streamlined server project

[intermittent]

Hi, hope this is something you can help with.

My project is to take a relatively mint Dell computer, with a blank hard-drive, and do a bare-bones/ no-frills Foobar2k music server.

I'll post a list of the gear I'd be using, and how/ why/ what-- but just wanted to get the general outline here.
Short as I can make it :

My Hp laptop is getting full of Wav files that I play thru my sound system; about 40 gb comprising about 120 cd/album-length files.
I am backed up on an external Hp hard-drive, but it's time to create a real, purpose-built, audiophile server.

Came across a very-good condition Dell 2400 missing a Hd. Bought a refurbed 'blank' 80 gb hd to get started with.
I'm right now at 'setup' with the Dell, and the cpu has recognized the new blank hd. Also gotten a passing grade from internal dell drive-diagnostic on the new hd.

So far so good.

What I'm after is a super-clean, lossless, music-only installation here, wherein I have a small monitor and wireless mouse to navigate foobar playback, jacked into my large sound system. Also, having the intermittent capability to go online with a minimalist browser, both to download new music files or to get updates and new version players from foobar as they come about. I'd like to be able to use either of the cd/dvd drives in the Dell to rip cds within the foobar app. Oh, and also should be able to network with other pc(s) for whatever. But no more.

For playback I'd be setting controls to offline and halting any processes not intrinsic to the bottom line of playback.

Can buy new Xp cd-startup sets--- need something to boot, got nothing with the machine; the machine is formerly Xp-pro, for which replacement startup-sets are available but expensive. Wondering if I could just use Xp-home, which is quite inexpensive in NOS retail version these days.

Also, though, I'm wondering if I should skip the whole idea of using the discontinued Xp OS, which probably has too much (outdated) functionality anyway. Should I be looking into a fully-supported, minimalist Os like a Linux/ Ubuntu/ Server-Edition kind of setup ?

I'm on pretty firm ground with the audio stuff; on the computer expertise, I'm a beginner. (Beginner with decades of computer use, but not with setup or formatting complexities.)

Any thoughts here / suggestions ? Thanks very much for responses !

 

[Julf]

My project is to take a relatively mint Dell computer, with a blank hard-drive, and do a bare-bones/ no-frills Foobar2k music server.

For a music server, wouldn't you want to go for a fanless computer?

My Hp laptop is getting full of Wav files that I play thru my sound system; about 40 gb comprising about 120 cd/album-length files.

Any specific reason to use the wav format? Switching to FLAC would make it possible to store double the amount of music, and have proper tag/metadata support with no impact on sound quality.

Also, though, I'm wondering if I should skip the whole idea of using the discontinued Xp OS, which probably has too much (outdated) functionality anyway. Should I be looking into a fully-supported, minimalist Os like a Linux/ Ubuntu/ Server-Edition kind of setup ?

I would definitely go for a linux-based setup, not just for configurability and flexibility, but also for security if you ever connect to the internet - XP is not supported any more, so security vulnerabilities don't get fixed.

 

[intermittent]

Hi, thanks, good points.
Flac : Around four or five years back, when reading-up on the lossless formats for music storage, I came up with Wav having advantages over the others. Flac would have been second choice, but to tell the truth, I can't even recall the technical elements that made me choose Wav. That said, I chose it then, and over time created some 120 cd files as they came my way along those years. So I've got them, and now there are enough of them to create a small server.

Not looking here to create a perfect, expandable 'Source Of The Future', rather a nice workable alternative source to the Lp and Cd front-end sources in my system. And maybe to learn some things by starting with the existing files, a new Fb2k installation, and a 'blank' computer.

The hope is that this project will not be on the net or connected to any networking on any regular basis. The idea is to have it stand on its own as an Audio component, fulltime and uninterrupted by doing computer things on the side, part time. It will still need to have those capabilities, for the occasional file upload or even Foobar update.

Yes of course a fanless machine would have been better, but I've gone from getting the machine, for nothing, to the idea, not the other way, so I'm working with what has come my way. Been thinking about doing this for years, it should be said, and I'm willing to go from this version toward perfecting the hardware (and increasing storage) as and if it proves useful and successful.

