prestige or sb acoustics.
I need your opinions for my next project.
What I have:
A 28 Sq. Meter living room
A class d pioneer LX58 home cinema amp
Morel solus speakers (the main speakers are 3way columns with 2x6.5 mid and midbass)
An 8inch active subwoofer
The problem:
I feel that I need smaller speakers. I really like the morels but most of the time I listen to my music at lower volumes and losing lots of detail, also I am watching movies mostly at night. Of course I've tried all the loudness etc. from the receiver but again, I feel I am losing the details.
What I have in mind:
I don't have enough experience to design my own speakers, so I have to build someone's project.
I feel that a 2way with a 5inch midbass will do the job.
I am looking at troels gravensen designs, especially at seas curv with seas drivers but also I am tempted at many sb acoustics projects but the majority are with sb17 or satori 6inch drivers.
A subwoofer is already installed so bass extension is not a problem.
My question:
Going from a 2x6.5 inch columns setup to a single 5inch/6inch will do the job when it comes to listening to lower volumes?
Do you have any suggestions on 5/6inch projects? I want to keep the budget low, so mostly seas prestige or sb acoustics.
It is unlikely that smaller/cheaper speakers are going to be more revealing at any volume. If your towers are ok for higher level listening then seem to lose detail when you turn them down, there are a number of things to consider...
First, how is the noise level in your room?
As you turn down your levels, a certain amount of the quieter bits are going to get lost in the background noise. So it might be worth your while to look into quieting the room itself ... Fans, Air Conditioners, Fish Tanks, Appliances, etc. can all hide some low level sounds.
Second, have you treated the room for echos, reflections etc?
It is entirely possible to get a room so dead that some softer sounds are lost to the treatments. In that case, finding and correcting the over-treatment might bring very pleasing results.
Lastly, you may be able to improve the speakers you have.
A lot of modern speakers have ridiculously complex and inefficient crossover networks in them. Sometimes (not always) it is possible to increase sensitivity and detail by replacing the crossover with a simpler one designed for more efficiency.
Of course... you could always consider headphones for night viewing...
1.Very quiet, no other noises at all!
2. Not much things that I can do to the living room. It is a typical living room, with not much to change and my wife wouldn't let me change anything to be honest
3. The crossover seems to be extremely simple. 2nd order for midbass and mid and first order for the Tweeter. I think it cannot be simpler than this
2. Not much things that I can do to the living room. It is a typical living room, with not much to change and my wife wouldn't let me change anything to be honest
3. The crossover seems to be extremely simple. 2nd order for midbass and mid and first order for the Tweeter. I think it cannot be simpler than this
A couple worth looking at may be the Jeff Bagby designs -
Continuum - uses a morel tweeter so a familiar sound plus Arum Cantos 5.25 poly woofer.
Continuum II Loudspeaker Kit - Meniscus Audio
Kairos - SB satori drivers, a step up in price but gets universal praise.
Kairos Full Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
If you feel the need for more bass in the future you can add the 10” box underneath.
Box
Something in the middle may be the new Traveller design by Jim Holtz
The Travelers Loudspeaker Kit - Meniscus Audio
Just a few thought to get you going.
Continuum - uses a morel tweeter so a familiar sound plus Arum Cantos 5.25 poly woofer.
Continuum II Loudspeaker Kit - Meniscus Audio
Kairos - SB satori drivers, a step up in price but gets universal praise.
Kairos Full Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio
If you feel the need for more bass in the future you can add the 10” box underneath.
Box
Something in the middle may be the new Traveller design by Jim Holtz
The Travelers Loudspeaker Kit - Meniscus Audio
Just a few thought to get you going.
Hi friend! Thanks for your recommendations! I live in Greece and to be honest I some of those drivers are not sold here. Sadly because continuum was exactly what I had in mind!.
Hi!
What came instantly to my mind was that maybe your problem isn't a matter of the size of the speakers but of efficiency. If your existing speakers lack detail in music when you listen to them at low volume, you obviously need a pair which delivers exactly that: detailed reproduction at low volume. If the speakers are small or big should be a part of this problem.
Maybe you could drop Troels a line and ask him which designs come to his mind when you describe what you need. Unfortunately you can't ask Jeff any more, which makes me very sad.
