Thanks, thanks. Understood, all.
Just now upgraded another machine (a win7 os) to the new Fb2k version 1.3.4. and noticed something consequential to this whole project / plan while I was there.
Foobar2k does not run without 'extras' or manipulation of some kind (taboo to my plan, here, any of that secondary-alternate business of bending things to make them sort-of work in places they weren't meant for)--- in Linux. Foobar was written to run in Windows.
It would take a lot to disengage me from Foobar, as I've been using it for maybe five years and keeping the flame of someday doing this project alive by squirelling away music and upgrades all that time. It's the "known" element in an equation where everything else is x or y. So everything proceeds from the existing 120 music cds that are stored in Wav via Foobar. I'll have to make operating systems work toward that.
Foobar works in Windows, alone, if you want to run it clear of complication. So windows it will have to be.
And safe to assume, I'll need to be meeting certain minimum standards in OS terms as time goes by, just to operate fb2k, just to network with my other more-updated machines, just to have something that isn't hobbled at every turn. Also to access the standard 'within-foobar' things like the FreeID thing for tagging, the AccurateRip thing (what are these called ? Apps? IntraApps ?) which is the Foobar version of Exact Audio Copy. Or access whatever security will have me on that OS, just to have for that momentary contact with the net for the above kinds of things.
Anyway I'm not interested in running "Foobar - Under" or having a secondary OS or virtual-something machine. All that goes against the lean-mean concept here of one machine running one musicplayer program with all else stripped out of the works.
So back to purchasing a retail copy of WXP startup discs to begin, and going from there. Not a big expenditure, although not as cool or worldwide off-grid as Linux would have been.
As it happens, looking at another part of the architecture here, ruling out Linux and centering on a definite Windows OS allows a LOT more usb dacs into the equation. Understandably, Linux usb dacs are a smaller group than Windows ones.
So now, another question along these lines. <I> Can I lift a 75Ω Spdif output or an Aes-Ebu 11oΩ output off of my existing motherboard ? </I> That keeps suggesting itself to me for some reason. (Even if the eventual and ultimate situation is an async usb dac, there are a lot of diy sort of dacs out there, some tubed ones, too-- that only need spdif/coax or bnc, or AesEbu on Xlr to do their thing. ) I know properly done Usb/Async has vanishingly low jitter, but just want to know about these older-school outputs. Can anyone say ?
Just now upgraded another machine (a win7 os) to the new Fb2k version 1.3.4. and noticed something consequential to this whole project / plan while I was there.
Foobar2k does not run without 'extras' or manipulation of some kind (taboo to my plan, here, any of that secondary-alternate business of bending things to make them sort-of work in places they weren't meant for)--- in Linux. Foobar was written to run in Windows.
It would take a lot to disengage me from Foobar, as I've been using it for maybe five years and keeping the flame of someday doing this project alive by squirelling away music and upgrades all that time. It's the "known" element in an equation where everything else is x or y. So everything proceeds from the existing 120 music cds that are stored in Wav via Foobar. I'll have to make operating systems work toward that.
Foobar works in Windows, alone, if you want to run it clear of complication. So windows it will have to be.
And safe to assume, I'll need to be meeting certain minimum standards in OS terms as time goes by, just to operate fb2k, just to network with my other more-updated machines, just to have something that isn't hobbled at every turn. Also to access the standard 'within-foobar' things like the FreeID thing for tagging, the AccurateRip thing (what are these called ? Apps? IntraApps ?) which is the Foobar version of Exact Audio Copy. Or access whatever security will have me on that OS, just to have for that momentary contact with the net for the above kinds of things.
Anyway I'm not interested in running "Foobar - Under" or having a secondary OS or virtual-something machine. All that goes against the lean-mean concept here of one machine running one musicplayer program with all else stripped out of the works.
So back to purchasing a retail copy of WXP startup discs to begin, and going from there. Not a big expenditure, although not as cool or worldwide off-grid as Linux would have been.
As it happens, looking at another part of the architecture here, ruling out Linux and centering on a definite Windows OS allows a LOT more usb dacs into the equation. Understandably, Linux usb dacs are a smaller group than Windows ones.
