Probably a common problem here. I started off planning a mini sub (6.5 inch tangband) to provide a touch of low-end for my modest gainclone/mission 780 stereo setup.
I then found it was hard to get my chosen driver in europe (w6-2010) and started looking at alternatives. I finallt settled on an 8 inch dayton ultimax in a slot ported enclosure.. Then i realised the 10 inch version works even better in the same enclosure...
Ive gone from a tiny 100w sub to a 500w 10 incher.
However i expect that is far too much for my mains. (should i now upgrade those too!?)
Ive also got the issue that two subs is apparently better than one.
So, what size sub would be sensible in my case? I cant afford two 10 inchers, bit two 6.5 inchers likely wouldn't go as low as one 10 incher..
With my setup, obviously spl requirement isnt very high, and i need small size (like 20 litres small) and low extension.
Ive got some pretty good winisd solutions, its just they keep getting bigger and bigger.. When to stop?
I then found it was hard to get my chosen driver in europe (w6-2010) and started looking at alternatives. I finallt settled on an 8 inch dayton ultimax in a slot ported enclosure.. Then i realised the 10 inch version works even better in the same enclosure...
Ive gone from a tiny 100w sub to a 500w 10 incher.
However i expect that is far too much for my mains. (should i now upgrade those too!?)
Ive also got the issue that two subs is apparently better than one.
So, what size sub would be sensible in my case? I cant afford two 10 inchers, bit two 6.5 inchers likely wouldn't go as low as one 10 incher..
With my setup, obviously spl requirement isnt very high, and i need small size (like 20 litres small) and low extension.
Ive got some pretty good winisd solutions, its just they keep getting bigger and bigger.. When to stop?
When you hear bass that sounds clean, clear and loud down to very low frequencies, it can be addictive. It can also require large boxes to reproduce.
I've found that my bass needs for my HT setup that uses Mission 751s as front speakers is completely filled with a 10" driver with 18mm Xmax ... in a 2.5 cu.ft. box 🙂
I've found that my bass needs for my HT setup that uses Mission 751s as front speakers is completely filled with a 10" driver with 18mm Xmax ... in a 2.5 cu.ft. box 🙂
Compact, moderate-low SPL, clean tight bass with plenty of extension (say a solid 20-35hz)
Budget aside (don't know about UK market) here is my choices in order of preference:
1. 10w1v3 (sealed 16 liters)
10W1v3-4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - W1v3 - JL Audio
2. 10wxv2 (sealed 18 liters)
10WXv2-4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - WXv2 - JL Audio
3. TIW 250 XS (sealed 30 liters)
TIW 250 XS - 8 Ohm
4. 8w1v3 (sealed 10 liters)
8W1v3-4 - Car Audio - Subwoofer Drivers - W1v3 - JL Audio
The latest w1 series (third gen) from JL audio is jaw-dropping. So much output, so much quality and so little space requirement. Magical. WX series is the most cost-effective subwoofer solution i know of.
Non-JL subwoofers that are worth mentioning are the Visaton awesome TIW250XS, pricey but excellent in any HiFi set-up. Also, Dayton Ultimax are great but maybe more for home theater projects that requires maximum SPL for the lowest money spent.
Sweet spot is the nominal 10 incher.
With that, usually comes +/- 30hz Fs, decent Xmax and at least 300 cm³ of air displacement. And that is what you really need: air displacement.
Unless you live in a wine barrel, real subwoofer (effortless) performance will require a minimum of air displacement in a given room size. If not, the driver will struggle -even at moderate volume- and you'll most likely hear mechanical and/or distortion noises.
Also, the ''fun'' of the subwoofer mainly concerns the 25-40hz region. That is where the feeling of ''power'' and pressurisation comes from. The one that makes the sound ''big''. And that requires essentially a pistonic device that moves air... 🙂
Yeah, the room. Damn my room. Its just too big. Ive got these weeny bookshelf speakers on a 40wpc amp in a room in an old italian villa. 8m x 5m, with a 5.5m high barrel vaulted cieling.
My beloved missions that have sounded great (to me) in every room ive used them in for the last 20 odd years, are completely lost here. The sound is muddled and lacking oomph.
Hence the sub. Im also gonna try some room correction /equalisation, since in a rented property, with an unsympathetic girlfriend and little cash, acoustic treatments and/or bigger speakers are not on the list.
I guess i shouldnt shy away from the 10 inchers. If the boxes are weeny and i paint them white, i might get away with two.. Three would be a hard sell, and wires across the floor aint hapoening!
My beloved missions that have sounded great (to me) in every room ive used them in for the last 20 odd years, are completely lost here. The sound is muddled and lacking oomph.
Hence the sub. Im also gonna try some room correction /equalisation, since in a rented property, with an unsympathetic girlfriend and little cash, acoustic treatments and/or bigger speakers are not on the list.
I guess i shouldnt shy away from the 10 inchers. If the boxes are weeny and i paint them white, i might get away with two.. Three would be a hard sell, and wires across the floor aint hapoening!
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Downfiring 10 inchers, neo-bohemian white enclosures with a plant on them. Don't tell her, it's between us.
😀
Downfiring subwoofers.
For nearly half a century, men has hidden his low frequencies to his wife.
😛
- Honey, what's that funny noise ?
'' dunno, babe. Probably a truck passing by. Or the wind. Or the dog. Have you watered the plant yet? Oh don't bother i'll do it. Love you. ''
For nearly half a century, men has hidden his low frequencies to his wife.
😛
- Honey, what's that funny noise ?
