Bingo! You condensed it down to what matters to me. Fun! I've sat in front of some amazingly accurate tracking and mix monitors, and they are great tools, but I always could not wait to be able to hear playback cranking through the mongo soffit mount JBL's, or the musicality of the 604's. I also am the weirdo that much prefers a great studio production, to the sound of most live mixes that I've heard. Live orchestral presentations have touched me deeply, but I'm in front of a stereo much more than I'm in a concert hall. I appreciate it all. If it moves you, however you get there, then it's a win. Glenn.
It seems fitting to link my review of the Klipsch Heresy IV in this thread so we can see just what they actually measure like.
Klipsch Heresy IV Speaker Review
I give my own subjective thoughts (spoiler alert: I didn't like them) in the review but I think the data pretty much tells you what you need to know if you know how to read the data. And it aligned with my subjective evaluations quite well. Aside from being very inaccurate, they had major resonance issues that killed any sort of enjoyment for me. $3000 speakers shouldn't have standing wave issues like these do. But, there is the notion that Klipsch knows what their customers want/expect and Klipsch just delivers that, warts and all. The soundstage would collapse and expand within a single octave because the radiation pattern was all over the place. It was just a very boring experience for me.
Ironically, the way I was able to test them is a fellow had watched a review from a big YouTube Klipsch guy who raved about the Heresy IV. The fellow bought them based on said review. The guy wound up hating them and then asked if I would be willing to test them to see if he could understand just what was so bad about them. So, I said sure. I've had them at my house since last July. He hasn't picked them up yet because he doesn't care enough about them to even bother.
FWIW, I am using JBL Pro Cinema compression drivers and 15-inch midwoofers in my home theater for L/C/R. So this isn't a "I hate horns" thing. It's a "the Heresy IV is a bad design" thing. Based on all the negative feedback I got when I posted my review, it seems the *majority* (not all) of Klipsch owners are older and have a fondness for Klipsch stemming from nostalgia and aren't necessarily interested in accuracy or fidelity but more so simply owning a speaker from a company they have had on a pedestal since the 70's/80's. That is in no way a "diss". It is simply an observation.
Klipsch Heresy IV Speaker Review
I give my own subjective thoughts (spoiler alert: I didn't like them) in the review but I think the data pretty much tells you what you need to know if you know how to read the data. And it aligned with my subjective evaluations quite well. Aside from being very inaccurate, they had major resonance issues that killed any sort of enjoyment for me. $3000 speakers shouldn't have standing wave issues like these do. But, there is the notion that Klipsch knows what their customers want/expect and Klipsch just delivers that, warts and all. The soundstage would collapse and expand within a single octave because the radiation pattern was all over the place. It was just a very boring experience for me.
Ironically, the way I was able to test them is a fellow had watched a review from a big YouTube Klipsch guy who raved about the Heresy IV. The fellow bought them based on said review. The guy wound up hating them and then asked if I would be willing to test them to see if he could understand just what was so bad about them. So, I said sure. I've had them at my house since last July. He hasn't picked them up yet because he doesn't care enough about them to even bother.
FWIW, I am using JBL Pro Cinema compression drivers and 15-inch midwoofers in my home theater for L/C/R. So this isn't a "I hate horns" thing. It's a "the Heresy IV is a bad design" thing. Based on all the negative feedback I got when I posted my review, it seems the *majority* (not all) of Klipsch owners are older and have a fondness for Klipsch stemming from nostalgia and aren't necessarily interested in accuracy or fidelity but more so simply owning a speaker from a company they have had on a pedestal since the 70's/80's. That is in no way a "diss". It is simply an observation.
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I reread Reichert's columns in SOUND PRACTICES on occasion since they still contain lots of wisdom and his writing is graceful.
This pairing is like a Mastiff tolerating a chihuahua.
This pairing is like a Mastiff tolerating a chihuahua.
I came to the same conclusion after awhile. I haven't watched his videos in some time and only did this one because of Herb. Actually, I just listened to it while working, I can't imagine stopping everything to watch it.
Steve's background is in sales and it shows. His excitement about audio probably sold a lot of equipment back then and is selling an immense amount now.
rickmcinnis... nice to see that name. Fond memories of the CICS/CMS project... BTW, I too enjoy Herb's view and expression.