So now, another question along these lines. <I> Can I lift a 75Ω Spdif output or an Aes-Ebu 11oΩ output off of my existing motherboard ? </I> That keeps suggesting itself to me for some reason. (Even if the eventual and ultimate situation is an async usb dac, there are a lot of diy sort of dacs out there, some tubed ones, too-- that only need spdif/coax or bnc, or AesEbu on Xlr to do their thing. ) I know properly done Usb/Async has vanishingly low jitter, but just want to know about these older-school outputs. Can anyone say ?
I f you are firmly committed to foobar, then windows is the only environment that makes sense, despite all the other downsides. But keeping your music collection tied to one piece of software is something I would advice very strongly against. You are basically just spending a lot of effort in making it harder to ever move to any other hardware, OS or architecture. What if you at some point want to listen to your music on a portable device?
IMHO, it's highly unlikely that you Dell MB will have a SPDIF type signal running around on it. You would need to get a USB to SPDIF card, but at that point you can also get a USB DAC.
BTW, I tried to make a fanless PC, but my chipset would overheat without some airflow. So I started using a Scythe Shuriken heatsink. The heatsink has the only fan in my PC, and when it's on you can only hear it maybe a foot away from the PC, and that's with the PC cover off.
Randy
@randy, thanks, guess that shows how really little I know about what may be inside cpu. Answer, very little. Suppose that USB --like everyone else does-- is sounding more and more likely. Or upscale sound card w/spdif out, I guess; maybe something from the pro-sound world. Will go have a look at both.
@julf, as to locking in to a player software, well, I'd still be able to export my basic Wav files elsewhere, wouldn't I ? They could still be sent to a commercial server, I'd think? Or another computer that runs, I don't know, anything from WinMedia to jRiver or something ?
Not quite sure what locks it in --even if I'm keeping this project as minimal/isolated as I'm trying for, I'd still think there's an 'escape hatch' to move the files elsewhere. I'm not apt to want wav files on a phone or pod mobile platform, I'm guessing. This whole project is a combination of 'what was still salvageable' from other worlds, both hardware and files both. It wouldn't kill me even to lose these particular files, though I'd rather not. The real music library here is on shelves, solid & three-dimensional.
To be honest, getting back to a Windows Os, no matter how antiquated, is a kind of a relief in that it's familiar ground. And with Fb2k also being familiar ground, then the only variables are in setup, and what kinds of dac look most feasible (as above, spdif or usb or both). Which, overall --happy emoticon here--- is starting to sound do-able.
I'll post back here when I have some further update on this. Looks v. much like the concept of Dac is back-specifying how this will work out. Thanks for the info so far.
@julf, as to locking in to a player software, well, I'd still be able to export my basic Wav files elsewhere, wouldn't I ? They could still be sent to a commercial server, I'd think? Or another computer that runs, I don't know, anything from WinMedia to jRiver or something ?
Not quite sure what locks it in --even if I'm keeping this project as minimal/isolated as I'm trying for, I'd still think there's an 'escape hatch' to move the files elsewhere. I'm not apt to want wav files on a phone or pod mobile platform, I'm guessing. This whole project is a combination of 'what was still salvageable' from other worlds, both hardware and files both. It wouldn't kill me even to lose these particular files, though I'd rather not. The real music library here is on shelves, solid & three-dimensional.
To be honest, getting back to a Windows Os, no matter how antiquated, is a kind of a relief in that it's familiar ground. And with Fb2k also being familiar ground, then the only variables are in setup, and what kinds of dac look most feasible (as above, spdif or usb or both). Which, overall --happy emoticon here--- is starting to sound do-able.
I'll post back here when I have some further update on this. Looks v. much like the concept of Dac is back-specifying how this will work out. Thanks for the info so far.
I may be a day late, but I'd like to add a vote for Ubuntu Linux and MPD. I've been using it on my old Pentium III laptop, and using it as a DSP as well. Plenty of power for that, and sounds very, very good.
It's my first real experience with Linux, and getting it running was actually quite easy.
It's my first real experience with Linux, and getting it running was actually quite easy.
Thanks for that, but it seems that Foobar and Windows are sort of inseparably monogamous. Would love to try the Linux/Ubuntu, maybe in a future iteration or an alternate.
As is typical of things like this, now that I'm discussing my little stripped-music-server with friends, several more similar-era unwanted cpu's have surfaced as possible donors or candidates for rehabilitation. (The theory I'm going with here, though, is to get ONE going.)