'' dunno, babe. Probably a truck passing by. Or the wind. Or the dog. Have you watered the plant yet? Oh don't bother i'll do it. Love you. ''
I've had a very similar room, in which I've used a W6-1139 in one cubic feet ported enclosure tuned to 30 Hz. With a 100 - 250 W amplifier that was enough 99% of the time. For that 1% I would settle with a single 12" in a enclosure of 50 - 150 litre external (or more) and the same power.
Thanks for the help guys.
JonBocani, do you have any decent reviews or discussions regarding the jl audio drivers? Ive been unable to find much talk on them online, beyond a couple of "they slam in my trunk" Internet reviews. Ill try them in winisd later on.
Also, im wondering, given the choice, 1x 10 inch sub (the first in your list for example) or two of the 8 inchers? Two obviously allows more even coverage...
JonBocani, do you have any decent reviews or discussions regarding the jl audio drivers? Ive been unable to find much talk on them online, beyond a couple of "they slam in my trunk" Internet reviews. Ill try them in winisd later on.
Also, im wondering, given the choice, 1x 10 inch sub (the first in your list for example) or two of the 8 inchers? Two obviously allows more even coverage...
Those box size recommendations from JL are for car audio duty, where better power handling and smaller boxes are preferred, and where cabin gain compensates for lower output at low frequencies. The recommended 17.7 sealed box size for 10WXv2 for example results in a sealed alignment with an F3 of 48 Hz and a Qtc of 0.86, both of which are a little high for home audio duty.
OTOH, if you were to take the t/s parameters of those JL Audio drivers and use them as if you were designing for home audio duty, you might end up with something that works. For example, that same JL Audio 10-incher might work well as a home audio subwoofer in a 2 cu.ft. box tuned to 26 Hz...
How do you guys like Dayton Reference subs compared to JL's?
And speaking of car subs, the Alpine SWS seems to be pretty well regarded.
I'm kinda in the same boat, only I have a 15" pro woofer that just doesn't dig deep enough and was thinking about a higher excursion 15" unit sealed.
Were space constraints the primary reason for the JL recommendation or quality or both? I know JL's are good speakers, a friend has one in his truck and it sounds really nice?
Thx, sorry I don't want highjack the thread, hoping this will help us both.
And speaking of car subs, the Alpine SWS seems to be pretty well regarded.
I'm kinda in the same boat, only I have a 15" pro woofer that just doesn't dig deep enough and was thinking about a higher excursion 15" unit sealed.
Were space constraints the primary reason for the JL recommendation or quality or both? I know JL's are good speakers, a friend has one in his truck and it sounds really nice?
Thx, sorry I don't want highjack the thread, hoping this will help us both.
ok so im trying to simulate the Jl audio subs in winisd, specifically the 8w1v3 but i cannot find the complete T/S parameters. missing the Mms, and the LE. Without those, i cannot test them.
ok so ive discovered the dayton rss210HO 8 inch reference sub.
in a 19 litre enclosure with a slot port, it will play with an f3 of 29 hz (only 6db down at 25 🙂
using a highpass filter at 22 hz, i can load it up to 270 watts before running out of xmax..
pretty decent 107 db down to circa 30 hz and still 100db at 25 hz.
it seems to have loads of good reviews.
ive not seen another driver that seems so happy in a small ported enclosure.
(my own "snailshell" design with slot port wrapped around cylidrical cabinet with driver on flat end, probably downfiring.)
Best thing is its available in Europe for 130 euros and for that price i could consider 2.
i could go small sealed instead but then lose that nice low f3
in a 19 litre enclosure with a slot port, it will play with an f3 of 29 hz (only 6db down at 25 🙂
using a highpass filter at 22 hz, i can load it up to 270 watts before running out of xmax..
pretty decent 107 db down to circa 30 hz and still 100db at 25 hz.
it seems to have loads of good reviews.
ive not seen another driver that seems so happy in a small ported enclosure.
(my own "snailshell" design with slot port wrapped around cylidrical cabinet with driver on flat end, probably downfiring.)
Best thing is its available in Europe for 130 euros and for that price i could consider 2.
i could go small sealed instead but then lose that nice low f3
been reading about group delay, and that a low group delay will sound "tighter"
in my ported design, group delay peaks at 47 ms down at 21 hz.. at 30 hz its 33mz, and at 50hz its 10ms...
do those values suggest a nice sounding sub or a sloppy mess?.. ive seen contradictory opinions.
- ahh and this is with a highpass filter on in winisd
without the filter, delay peaks at 22ms.
of course filter is pretty essential.
in my ported design, group delay peaks at 47 ms down at 21 hz.. at 30 hz its 33mz, and at 50hz its 10ms...
do those values suggest a nice sounding sub or a sloppy mess?.. ive seen contradictory opinions.
- ahh and this is with a highpass filter on in winisd
without the filter, delay peaks at 22ms.
of course filter is pretty essential.
Yep. You are pretty far gone. Considered 21's? Ive also heard that rotary subwoofers are quite impressive..
99% of times, it's enough for a 200 W amplifier or even slightly lower in power to do the job in this circumstance IMHO.
Doesnt that depend entirely on the subwoofer design, location, sensitivity and room shape?
I think im going to pull the trigger on a pair of those dayton reference 8's. Simulated results seem very nice. They have quite low sensitivity so ill need a chunky amp, but thats not a major problem.
high output Class d amps and switchmode psu's cost very little these days.
There may be better options in the jl audio or othe car subwoofer ranges, but without complete parameters i cant even simulate them.
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