Low tones have had a rocky path being integrated into our music. Being born from dance, often musicians were stymied as to where within their creations such tones #belonged#.
One such early example was one of Madonnas early# hits #.......you could literally hear the sub-harmonic synthethizer turn off & on..........still searching for a smooth integration.
Today we have the likes of U2s # Its a beautiful Day #..........three quarters the way thru the track, a deep bass track comes in.....some systems cant reproduce it....& when they do, it is thin & weak.....a job for the sub-woofer.
Music can only benefit from these deep tones.....musicians can either #abuse# it or seemlessly integrate it...........bringing a little more happiness to the listening experience.
________________________________________________________Rick.........
One such early example was one of Madonnas early# hits #.......you could literally hear the sub-harmonic synthethizer turn off & on..........still searching for a smooth integration.
Today we have the likes of U2s # Its a beautiful Day #..........three quarters the way thru the track, a deep bass track comes in.....some systems cant reproduce it....& when they do, it is thin & weak.....a job for the sub-woofer.
Music can only benefit from these deep tones.....musicians can either #abuse# it or seemlessly integrate it...........bringing a little more happiness to the listening experience.
________________________________________________________Rick.........
You might want to reread the first post. Please stop posting off-topic comments.
and..what
I read he says his bass is already ok, and his expereince with subs have been less good
well, that too
that said, 'room problems' can be caused by wrong or poor speaker design
a sub, or multiple subs may not be the cure of that...it depends
heck, I alrady said that once before
not that simple at all
you can ask a moderator to clean out our little non topic 'conversation' if you like
would be OK with me
My question is who moves around the room while listening to music. I don't know anyone who does that, but I do know a lot of people who sit down and listen to music while enjoying a beverage. They sit in a single position(what is best for imaging etc.), and that is where their system is optimized for.
I have heard this track, and shutting things on and off during a mixing session is not something that is done. The usual thing is to pull something in and out of the mix for some visceral effect, not because we can't integrate it in the mix. Remember, the mixer has ultimate control on integration. They control the slider.
Then of course distributed bass is the best solution
My point was based on walking around a room while listening(a non common practice), not that distributed bass is not the best solution for multiple listeners.IMO the difficulty in providing an answer to the OP is based at least in part on the fact that the term "sub-woofer" applies to basically two different types of speaker systems.
The first type can be understood by taking the term "sub-woofer" literally. That is, its a speaker system intended to reproduce sound in the range below the cut-off that a woofer-type of speaker usually has, around 40-60 Hz. Most acoustic musical instruments don't produce a fundamental below 40 Hz. In the case of the few acoustic instruments that can produce a fundamental below 40 Hz, the fundamental is much weaker than the harmonics. On the other hand, synthesizers and other electronic musical instruments can generate tones with the fundamental below 40 Hz of significant amplitude. Whether a sub-woofer of this type is a worthwhile addition depends on how often you choose to listen to music that includes electronic sound-generating instruments producing the very low tones.
A second type of sub-woofer has a pass-band that is several octaves wide and might or might not have a lower cut-off frequency below 40 Hz. Often this type of sub-woofer reproduces the bass range of both stereo channels. With this type of sub-woofer one benefit can be an overall much smaller speaker system w.r.t. the bass cut-off frequency of the system. As in the contrast between two-way and three-way systems, it can be argued that the sub-woofer/ satellite system may result in less distortion at a certain level of reproduction because f3 of the satellites is higher than that of left and right channel speaker systems of a traditional stereo system lacking a sub-woofer.
-Pete
The first type can be understood by taking the term "sub-woofer" literally. That is, its a speaker system intended to reproduce sound in the range below the cut-off that a woofer-type of speaker usually has, around 40-60 Hz. Most acoustic musical instruments don't produce a fundamental below 40 Hz. In the case of the few acoustic instruments that can produce a fundamental below 40 Hz, the fundamental is much weaker than the harmonics. On the other hand, synthesizers and other electronic musical instruments can generate tones with the fundamental below 40 Hz of significant amplitude. Whether a sub-woofer of this type is a worthwhile addition depends on how often you choose to listen to music that includes electronic sound-generating instruments producing the very low tones.