(I would aim at Troel's Faital 3-way classic, although I never heard them. They are quite efficient, so I expect them to be perfectly suited to play at low volumes, and if you feel like rocking or having a home cinema night, they will also deliver. Here at diyaudio there's a thread about some people building them.)
Cheers,
Matthias
What came instantly to my mind was that maybe your problem isn't a matter of the size of the speakers but of efficiency. If your existing speakers lack detail in music when you listen to them at low volume, you obviously need a pair which delivers exactly that: detailed reproduction at low volume. If the speakers are small or big should be a part of this problem.
Maybe you could drop Troels a line and ask him which designs come to his mind when you describe what you need. Unfortunately you can't ask Jeff any more, which makes me very sad.
(I would aim at Troel's Faital 3-way classic, although I never heard them. They are quite efficient, so I expect them to be perfectly suited to play at low volumes, and if you feel like rocking or having a home cinema night, they will also deliver. Here at diyaudio there's a thread about some people building them.)
Cheers,
Matthias
Two speakers that are known to sound good at low volumes are Quad electrostatics and Large Tannoy DCs.
For diy I think asking Troels is a good idea.
For diy I think asking Troels is a good idea.
What if it is just Fletcher-Munson (or Robinson-Dadson) at work ? I don't think that higher efficiency speakers are a solution.
Have you ever tried to improve "detail" at lower volumes by the use of tone controls ?
Regards
Charles
Have you ever tried to improve "detail" at lower volumes by the use of tone controls ?
Regards
Charles
This is my #1 bet.
Until you hit the limits, loudspeakers are pretty linear in terms of power in to SPL out. They don't suddenly "lose detail" as you turn the volume down.
Other possibilities are that you're operating right down in the "noise" of some digital equipment. ie, you're throwing away too many bits for high-quality reproduction. It doesn't seem likely, though.
Chris
I'm building a small sealed 2.5 way atm.
Sealed has many advantages over ported designs, sound quality wise- I'm only realising now that I always preferred sealed speakers..
If you have a sub, maybe sealed is the way to go
Sealed has many advantages over ported designs, sound quality wise- I'm only realising now that I always preferred sealed speakers..
If you have a sub, maybe sealed is the way to go
Thanks everyone for responding.
The amp has mic setup(mcacc, I've spent much time setting it up right, but it is very nice since I figured out how it works) and it is set for a flat frequency response. The sound is very nice, very clean, nice vocals, everything really nice but at normal listening volumes. When is night, I try to eq it, push some tremble and bass, enable the thx night mode, but some "beef" is missing.
To be honest, using 12inch drivers is not a solution. First of all I don't believe that a larger driver will do the job (even a more efficient one).
I swapped my 12 inch Dali sub for an 8inch and it is much better.
I believe a sealed 2way 5inch possibly is the best solution to my problem.
@bill poster Yes indeed. I also prefer sealed over ported.
The amp has mic setup(mcacc, I've spent much time setting it up right, but it is very nice since I figured out how it works) and it is set for a flat frequency response. The sound is very nice, very clean, nice vocals, everything really nice but at normal listening volumes. When is night, I try to eq it, push some tremble and bass, enable the thx night mode, but some "beef" is missing.
To be honest, using 12inch drivers is not a solution. First of all I don't believe that a larger driver will do the job (even a more efficient one).
I swapped my 12 inch Dali sub for an 8inch and it is much better.
I believe a sealed 2way 5inch possibly is the best solution to my problem.
@bill poster Yes indeed. I also prefer sealed over ported.
The best answer that I have seen so far to improving the quality of low level listening can be found in this thread: Considerations for good performance at low volume
In a nutshell, it's saying that at lower volumes, the mechanical resistance of the driver plays a more important role when the magnetic forces are much reduced due to the reduced current levels. So look for drivers with looser suspensions, so higher Qms and lower Rms. SB Acoustics drivers happen to be good candidates.
In a nutshell, it's saying that at lower volumes, the mechanical resistance of the driver plays a more important role when the magnetic forces are much reduced due to the reduced current levels. So look for drivers with looser suspensions, so higher Qms and lower Rms. SB Acoustics drivers happen to be good candidates.
Excellent ... my room is never completely silent. There is always some minimal noise from traffic, air circulation, etc.
There are "stealth" room treatments, some of them are very nice, but they would mean some redecorating...