WRT Klipsch... I have only heard them at an audio show. To their credit, they rented the biggest suit at the show to give some room. The LaScallas were in one end of the suite with the Cornwall on the other. I wanted to like them and spent some time listening to each. But I sort of got bored and left without getting what people like. There were a lot of people standing around talking so it was not an ideal demo.
But I do not dismiss the potential of a good horn. After the pandemic I plan to explore these BiRadial horns by Joseph Crowe.
WRT Klipsch... I have only heard them at an audio show. To their credit, they rented the biggest suit at the show to give some room. The LaScallas were in one end of the suite with the Cornwall on the other. I wanted to like them and spent some time listening to each. But I sort of got bored and left without getting what people like. There were a lot of people standing around talking so it was not an ideal demo.
But I do not dismiss the potential of a good horn. After the pandemic I plan to explore these BiRadial horns by Joseph Crowe.
Attachments
OK I've stood in front of enough drum kits when at uni to know that they are
loud and dynamic. BUT that level never makes it out the mix studio. It has to be compressed or the end result will be unplayable. Even audiophile spectaculars like Dafos were recorded so as not to kill the playback system (yes in my card carrying audiophile days I bought a copy). So if a drum kit sounds like a live drum kit at live drum kit levels are the speakers 'adding something'?I get that horns can generally go louder (owners of big active ATCs and their like aside) and that the hoofing great woofers that go with them are often
lower distortion than a weedy 6" bouncing off the end stops, but is there something else? Certainly if you are sitting in front of a pair of speakers that looks like a Triffid looming over you, you will probably think 'dang these will go loud and be dynamic'.
To be clear, I want people to have fun with music and wont diss anyone who prefers a certain set of compromises in the name of that fun. I just wonder what is really going on when people talk about things that aren't/can't be on the recording. And there is no sour grapes in my having a small house that won't fit big efficient speakers into 😀
And for an anecdote on Dafos see here https://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/drop-drum/ I take all things Paul McGowan writes with a big pinch of salt, but he does have IRS Vs in the company listening room so he can't be all bad. A dozen 12" drivers with a couple of kW of amplification should be enough bass after all.
billshurv...
Many great thoughts in this post and thanks for that..
I have to zero in on your Paul @PS Audio thoughts. I watch his YouTube videos and often scoff at his shameless plugs and also take his stuff with a grain of salt. But his heart is in the right place and I enjoy the banter after his videos.
The link you post is gold. Pure Paul. Ever the salesman but a guy who knows how to have fun and make a living selling Hi End Audio. I think it puts it all in perspective.
Many great thoughts in this post and thanks for that..
I have to zero in on your Paul @PS Audio thoughts. I watch his YouTube videos and often scoff at his shameless plugs and also take his stuff with a grain of salt. But his heart is in the right place and I enjoy the banter after his videos.
The link you post is gold. Pure Paul. Ever the salesman but a guy who knows how to have fun and make a living selling Hi End Audio. I think it puts it all in perspective.
Bill, I do think that all systems are going to add something, based on their technical design merits etc. I don't think any system will ever sound like, or feel like, what real musicians playing live in a room do. Great minds have been obsessed with it from the beginning. You album bombed me! I have Dafos playing on a pair of Chorus ll's as I type!������ I guess that I'm just not as obsessive about absolute reality when I'm listening to enjoy music and be moved. I do love great dynamics, and am ok with some coloration, if it is pleasing to my ears. I can't argue any objective points, I can only know what has pleased me. Paul is a guy that I think would be a great hang, and I would love to stop by his shop and hear those IRS V's. I've had pro driver open baffles floor me too, and they aren't everyone's cup of coffee, because I prefer it over tea. �� Glenn.
Glenn: I think we are on the same page. Thank you. Always helps to get to a common understanding. I find speakers fascinating as there are so many ways to skin the cat and each approach has followers.
BTW if you like Mickey Hart 'Planet Drum' is also worth a listen.
BTW if you like Mickey Hart 'Planet Drum' is also worth a listen.
I repeat that. My first speaker was a Klipsch La Scala. I enjoyed it a lot but for my current ears after almost twenty years listening to the stereo system, they can not offer anything to me. Needless to say the bass horns of La Scala and Klipschorn are really something, but the midrange used in Klipsch horns has a nasty honky coloration. The tweeter is so so. But after all I think La Scala and Klipschorn cal sound amazing if the midrange and tweeter are upgraded. For example B&C DCM50 or BMS 4590 with an Edgar style Tractrix horn or Eliptrac horn. A better tweeter something like Faital Pro HF10AK with a horn like 18Sound XT-120 or Faital Pro STH-100.