Thanks for seconding the Linux/Ubuntu option, I'm leaning that way myself largely due to the business model, of all things. Whereas it seems to Microsoft that their interest lies in discontinuing and shutting-down the whole XP system, the Lin/U interest seems to be in furthering an open system that keeps evolving and is freeware that either gets upgraded or freely replaced by later versions. Just now reading up on Linux/ Ubuntu/ Gnome, which seems versatile and user-configurable, a bit like Foobar2k, actually.

Just comes to whether it can be overlaid on this former Xp-pro machine, and --- crucially -- whether I'm capable with my *truly* beginner skills of installing and working with it.

Right now looking for guidance, not being a computer setup or format tech. I'm staring at a screen on the dell that wants me to either a) to boot up an operating system, or b) to format/ partition the blank hard drive. Not sure of where to get info or faq material to take me thru this ...

thanks for any thoughts or suggestions ..

 

[6L6]

Storage size - who cares. Drives are cheap. Buy another when you need more room.

Fanless - this might be an issue, depending on how quiet your listening setup is in total. You can, of course, put it in another room.

Software - I wholeheartedly suggest JRiver. It is awesome. Simply awesome. As it has the ability to play essentially all the file formats, and pipe them down an USB, you merely need a DAC that can also use all file formats natively. This way you will be as future-proof as is possible. And look for the App call JRemote for your mobile device. Control it from your seat. 🙂

To the hardware end, I suggest the iFi IDSD (wither Nano or Micro) it's important spec being able to handle all the various formats, making the job of the PC nothing more than sending the music file to the DAC, with no processing or re-formatting.

I use this, I have suggested it to friends who use it, and everybody is very very happy with the setup.

 

[Julf]

Flac : Around four or five years back, when reading-up on the lossless formats for music storage, I came up with Wav having advantages over the others. Flac would have been second choice, but to tell the truth, I can't even recall the technical elements that made me choose Wav. That said, I chose it then, and over time created some 120 cd files as they came my way along those years. So I've got them, and now there are enough of them to create a small server.

Right - it would not be that hard to run a batch encoding program to automatically convert them all. The 50% space saving that FLAC offers (losslessly) is not the main advantage. The main reason to go FLAC (or some other format with standardized metadata tags, unlike WAV) is really the metadata - by far the hardest and most time-consuming part of building a music collection.

The hope is that this project will not be on the net or connected to any networking on any regular basis.

Unfortunately even occasional network connectivity seems to be a pretty big security risk these days.

The idea is to have it stand on its own as an Audio component, fulltime and uninterrupted by doing computer things on the side, part time.

In that case, I would look at a small, fanless computer - either a NAS or something like a Raspberry Pi.

Yes of course a fanless machine would have been better, but I've gone from getting the machine, for nothing, to the idea, not the other way, so I'm working with what has come my way.

Far enough, that is how I started too.

Thanks for seconding the Linux/Ubuntu option, I'm leaning that way myself largely due to the business model, of all things.

Yes - I'd much rather get the support of a bunch of dedicated geeks than a Microsoft call center drone 🙂

Just comes to whether it can be overlaid on this former Xp-pro machine, and --- crucially -- whether I'm capable with my *truly* beginner skills of installing and working with it.

If the computer ran XP, it will run Linux.

Right now looking for guidance, not being a computer setup or format tech. I'm staring at a screen on the dell that wants me to either a) to boot up an operating system, or b) to format/ partition the blank hard drive. Not sure of where to get info or faq material to take me thru this ...

thanks for any thoughts or suggestions ..

There are a bunch of dedicated linux distros for playing music. I suggest you check out the entry on Distributions on The Well-Tempered Computer - the whole site is an excellent resource on computer audio.

 

[Julf]

Storage size - who cares. Drives are cheap. Buy another when you need more room.

Even if drives are cheap, wasting half the space - and network bandwidth - is just unnecessary.

To the hardware end, I suggest the iFi IDSD (wither Nano or Micro) it's important spec being able to handle all the various formats, making the job of the PC nothing more than sending the music file to the DAC, with no processing or re-formatting.