That does sound good... it could be simpler, but probably at the expense of frequency response.
The others have offered some very interesting ideas.
In particular the idea that we hear differently at low levels is something to think about. If your system allows for multiple eq curves you could make one that's nice and flat for general listening and another for night time with the bass and treble boosted just a bit.
As a brief sidenote... our perception of loudness it skewed by experience and long term effects on the ear itself. If you've been listening at relatively high levels for long periods of time, it might take a while for you to adjust to lower levels... and a hearing test might be in order. The fable about the deaf audiophile is not a lie.
The second notion, that of mechanical inertia in the drivers is certainly a very real factor to be considered as well. It does take a certain amount of energy to get speakers moving a proper bit of air. Below a certain level you can actually end up with speakers with no moving parts.
I still don't think smaller speakers is your answer. I'm more inclined to suggest finding ways to make the existing speakers more efficient.
Anyway... good luck with all this. Hope you get it sorted.
Have you seen this design:
A Speaker Maker's Journey: The LM-1 Driver Locations
One of the advantages of the design is that you can run it sealed, secondly I guess the drivers should be reasonably easy to source locally.
Failing that idea, the little paper 5 inch Peerless SDS also works sealed. Its somewhat cheaper as well. Maybe 10-12 litre enclosure.
You could try a search for a SB Acousttics design using their 5"MFC driver, that could also work in 5-8 litres sealed.
If you use the amp sound processor and your sub, I can understand a small speaker integrating well in your room.
A Speaker Maker's Journey: The LM-1 Driver Locations
One of the advantages of the design is that you can run it sealed, secondly I guess the drivers should be reasonably easy to source locally.
Failing that idea, the little paper 5 inch Peerless SDS also works sealed. Its somewhat cheaper as well. Maybe 10-12 litre enclosure.
You could try a search for a SB Acousttics design using their 5"MFC driver, that could also work in 5-8 litres sealed.
If you use the amp sound processor and your sub, I can understand a small speaker integrating well in your room.
And then you ask what sounds best at low volumes on various hifi forums, and probably the most common answer given is Tannoy DC. Tannoy Monitor Thieli & Small.
Its the ear that loses detail as volume goes down at top and bottom frequencies. Some amps used to have a "loudness" button on them to compensate for that.
I have not personally done any empirical double blind tests with different drivers to confirm or dismiss what the thread I linked to above is suggesting, but to be clear, it is saying that with some drivers turning down the volume does indeed result in a loss of detail.
And that it doesn't have to do with equal loudness curves either. If it did, then the mids that we are most sensitive to and which are not boosted by a loudness button would not suffer from any loss of detail as well. But they do. Or to put it another way, you can eq to correct for psychoacoustic effects but the driver will still exhibit a loss of detail at the reduced listening volume. It only comes alive when you provide it with larger amounts of current to produce higher SPL levels.
For various reasons, I do all my listening now at very low SPL levels. Currently what I'm listening to is a little 3.25" Wavecore: Qms=5.7, Rms=.43. The results are quite acceptable. But next up in the queue is to change up from a moving coil driver completely and try a planar mid and planar or ribbon tweeter. We shall see......
And that it doesn't have to do with equal loudness curves either. If it did, then the mids that we are most sensitive to and which are not boosted by a loudness button would not suffer from any loss of detail as well. But they do. Or to put it another way, you can eq to correct for psychoacoustic effects but the driver will still exhibit a loss of detail at the reduced listening volume. It only comes alive when you provide it with larger amounts of current to produce higher SPL levels.
For various reasons, I do all my listening now at very low SPL levels. Currently what I'm listening to is a little 3.25" Wavecore: Qms=5.7, Rms=.43. The results are quite acceptable. But next up in the queue is to change up from a moving coil driver completely and try a planar mid and planar or ribbon tweeter. We shall see......
@jReave thanks for the topic! Very informative!
@Douglas Blake thanks!
@raymondj interesting project indeed!
@fatmarley thanks! Tannoy dcs now are in my wishlist!
@nigelwright7557 tried loudness, pushes bass and treble, but is not exactly good sounding
@Douglas Blake thanks!
@raymondj interesting project indeed!
@fatmarley thanks! Tannoy dcs now are in my wishlist!
@nigelwright7557 tried loudness, pushes bass and treble, but is not exactly good sounding