BoJonJovi,
I guess the question I have is this. What kind of listening experience
are you wanting to hear?
I will submit there are only two, as follows:
1. Audience
2. Performer - musician/singer/band leader/conductor
1. If you're wanting audience then you'll want something
like most people want, where you can sit back and
pick out the pieces or the player positions as you
are sitting in the audience.
2. If you're wanting a performer type experience, then
you'll want something with horns such as Klipsch Cornwall
or Cornerhorn or others of this type of speaker.
If you need more, then add a good sub and you'll be there.
It doesn't have to cost $1000s.
The analogy is similar to musician types...
those that can play notes written in front of them
those that can't read squat but they can play.
RARE
Are the ones that can do both, that is speakers or musicians.
Once you realize the type of experience one is desiring
then just go about the business of doing that.
Don't get caught up in all not this not that those are horrible, etc etc.
What these guys have mentioned to you in the thread
is right on the money.
Do not confuse the type of listening experience you want to have
with making the actual music. They are two different thing and
the speaker requirement are different for each.
I've got more musician cabs, boxes, amps, combos than I can use.
When I've run my stereo through them is was only disapointing.
However when I've run my stereo set up as is...it's great.
AND
When I play some blues, rock, soul, what ever and I feel like
playing along I'll plug my AXE into an ol' Fender Reverb and I'm there.
If I want more, then I'll turn down the reverb and run a pedal or two
in front.
I'll sit way back in the room and play.
Hope this helps.
Some examples follow:
Marshall 4 x 12:
JCM800 Lead - Standard
JCM900 Bass - Speakers Original 1ef? Hemp Cone Alnicos
JCM900 BASS - Speakers Celestion S150s
Marshall 4 x 10
Mesa Rectifier 4 X 12 cab, V-30s
Carvin 2 x 12 V-30
at some point I supplemented this with Eminence speakers and
was disapointed.
Others I've tried with Alnicos, Ceramics
4 x 10 bassman - Ceramics
4 x 10 Super Reverb - JBLs
Also the other Fenders of various types heads combos:
1x10
2x10
3x10
1x12
2x12
1x15
2x15
Most other MI amps.
Interesting is:
Mesa Boogie MkII C+
w/ EV12L and the matching 1x12 speaker box EV12L for stereo
separation.
Matchless
w/ various speakers in them.
w/ the orginal speakers there are some problems.
There are many other combinations
that I've burned throug but you get the idea I hope.
Just don't confuse the listening experiece
with the stage presence and you'll be fine.
Hope you don't mind the long post.
I guess the question I have is this. What kind of listening experience
are you wanting to hear?
I will submit there are only two, as follows:
1. Audience
2. Performer - musician/singer/band leader/conductor
1. If you're wanting audience then you'll want something
like most people want, where you can sit back and
pick out the pieces or the player positions as you
are sitting in the audience.
2. If you're wanting a performer type experience, then
you'll want something with horns such as Klipsch Cornwall
or Cornerhorn or others of this type of speaker.
If you need more, then add a good sub and you'll be there.
It doesn't have to cost $1000s.
The analogy is similar to musician types...
those that can play notes written in front of them
those that can't read squat but they can play.
RARE
Are the ones that can do both, that is speakers or musicians.
Once you realize the type of experience one is desiring
then just go about the business of doing that.
Don't get caught up in all not this not that those are horrible, etc etc.
What these guys have mentioned to you in the thread
is right on the money.
Do not confuse the type of listening experience you want to have
with making the actual music. They are two different thing and
the speaker requirement are different for each.
I've got more musician cabs, boxes, amps, combos than I can use.
When I've run my stereo through them is was only disapointing.
However when I've run my stereo set up as is...it's great.
AND
When I play some blues, rock, soul, what ever and I feel like
playing along I'll plug my AXE into an ol' Fender Reverb and I'm there.
If I want more, then I'll turn down the reverb and run a pedal or two
in front.
I'll sit way back in the room and play.
Hope this helps.
Some examples follow:
Marshall 4 x 12:
JCM800 Lead - Standard
JCM900 Bass - Speakers Original 1ef? Hemp Cone Alnicos
JCM900 BASS - Speakers Celestion S150s
Marshall 4 x 10
Mesa Rectifier 4 X 12 cab, V-30s
Carvin 2 x 12 V-30
at some point I supplemented this with Eminence speakers and
was disapointed.
Others I've tried with Alnicos, Ceramics
4 x 10 bassman - Ceramics
4 x 10 Super Reverb - JBLs
Also the other Fenders of various types heads combos:
1x10
2x10
3x10
1x12
2x12
1x15
2x15
Most other MI amps.
Interesting is:
Mesa Boogie MkII C+
w/ EV12L and the matching 1x12 speaker box EV12L for stereo
separation.
Matchless
w/ various speakers in them.
w/ the orginal speakers there are some problems.
There are many other combinations
that I've burned throug but you get the idea I hope.
Just don't confuse the listening experiece
with the stage presence and you'll be fine.
Hope you don't mind the long post.
If you just want to check this out without the hassel of building it.
Find a buddy who plays, then rig up a connector to the output
of your stereo to the speaker of the Music Instrument amp (unplug
the speaker from the MI amp first)
or cab. You can use aligator clips to your MI amp plug of choice
and aligotor clips to the speaker cable (your speaker end disconnected
from your stereo speaker).
That way you can try out all your musician friends gear and
they can learn a bit too.
Its nothing fancy but if you find something you like go from there.
I've made up a bunch of plug in cables and plugs/jacks for this
very reason. Pics at 6 O'Clock if needed.
Hi,
Nothing wrong with pondering the possibilities, and considering
wacky ideas, as long as if a fatal flaw in your argument is
pointed out, you take notice of it, rather than carry on
regardless as though the original argument holds.