It is my understanding that the OP only has a single format, so multi-format is not an issue. And even if you think you have all formats covered, there will be a new one next week 🙂

 

[gbuilder]

Lots of good advice here. However, there is nothing to say your original (and free) proposal shouldn't meet your needs, especially as a starting point. XP & foobar/jriver(£) or Ubuntu & foobar.

The big question is how do you plan to connect your computer to your hifi system? Do you have a DAC with USB input? This is by far the best option since it avoids using PC soundcard. If this is your plan you should double check the DAC supports linux as some don't.

 

[intermittent]

Strikes me here that maybe the way to go with the overall topology is to have a laptop or tablet that sits on the top shelf of the audio system, working as the playback component -- but networked to the nearby cpu. The cpu would be an entirely different and discrete separate computer . . . which would comprise the mass storage system, (and which would be the desktop cpu I'm working on now).

The cpu could stand inconspicuously in back of the audio rack. The laptop could be thin and need not have a drive. It would represent the 'front-of-house' visual component while being the actual file player.

Once all in place, you'd have fanless silent hi-rez playback with the laptop screen as Gui, the trackpad as compact navigation, and the partnered Cpu for storage and ripping and the rest that you would only need periodically. In practice, once you have some playlists up on the laptop or tablet, you could halt the network connection to the cpu, and shut that down completely ...

 

[Julf]

Strikes me here that maybe the way to go with the overall topology is to have a laptop or tablet that sits on the top shelf of the audio system, working as the playback component -- but networked to the nearby cpu.

Indeed. My collection (1500 albums, 500 Mbytes) lives on a server in a storage room, and is played by both desktop and laptop computers (one mac, 2 linux machines, on dedicated "music player" computers (2 raspberry pi's (one of them hidden inside a 1950's radio), and dedicated streaming players (squeezeboxes).

Once all in place, you'd have fanless silent hi-rez playback with the laptop screen as Gui, the trackpad as compact navigation, and the partnered Cpu for storage and ripping and the rest that you would only need periodically. In practice, once you have some playlists up on the laptop or tablet, you could halt the network connection to the cpu, and shut that down completely ...

That works as long as your music fits on the laptop. Once your collection grows, or you want to play at multiple locations, you might want to look at streaming in real time between the server and the player machine.

 

[phofman]

Just from my experience: A fanned PC for audio will eventually drive you crazy. While making a fanless PC capable of running a full-blown desktop OS is rather expensive (= at least hundreds of dollars).

Recently I (almost) finished my little network radio. I am preparing a blog writeup but to summarize:

* fanless Fujitsu-Siemens Futro S400 (S250-S450), ebay 10 EUR + shipping (7 EUR to my country).

* It came with 512MB RAM, 512 MB CF card, just enough for Linux Voyage (mpd variant) designed for embedded devices. Single 12V PSU, can be SMPS or linear, takes about 1-2 amps.

* The PC offers PCI slot wih a riser. I cut the +12V/-12V traces on the riser (-12V was not provided by the PC anyway), soldered wires (+12V/GND/-12V) a built a simple linear +12V/-12V PSU for a few euro. A decent PCI soundcard (up to 192/24) with cinches (in my case SQ210a), or USB DAC.

* Running MPD.

* Operated by inexpensive chinese android tablet (no 3G, low battery life). The tablet will be hanging on the wall and constantly charged (remains to be done)

* No GUI/screen/keyboard/monitor, The little PC is placed directly into my living room hi-fi table.

I have toyed with the PC to control my AVR via RS232, it switches the additional linear PSU automatically to save power, etc. Nothing crucial though.

Costs - a few tens of EURO (I already had the soundcard) + the tablet (57 USD incl. S/H). Plus quite a few (tens) of hours of my time - being a pleasure, not chore 🙂

Load - radio streaming (my main purpose) - CPU scaled down to to 666 MHz - 98% idle.

Startup time (wake-on-lan from suspended-to-memory) - from pushing the "Radio ON" icon on tablet desktop to sound coming from speakers about 3 seconds including automated AVR power-on and switching its inputs to correct pair.