Since I'm a total newbie on this, I'm taking it that DSP means you do Eq or room-correction or something in the digi domain with your system ? Is that right ? And an MPD-- is a music-player app that equates with the Foobar I use? Just curious. Thanks.
I used to be really into the idea of all this stuff, but it just happened without any effort.
The TV runs 2 veteran Wharfedale speakers using a T-Amp running from the headphone out and I already had a terabyte NAS with all the CDs on it.
I got a 7in tablet along the way, with a Bluetooth remote keyboard and HDMI out, so I connect all this stuff together and I can see the tablet displayed on the TV, work it with the handheld keyboard and pull music and video off the NAS wirelessly.
And I didn't have to use the command line once. And the tablet's OS gets updated regularly.
The TV runs 2 veteran Wharfedale speakers using a T-Amp running from the headphone out and I already had a terabyte NAS with all the CDs on it.
I got a 7in tablet along the way, with a Bluetooth remote keyboard and HDMI out, so I connect all this stuff together and I can see the tablet displayed on the TV, work it with the handheld keyboard and pull music and video off the NAS wirelessly.
And I didn't have to use the command line once. And the tablet's OS gets updated regularly.
MPD is the "music player daemon". It's a full player, controlled by any of several available interfaces you can run on the server, on another system, on a tablet or phone.
DSP means I'm using it as a crossover feeding two amps for good control over my subwoofers and for eq. I have about 300 gigs worth of music files including wav, flac, mp3, etc. MPD allows you to play by cut or whole album as well as create playlists.
Yes, you can set Ubuntu (or pretty much any Linux) up to share disk with Windows or other systems, or to access such. My music is mounted on a remote system upstairs.
DSP means I'm using it as a crossover feeding two amps for good control over my subwoofers and for eq. I have about 300 gigs worth of music files including wav, flac, mp3, etc. MPD allows you to play by cut or whole album as well as create playlists.
Yes, you can set Ubuntu (or pretty much any Linux) up to share disk with Windows or other systems, or to access such. My music is mounted on a remote system upstairs.
Got it. But you'd need all sources being digital for that, I guess. (ie something like an analog FM feed, or openreel tape, or phono would have to be A/D'd to conform to such a system).
I'm just going to have to close ears to what tricky business you can manage in the Linux universe. For now & for this machine it'll have to be windows for foobar; stripping-down and streamlining necessarily eliminates doubling or virtual-machining or other oblique strategies. At least to my understanding. Also, and more honestly primarily, my completely pedestrian newbie grasp of these things leads toward simplify, simplify. No matter how intriguing the Linux practitioners' solutions may be.
Thanks for info.
The hard work is not the raw ripping, and the valuable stuff isn't the raw WAV content. The place where you will be spending time and effort (and where the payback of a digital library comes in) is the tagging metadata. It is really worthwhile to spend the time to get it right, and once you have started down that path, you don't want to lose all that effort. If you have the information in a standardized format (for example as part of FLAC files), it will transfer to other formats that can accommodate metadata in a standard form (mp3, AIFF etc.).
Have you had a look at The Well-Tempered Computer?
See your point, Julf.
(Guess my feeble explanation is I've been treating computer audio as a kind of Orphans care home, where cd-ripped files live on after I would presumably have lost them before having this resource. All category of orphan--- the cd's I couldn't bring when I moved house cross-country, cds that friends lent or recommended to me for a listen, cds from realworld libraries, various ep or demo or partials, bits of box sets, etc not fitting in my main physical-cd library-- all ending ripped in this little orphanage.)
I had been seeing my expanding cd-file orphanage as just another offshoot of the main music shelves, like maybe 12" club mix records or something. Another stack of v good stuff, but not the main.
Get your point about the metadata. Beyond artist/title, this is something I've left blank in five+ yrs of Foobar2k. This, presumably, would let me say, okay, let's assemble a playlist of Duke Ellington, but only from tracks where Ben Webster is on sax. Or all Brian Eno, but only instrumental tracks. That kind of thing.
Almost ridiculous to use computer audio and *not* use that capability. But I guess it's either all or nothing... To do those kinds of intriguing playlists, you can't have your central two-dozen Ellington titles on physical Lp and another substantial group on physical Cd. The search would only produce what resides in the orphan's home. There might be NO Ben-Webster-On-Sax in the orphanage while there are forty lurking in the physical library.