A second type of sub-woofer has a pass-band that is several octaves wide and might or might not have a lower cut-off frequency below 40 Hz. Often this type of sub-woofer reproduces the bass range of both stereo channels. With this type of sub-woofer one benefit can be an overall much smaller speaker system w.r.t. the bass cut-off frequency of the system. As in the contrast between two-way and three-way systems, it can be argued that the sub-woofer/ satellite system may result in less distortion at a certain level of reproduction because f3 of the satellites is higher than that of left and right channel speaker systems of a traditional stereo system lacking a sub-woofer.
-Pete
Totaly AGREE. What is subwoofer? Last hope to say poor designed FRONT. Than, you are become more familiar with pulse respond and WOW.. you are already involved in digital line delay design to synchronize all your components. What a life.
You're joking, right? This is the frequency response at my listening position:
This can't be done with two front speakers within an acoustically small room.
That's too cryptic for me.
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seriously, you need to get out more.
(markus, maybe he means it can be more complex than just plonking a pair of mains in your room?)
No-one, in the strictest definition of the term, NEEDS a sub. Yes that much is correct.
Same as it could be argued you don't NEED a tweeter, or more accurately the top octave. Plenty of single driver guys can attest to that. (they'd prob agree with you about the sub too!)
The best place for the mains does not necessarily mean the best place for the subs, and vice versa.
In any case, I have found the more subs or bass sources gives you that missing something. I am not only talking about the notes, it is the entire ambience of the thing. I spose a few of you use mics and say REW?
Go outside, and look at a RTA. You will be shocked at how much LF energy there is all around us. It is part of what we experience, even if not analytically aware of it.
Same deal in music. I don't care if it is a concert of solo violin. The crowd will provide the low noise, and it is essential to get that at home. Without it you will not get the 'you are there' thing. It ain't the violin mind, but the ambience.
I have found the size of the soundstage or the envelopment is greatly enhanced by subs. They just go hand in hand, every time you improve the bass the envelopment goes up. It is enveloping, it helps the rest of the music expand into the larger bass region.
It is almost that the bass is a carrier wave for the rest of the spectrum. "Grow the bass'' and magically, even tho you have not touched it, the rest of the response goes along for the ride with it.
I am not talking spl, just to make sure. It may extend deeper, but even if not the FR should 'be the same', is not louder in the bass than before. Unless you were actually missing bass before. Anyway, hope you get the meaning.
I made speakers by myself. Used Dynaudio kit. Well designed vented box gives me so much bass that my neighbours are watching all my movies with me. And I know that #proper bass# which everybody likes and likes to talk about it comes from good twitter and mid range. So, that is the question about "what do you mean by saying DO I NEED MORE BASS?" It this more mess so you can a play a bit with your neighbours or it is something more articulated? How about the room? How about is to start with your walls and make it more bass absorbing? So at the and of the day you will not have 100 reflections that kill you bass? Any way I do agree that somewhere you can see nice installation with woofers but I bet it was hard to set it up.
P.S I wish I didnt make any comment, I did know that you are so sensitive about woofers =)
P.S I wish I didnt make any comment, I did know that you are so sensitive about woofers =)
thats what they said/stated in the first subwoofer test I ever read
probably a Sunfire, which I think was the first real sub to hit the market
it was also claimed that it sounded best when the sub wasn't heard at all
but only noticed when removed
back then it was commonly know to work best when not crossed any higher than 50hz
was it Infinity who tried to change that by presenting a complete setup with mono sub and two small 2way satelite speakers ?
anyway, some things seems to have changed, and some haven't
and btw, if a measurement would be all it takes to convince everyone that what they hear sounds just the way it should sound, then it would probably be much easier to produce good hifi, and convince everyone that it is good
but i'm not convinced good sound really works that way
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It's not about people being "so sensitive about woofers" it's about subjective opinions and objective facts. You provide just the former.
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was that a typo tinitus? or does 'ups' mean something I don't know?
Whether or not it annoys the neighbours is a completely different question to 'do subs enhance the music?' (dang, forget the title of the thread now)
Heck, some can't do it because it annoys the wife.
Completely different subject.
Whether or not it annoys the neighbours is a completely different question to 'do subs enhance the music?' (dang, forget the title of the thread now)
Heck, some can't do it because it annoys the wife.
Completely different subject.
Ok, ok.
But any way, from the beginning there was a question:
Subwoofers: are they really necessary for home audio?
So, my point of view is that it is not necessary as it only makes a mess in your sound scene,hard to set up and originally it was the way to compensate poor front. I hope it is quite objective =) But, I do believe that subwoofers should be used in car installations cause girlz like it!
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