Sound - no blind tests, but I cannot hear any noise coming from the speakers.

To conclude - dump the fanned PC, get a low-power fannless thin client for a few bucks, use latest version of linux voyage (recent linux kernel supporting most USB DACs), keep the rotating parts (music) in another room (network access - samba or sshfs) and grab the opportunity to learn A LOT while playing with your setup.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[intermittent]

Hi, thanks for the response.

Storage size - who cares. Drives are cheap. Buy another when you need more room.

Yes, that was kind of the idea in getting my present 8o-gig blank hd. There is the thing, though, that presumably if you replace the drive for a bigger one, you have (scary, mysterious) re-formatting to do, and need to secure your original music files while you do it. Could do a secondary hd, plenty of room for same in cpu. But adding a secondary drive would entail more noise, I'd imagine.

Fanless - this might be an issue, depending on how quiet your listening setup is in total. You can, of course, put it in another room.

Yes. Coincidentally my sound system sits right next to a convenient closet with a good circa-1948 door. Worth considering.

Software - I wholeheartedly suggest JRiver. It is awesome. Simply awesome. As it has the ability to play essentially all the file formats, and pipe them down an USB, you merely need a DAC that can also use all file formats natively. This way you will be as future-proof as is possible. And look for the App call JRemote for your mobile device. Control it from your seat.

Thanks yes have seen the jriver system in a showroom and it is really quite impressive. That may come along in chapter two, or three, of this project. For now, in the spirit of the original free hardware that spurred this whole thing, I'm going with Foobar, which has the added appeal for me that I've been using it for over five years so far.
There is something to the idea of having everything open-source and freeware-- to me it would truly be a worthwhile goal to have a system comprised of free hardware running linux and foobar. Playing a library of borrowed, lent, shared, or just formerly-owned, music files. And once having learned the lessons, THEN do the extreme-audio expenditure festivities. Use other formats. Buy some hi-rez downloads from the music vendors. If you're going to do both versions, and lets face it I probably am, I've learned that doing the free one first is a good plan.

To the hardware end, I suggest the iFi IDSD (wither Nano or Micro) it's important spec being able to handle all the various formats, making the job of the PC nothing more than sending the music file to the DAC, with no processing or re-formatting.

Thanks, it is a real consideration; in no way is reformatting or reprocessing in the plan here. Unlike many people though, I don't have a wide selection of formats from mp3 to hi-rez, which is good for keeping this simple. For now, I'm entirely 16/44 wav, and at least for cd ripping, will keep to that. The future may bring diversification, but I'm pretty much just at the beginning here and looking to keep it very uniform while I get some *competence* going for me on the computer-audio skills set.

 

[intermittent]

Lots of good advice here.

Wow, I'll say; thanks to all who have posted. Thoughtful responses here.

However, there is nothing to say your original (and free) proposal shouldn't meet your needs, especially as a starting point. XP & foobar/jriver(£) or Ubuntu & foobar.

Yes, it is a starting point. Or a continuation point. If you're an audiophile but have been limping along for years with an ever-growing load of sound-files on laptops, there just comes that point where you want to try creating a purpose-built computer-audio source, customized to your own user profile, and unburdened by anything non-music. (ie, no need to halt playback to check email or something. Ever.)

The big question is how do you plan to connect your computer to your hifi system? Do you have a DAC with USB input? This is by far the best option since it avoids using PC soundcard. If this is your plan you should double check the DAC supports linux as some don't.

Well, maybe not such a big question for me; I feel on much much firmer ground with audio than I do with computer configuration. Right now I have no dac at all, and use for cd playback a denon 'broadcast' cd player, clean neutral sound, nothing tricky at all.

For years I used better and better integrated transport/dac cd players until sometime in the nineties going to Theta Digital separates along with theta's outboard reclocker. That made gorgeous music and I stuck with it for maybe ten years. Since then I've belonged to the Dac of the Year club, each having had various capabilities, usb connections, upsampling or in one case zero-oversampling. Everything has its merits and the technology keeps changing. I'm okay with that; dacs are more like computers to me-- processors--- than they are like audio topologies. So maybe there is a different set of criteria for using/choosing dacs.