Guitar speakers make awful hifi speakers, trust me, period.
(Very poor response, for hifi, very poor distortion, deliberately.)
Building is not a good way to confirm the inevitable wrong,
or consequently being the reason for taking up a hobby.
Bass/PA speakers fair better if you a) like it loud, or b)
are running low powered amplifiers, class A or valve.
But unsurprisingly hifi drivers do best at typical power and
volume and for a reasonable domestic cabinet size.
YMMV but if you built the Tarkus and plied it with 30W+ per channel of
decent valve power I think you'd be happy as a pig in the proverbial.
rgds, sreten.
I also think that the "MJK Alpha 15 / Fostex" and a "Death of Zen" is an idea.
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for what little its worth I think Cannabis Rex used within its range would be no worse than some other Eminence 12 with similar response -running full out its nicer imo than say their Delta10A (which sounds horrid under wideband pink noise) Cannabis Rex has no nasty dustcap to color its response.
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it was a long time ago when Lynn Olson posted some positive comments on the alnico motor Tone Tubby 12" speaker. Eminence's hemp 12 seems to have a look-alike cone (?) The 12" Alnico Tone Tubby
My 10" grey cones of the Altec model300 that I (seldom) use have the same pulp and stamp of a Peavey as I've seen a quartet in a bass box but with plied ext. surround.
I Found them ( the mod300) in the dump and made my first surround repair with them.
Still goin' strong
I Found them ( the mod300) in the dump and made my first surround repair with them.
Still goin' strong
This is what got me going on this
Yes, Lynn's post was what I think started this all for me. I think I am going to look for some TT's used. If I don't like the sound I can always sell them and probably only incur a shipping loss.
The Tone Tubbies have captivated my imagination for a while now.
Yes, Lynn's post was what I think started this all for me. I think I am going to look for some TT's used. If I don't like the sound I can always sell them and probably only incur a shipping loss.
The Tone Tubbies have captivated my imagination for a while now.
tone tubby's take a LONG time to break in and sound good.
plan on at least a couple hundred hours.
plan on at least a couple hundred hours.
You've got a problem BonJovi.
IF for some reason you manage to build a speaker that makes Hendrix and SRV sound more like they already do, and Albert Collins and Buddy Guy sound more like they do. And the newer crop of lesser players sound more like they already do, (which is probably not possible anyhow) the vocals will sound like death. Well, maybe not death, but not quite right. So, that won't work, now will it?
So, the question is, what's wrong with the way it sounds to *you* now?
And, then the next question is after determining that, what can be done to correct the *sources* of your dissatisfaction?
Ultimately, if you go at this quest long enough, hard enough, and with enough knowledge and sufficient money to back it up, you'll arrive at the only place you can go to. Where?
Simple, you need a system that will A) have speakers ofsufficient SPL at sufficiently low distortion and B) amplification and source components that are likewise sufficiently powerful and sufficiently clean. In short, you want an open window (or wall) to the original recording/studio.
Enhancements can be acheived (as they are in the studio) with various gear and software tools, as well as though amplification (for example that which has high even order harmonics) and line level tone controls...
_-_-
IF for some reason you manage to build a speaker that makes Hendrix and SRV sound more like they already do, and Albert Collins and Buddy Guy sound more like they do. And the newer crop of lesser players sound more like they already do, (which is probably not possible anyhow) the vocals will sound like death. Well, maybe not death, but not quite right. So, that won't work, now will it?
So, the question is, what's wrong with the way it sounds to *you* now?
And, then the next question is after determining that, what can be done to correct the *sources* of your dissatisfaction?
Ultimately, if you go at this quest long enough, hard enough, and with enough knowledge and sufficient money to back it up, you'll arrive at the only place you can go to. Where?
Simple, you need a system that will A) have speakers ofsufficient SPL at sufficiently low distortion and B) amplification and source components that are likewise sufficiently powerful and sufficiently clean. In short, you want an open window (or wall) to the original recording/studio.
Enhancements can be acheived (as they are in the studio) with various gear and software tools, as well as though amplification (for example that which has high even order harmonics) and line level tone controls...
_-_-
- BoJonJovi - "if" you go with the Tone Tubby (or similar Cannabis Rex) - what do you intend to use "above" the 12" speaker? ( smaller fullrange?, small waveguide with relatively high crossover? - waveguide similar in size to the 12"?
The more I think about this idea and read your posts, I think I am heading up a dark alley waiting for me ears to mugged. I think I will just try and get some good old alnico speakers that might be suitable for OB. My system now is based off poultrygeists system and I have no complaints at all. I swear if I close my eyes I can reach out and tap the people and their instruments standing in front of me. I am just a guy that needs to tinker and putz around this stuff.
be leery of some old drivers - I've had a University UCX22 and a Lafayette SK58 whose suspensions had stiffened so much that free air resonance was greater than 100Hz. (104 for University, 114 for SK58) - sometimes this will make for nice vocals - lol. For more recent drivers, I've had a pair of Peavey 15 coax and a pair of Peavey 18s both whose resonance was a half octave higher than spec - I think their spiders had stiffened. If my health improves and can shift enough stuff, then may try the Cannabis Rex again or mount some Lil Buddy speakers laying around in boxes on open baffle to mate with Goldwood BW1858 and a waveguide.
what fullrange are you running on your open baffle?
what fullrange are you running on your open baffle?
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Hi,
True. If you take the Tarkus I linked to in a previous post
the midrange was chosen to be good for guitar, however
given that, I'm sure it was voiced for voice above all else.
YMMV, but on a basic level I don't think you need OB
speakers, they are very problematic to get right.
That is, simple builds are inevitably wrong.
rgds,sreten.
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