Hrrmph, this computer audio thing is awfully authoritarian isn't it. It wants everything digitized, filed and tagged in order to play along completely.
(Guess my feeble explanation is I've been treating computer audio as a kind of Orphans care home, where cd-ripped files live on after I would presumably have lost them before having this resource. All category of orphan--- the cd's I couldn't bring when I moved house cross-country, cds that friends lent or recommended to me for a listen, cds from realworld libraries, various ep or demo or partials, bits of box sets, etc not fitting in my main physical-cd library-- all ending ripped in this little orphanage.)
I had been seeing my expanding cd-file orphanage as just another offshoot of the main music shelves, like maybe 12" club mix records or something. Another stack of v good stuff, but not the main.
Get your point about the metadata. Beyond artist/title, this is something I've left blank in five+ yrs of Foobar2k. This, presumably, would let me say, okay, let's assemble a playlist of Duke Ellington, but only from tracks where Ben Webster is on sax. Or all Brian Eno, but only instrumental tracks. That kind of thing.
Almost ridiculous to use computer audio and *not* use that capability. But I guess it's either all or nothing... To do those kinds of intriguing playlists, you can't have your central two-dozen Ellington titles on physical Lp and another substantial group on physical Cd. The search would only produce what resides in the orphan's home. There might be NO Ben-Webster-On-Sax in the orphanage while there are forty lurking in the physical library.
Hrrmph, this computer audio thing is awfully authoritarian isn't it. It wants everything digitized, filed and tagged in order to play along completely.
I see - I have to admit it is an usage case I hadn't really considered, as I first transferred my CDs to a server more than 15 years ago (when mp3 was the only option - so I had to re-rip them once disks got big enough for lossless), and haven't looked back. For me, if it isn't on the computer, it isn't playable.
Fortunately things like MusicBrainz is making it easer to get metadata completed.
Yes, and stuff like all Brian Eno tracks with more than 70 beats per minute that are at least 5 minutes long. 🙂
Yes, computers are annoyingly literal. I really miss the DWIM feature ("Do What I Mean") of the interlisp environment (OK, it never worked very well, and it was not very successfully copied into GNU Emacs).
Think I got indoctrinated early with the hi-fi partisan concept of 'if it's not a pain in the *** it's probably not worth it'. So different formats, each with their own oddities ---- got that Usb micrco-cam with onscreen-vernier for setting Stylus Rake Angle ? --- are kind of the rule around here.
The very idea of ripping a library-- everything, across all formats-- to digital goes against the grain still, but it is the way of the world now, I guess.
The very idea of ripping a library-- everything, across all formats-- to digital goes against the grain still, but it is the way of the world now, I guess.
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I can assure you that computer audio has it's own unique set of pains to deal with 🙂
I haven't kept much stuff in analog formats, so for me the source of the material is pretty much all digital - and as I don't see the point of DSD (it might have seemed like a good idea in the 90's, considering the hardware shortcomings of that era), so for me it is all one single format - PCM digital, that I store in FLAC (sample rates and word lengths don't really matter from the point of storing, managing and playing the stuff).
Believe you 1oo% on that.
Cool. I've got to put in a little time with the relevant wiki material on, yes, Well-Tempered-Computer, and Hydrogenaudio [for foobar-specific metadata, etc]. I think 'Computer Audiophile' has an article on standalone pc-based music file-servers that I should reread, too.
Well-Tempered Computer and Hydrogenaudio are great resources, Computer Audiophile is a for-profit site with a bit of a bias, so take their advice with a spoonful of salt - especially their hardware recommendations.
updating the project as it goes
Proceeding here in such a way that I see actual SNAILS zooming by me in the passing lanes.
But got a Win XPpro OS installed and working on music-server computer. Never seen a computer running so lean and minimal; windows Task Manager has me using about 1-3% cpu and o.7 gb ram. Which is because there's nothing on it except windows, and even that looks like it could be trimmed by at least half, once I've established the fundamentals.
In the operational phase I think I only need: server software (foobar), networking-router, sound files library, monitor, mouse. And once things seem like they're all going to work together properly, I think the monitor & mouse can be shelved in favor of a remote wireless-networked controller, like a tablet or laptop.