Here in this project, my intention is to go up the ladder of "better" sound/connection/gear, as I feel the project warrants it. So first, right out of the line-outs of the cpu. Then maybe a better sound card. Or maybe some way to get coax-spdif, or aes, or even I2S-- directly off the mother board without the usb interface getting in the middle. Or maybe just a good asymmetric usb dac. As above, I'm viewing audio connectivity as something to play with, something I have control over (unlike the mysteries of computering where I don't feel too confident experimenting).

 

[randytsuch]

So if you want to get something going cheaply and easily, download daphile and put it on a bootable usb stick, and then boot your PC from that stick.

Daphile runs "headless", which means you control it from another PC or ipad or phone, accessing from a web browser.

Easiest way to get it going, and it's free.

There's a thread on Daphile in this forum.

Randy

 

[intermittent]

So if you want to get something going cheaply and easily, download daphile and put it on a bootable usb stick, and then boot your PC from that stick.
Daphile runs "headless", which means you control it from another PC or ipad or phone, accessing from a web browser.
Easiest way to get it going, and it's free.

Yes, I just saw that thread in the last week or so. Not entirely sure I want a Usb interface, though, and I don't really want to be online with a self-contained server, once the system is set up and in regular use. My project here, as I envision it, also doesn't have to be easy, or free, or even fast; there are other sources here, and certainly no need to rush.

(If I need to sacrifice a little in the way of setup convenience but get a leaner, more customized end result, perhaps something that offers an array of audio-out options, that would be worthwhile. There is something in the diy ethos that distrusts a one-step/ one-stop kind of fix like daphile, perhaps?)

But Daphile is pretty new; I'll have to read thru that fifty page thread to get the picture.
It does appear that it would have some features to recommend it here. (Gotta say some would be reluctant to sign on to an OS that has only audiophiles or computerphiles as its central constituency. Linux or Microsoft have track records, and user numbers, that weigh in on their behalf ...)

No doubt, though, the Daphile system is worth keeping an eye on for the next year or so to see what it turns into. As we all know, not every good idea turns out to be a linux or even a foobar, given the longer run. (By which I mean longer run in IT time, ie., months.)

 

[phofman]

Daphile is gentoo linux designed for easy installation/upgrade/reliability (fixed unmutable filesystem) with an elaborate custom-made configuration web layer. Very likely the most advanced no-fuss solution for single installation/no touching afterwards, hats off to the developer. Not possible to make any changes though, by default the system does not have ssh access enabled. Not possible to add any functionality (packages) by the user easily. It has certainly found its users but not really aiming at DIY guys.

 

[intermittent]

Indeed. My collection (1500 albums, 500 Mbytes) lives on a server in a storage room, and is played by both desktop and laptop computers (one mac, 2 linux machines, on dedicated "music player" computers (2 raspberry pi's (one of them hidden inside a 1950's radio), and dedicated streaming players (squeezeboxes).

That works as long as your music fits on the laptop. Once your collection grows, or you want to play at multiple locations, you might want to look at streaming in real time between the server and the player machine.

Julf, just a question about numbers here; my calculation of my library of wav files indicates that about 100-120 albums, (cd 'albums' of differing lengths, generally 40-60 minutes worth) equates to about 40 GB of disc space, or about 20% of all the Hd storage on my laptop. A quick google tells me that your 5oo MB is a lot less, and you're saying 15oo albums ? Are we discussing the same things ? Or are you using big compression ? Not clear on this.

As to whether things would fit, on a laptop/ tablet "front desk" sort of player, as previously described up the thread, well, seems that with the laptop size I have here, I could do that kind of thing. With constantly rotating groups of several-dozen titles, compiled as playlists, that could be cleared once played and then others added from the cpu, as the current rotation was felt to be played out. (If I can load each and every cd or lp, I can certainly load playlists consisting of dozens, although there would be the file-transfer chore when this rotated...)