Bill, I love Planet Drum! I never cared so much for the Greatful Dead, but I've been a fan of Mickey as long as I've known of him. Out of curiosity, what do you run with your speaker setups, and what speakers have you been bowled over by? I've only had cd's, soft domes, metal domes, but I have looked at some ribbons, planar magnetic, and, Amt's. Also, what type of sound presentation do you strive for? I have figured out that I don't enjoy too laid back or dull, and do prefer neutral to on the forward side on top. It may be my upper hearing loss. 47 years of being a musician has helped that along. 🙂 Glenn.
Ah well I'm one of those wierdos who aims for the stereo illusion above all else. I run small apogee hybrids, with a ribbon covering 500Hz upwards. In the right room they do make you believe there are sounds coming from way to the sides and behind. When I demo'd them I was convinced there was someone playing a harmonica 10ft behind the speakers. And I was convinced he was sitting down. All mind tricks, but the mind tricks I like.
Right now they are in the wrong room but I live in hope of housing them somewhere better in the future.
As for speakers that have wowed me the list is short. ATC SCM100A, wilson watt/puppy/WHOW* and martin logans. I should note that most hifi show demos leave me running from the room. I've not heard good horns in a good room though. I should get out more...
The one that got away is the infinity RS-1b. I was offered a pair of these cheap back in the 90s that had been poorly modified and needed some TLC. But I would never have been able to fit them into a house in the UK.
*I realised about 10 years later that a good chunk of the wow was Dave Wilson having carefully selected the recordings AND telling us what we should expect to hear. But I was impressed and I now know that I can do better. this was also the first time I realised that a good sub can add a lot to the experience.
Right now they are in the wrong room but I live in hope of housing them somewhere better in the future.
As for speakers that have wowed me the list is short. ATC SCM100A, wilson watt/puppy/WHOW* and martin logans. I should note that most hifi show demos leave me running from the room. I've not heard good horns in a good room though. I should get out more...
The one that got away is the infinity RS-1b. I was offered a pair of these cheap back in the 90s that had been poorly modified and needed some TLC. But I would never have been able to fit them into a house in the UK.
*I realised about 10 years later that a good chunk of the wow was Dave Wilson having carefully selected the recordings AND telling us what we should expect to hear. But I was impressed and I now know that I can do better. this was also the first time I realised that a good sub can add a lot to the experience.
I can only imagine what those ATC's must deliver. One of the memories of beautiful midrange was hearing a pair of Proac Response 5's that ran the ATC mid dome. That was a beautiful sounding speaker that I got lost in. I've never even gotten to see a pair of Wilson's in person, but I've done studio tracking where smaller active ATC's were used for tracking, and rough mixes, and they exposed what was there. Same with Meyer Sound monitors, but again, I only have the using them as tools reference, as opposed to lost in listening mindset. It seems like a large percentage of Apogee lovers swear by them. I've never gotten the pleasure of hearing any of their speakers. I love stereo effect too. When sounds dance and move around the perceived soundstage, almost like birds flying around in my head, that takes me to a place that I can really dig! That's why I actually think great studio production through a killer system, at least sonically, is far beyond true live sound for what I really love to hear. Most sound men like to use all the power to show how big their balls are, and then there are venue acoustics to deal with, and so on. I would love to hang with you for listening and dialogue. My mind is always open to be inspired and changed. Glenn.
I should add that in the demos I heard the ATCs for some reason, didn't give an image height as I am used to. At left and right the soundstage was the height of the speakers and much higher in the middle. I suspect it was the room they were in, but other speakers in the same room did I better job. But they did allow me to look into the mix in a way that is addictive. Some recordings sound like a patchwork quilt on good speakers in a good room and you can pick out each track from its placement in the sound stage.
But what I have learned from my time on here is that, with patience and application you can have your cake and eat it. For a couple of thousand $ and a lot of your own time, with the support of members here superb speakers are available of whatever technology floats ones boat. It's a good time to be into audio!
But what I have learned from my time on here is that, with patience and application you can have your cake and eat it. For a couple of thousand $ and a lot of your own time, with the support of members here superb speakers are available of whatever technology floats ones boat. It's a good time to be into audio!