Once that proves itself, definitely a new sound card. The point there (rather than usb out) being that an improved sound card will allow analog outs as well as spdif out to a dac. I think I like the idea of more options this way. The Asus Xonar Stx card seems like the obvious, and mates to an old-school pci-expansion-slot system, which it must in my server.
And installing a new sound card doesn't rule out a usb-output at some point, either.
For now I've transferred a folder of sound files (via copying them to ext Hd and physically reconnecting to the new server) and more confusingly, trying to work out what's better to get Foobar on the new machine..... There are ways of shifting the old reliable preconfigured one I've used for years over, as is. And then there is an entirely new installation. Not really clear on how either happens, but working thru it. Doing nothing that will introduce wobblies into the new world of the new (old) machine.
Just pleased to have a fully functional xp-pro environment into which I'll set the new server. And then start ripping out the unnecessaries. Outlook Express? gone. IM via MS? gone. Games, paint, powerpoint, all garbage, gone. That will be the fun part.
Proceeding here in such a way that I see actual SNAILS zooming by me in the passing lanes.
But got a Win XPpro OS installed and working on music-server computer. Never seen a computer running so lean and minimal; windows Task Manager has me using about 1-3% cpu and o.7 gb ram. Which is because there's nothing on it except windows, and even that looks like it could be trimmed by at least half, once I've established the fundamentals.
In the operational phase I think I only need: server software (foobar), networking-router, sound files library, monitor, mouse. And once things seem like they're all going to work together properly, I think the monitor & mouse can be shelved in favor of a remote wireless-networked controller, like a tablet or laptop.
Once that proves itself, definitely a new sound card. The point there (rather than usb out) being that an improved sound card will allow analog outs as well as spdif out to a dac. I think I like the idea of more options this way. The Asus Xonar Stx card seems like the obvious, and mates to an old-school pci-expansion-slot system, which it must in my server.
And installing a new sound card doesn't rule out a usb-output at some point, either.
For now I've transferred a folder of sound files (via copying them to ext Hd and physically reconnecting to the new server) and more confusingly, trying to work out what's better to get Foobar on the new machine..... There are ways of shifting the old reliable preconfigured one I've used for years over, as is. And then there is an entirely new installation. Not really clear on how either happens, but working thru it. Doing nothing that will introduce wobblies into the new world of the new (old) machine.
Just pleased to have a fully functional xp-pro environment into which I'll set the new server. And then start ripping out the unnecessaries. Outlook Express? gone. IM via MS? gone. Games, paint, powerpoint, all garbage, gone. That will be the fun part.
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Not entirely sure where to put the ripping activities, whether onboard the server or not; not an issue, exactly, because Foobar contains a very reliable ripping utility. But in order to access 'AccurateRip', 'FreeDb' and 'MusicBrainz' aspects (all built in to foobar)-- the ripping process must take place on a platform that is online.
One of the most compelling aspects of the server idea here is that it NEVER goes online, so maybe the ripping takes place elsewhere, on a desktop or laptop w/ online. And then only tagged, complete soundfile packets ever make their way onboard the server. An interesting, rather than annoying, thing to configure, anyway it goes.
One of the most compelling aspects of the server idea here is that it NEVER goes online, so maybe the ripping takes place elsewhere, on a desktop or laptop w/ online. And then only tagged, complete soundfile packets ever make their way onboard the server. An interesting, rather than annoying, thing to configure, anyway it goes.
guilder you said this:
The big question is how do you plan to connect your computer to your hifi system? Do you have a DAC with USB input? This is by far the best option since it avoids using PC soundcard.
I did not know the usb cord avoids the PC sound card and what great news that is.My DAC has a usb port and I am using it.Set up sounds very good.
Can you explain how it avoids the sound card...I don't have a clue?
Thank you
The big question is how do you plan to connect your computer to your hifi system? Do you have a DAC with USB input? This is by far the best option since it avoids using PC soundcard.
I did not know the usb cord avoids the PC sound card and what great news that is.My DAC has a usb port and I am using it.Set up sounds very good.
Can you explain how it avoids the sound card...I don't have a clue?
Thank you
Pretty simple - a computer has different input-output channels, most of them with their own semi-intelligent controller. The sound card is one - for analog and "traditional" (spdif) digital audio. The USB is a totally separate, independent and more general interface, and the USB protocol supports all kinds of data and devices. One of the possibilities is a USB DAC, that can receive data over the USB connection and turn it into sound (just like a sound card would).
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