As before, though, not interested in any sort of future-proof super-library server; just looking to play around with another plausibly hifi source in the existing system, and to give the wav files on hand a chance at their own domain (probably the wrong word there.) Their own venue, say.

Ah well, that whole conception of the front-desk-laptop/ back-library-cpu is well into the future anyway. For now I'm still wondering at the discrepancy in disc space above....
Thanks.

 

[intermittent]

Just from my experience: A fanned PC for audio will eventually drive you crazy. While making a fanless PC capable of running a full-blown desktop OS is rather expensive (= at least hundreds of dollars).
..........
To conclude - dump the fanned PC, get a low-power fannless thin client for a few bucks, use latest version of linux voyage (recent linux kernel supporting most USB DACs), keep the rotating parts (music) in another room (network access - samba or sshfs) and grab the opportunity to learn A LOT while playing with your setup

Thanks for very interesting post; and yes, I'm sure it's true about hearing that fan output. Two fans here, in fact.
A lot of the info here is perhaps more about the system that FOLLOWS the current experiment, though. I'm sure my eventual ideal server system will have a lot of changes if ever compared to what I think it might resemble now. Working now on the idea of just birthing an operable system; fun to think of refinements but gotta pop out the first puppy before going into breeding for ribbons and medals. (Okay, coarse analogy, I know.)

And yeah, thinking a lot about that closet that is adjacent to my audio rack .... HOW far is an acceptable run for a Usb connection ? For some reason I think maybe Aes-Ebu or even Spdif might be better for such a closet-to-daylight run ..... two meters, three maybe. Which I *think* implies upgraded-soundboard, rather than usb-dac.

 

[Julf]

Julf, just a question about numbers here; my calculation of my library of wav files indicates that about 100-120 albums, (cd 'albums' of differing lengths, generally 40-60 minutes worth) equates to about 40 GB of disc space, or about 20% of all the Hd storage on my laptop. A quick google tells me that your 5oo MB is a lot less, and you're saying 15oo albums ? Are we discussing the same things ? Or are you using big compression ? Not clear on this.

I am using a wonderful, new and patented audiophile compression based on magic crystals. 🙂

I of course made a typo - my library is 500 GB, not 500 MB (it is in FLAC, but contains some "hi-res" material too).

As to whether things would fit, on a laptop/ tablet "front desk" sort of player, as previously described up the thread, well, seems that with the laptop size I have here, I could do that kind of thing. With constantly rotating groups of several-dozen titles, compiled as playlists, that could be cleared once played and then others added from the cpu, as the current rotation was felt to be played out. (If I can load each and every cd or lp, I can certainly load playlists consisting of dozens, although there would be the file-transfer chore when this rotated...)

That would work - but all I can say is that one of the most important benefits of a computer-based system is that you can play any track out of your collection whenever you feel the fancy (maybe based on a search of tags). To me that has proven so important that I even had to upgrade my car system to hold my whole collection instead of a subset. OK, the importance of that is being reduced by the likes of spotify...

 

[phofman]

And yeah, thinking a lot about that closet that is adjacent to my audio rack .... HOW far is an acceptable run for a Usb connection ? For some reason I think maybe Aes-Ebu or even Spdif might be better for such a closet-to-daylight run ..... two meters, three maybe. Which I *think* implies upgraded-soundboard, rather than usb-dac.

Had I not already owned the spare PCI card, I would have had used a USB soundcard instead. There is nothing wrong with decently done USB. I would certainly make a standalone +5V PSU for the soundcard, just for the peace of mind. People report good results e.g. with the inexpensive Behringers (UCA202/UCA222), or I would have most likely experimented with dirt-cheap chinese makes of ODAC (50 USD incl. S/H from aliexpress) which is usb async v.2, dedicated crystal clocks for each samplerate family. The upgradability of the linux setup allows easy updates to the latest linux audio drivers should an unexpected driver defficiency arise. And the linux sound community responds to reported problems within hours 🙂

 

[Julf]

HOW far is an acceptable run for a Usb connection?

3 meters. I second phofman's recommendation for a cheap USB DAC.