Would say, 16 gauge cold rolled steel or aluminum sheet be inappropriate for use in the construction of horns such as the Hedlund? I realize there may be resonance issues but these may be overcome by the application of a suitable coating (mastic) or bracing to dampen the resonance. I note that various vintage horns and backhorns appear to be fabricated from sheet metal or metal stampings.
Considering the speed of fabrication I am left to assume that the absence of horn projects utilizing these materials is due to intrinsic sonic considerations.
kwampaku
Considering the speed of fabrication I am left to assume that the absence of horn projects utilizing these materials is due to intrinsic sonic considerations.
kwampaku
I made some HF horns from 16 ga steel. I had a problem with the distortion of the metal while welding. Made two and never did anything with them. A good deal of the commercial horns are cast aluminum
kwampaku,
you as marine engineer probably know that a curved surface is stronger than a flat sheet, so the Hedlund offers itself (I don't like it, but that's my taste, not based on having tried them)...but, as Cal mentioned, welding them might be a nightmare. Go and try, though - I'll keep fingers crossed.
Pit
you as marine engineer probably know that a curved surface is stronger than a flat sheet, so the Hedlund offers itself (I don't like it, but that's my taste, not based on having tried them)...but, as Cal mentioned, welding them might be a nightmare. Go and try, though - I'll keep fingers crossed.
Pit
metal horns
many wonderful horns were made of cast aluminum "back in the day" the resonance problems were overcome by applying thick rubber to the backs of the horns, usually with contact cement or mastic. Steel horns weren't very popular because of weight. It is difficult to create a sheet metal horn due to the reverse draft necessary to make a biradial. Newer designs don't use the reverse draft, but pay for it in sound quality due to standing waves forming in the interior of the horn. Most of this is now overcome with computer software that corrects phase, and compensates for radical eq problems (aka the new series crown amplifiers that are 7000 bucks.)
today, all you have to do is get close, and learn how to correct the problems with a tef (time energy frequency) analyzer program and the accompanying amp/crossover/phase corrector/equalizer combinations that have become all the rage.
many wonderful horns were made of cast aluminum "back in the day" the resonance problems were overcome by applying thick rubber to the backs of the horns, usually with contact cement or mastic. Steel horns weren't very popular because of weight. It is difficult to create a sheet metal horn due to the reverse draft necessary to make a biradial. Newer designs don't use the reverse draft, but pay for it in sound quality due to standing waves forming in the interior of the horn. Most of this is now overcome with computer software that corrects phase, and compensates for radical eq problems (aka the new series crown amplifiers that are 7000 bucks.)
today, all you have to do is get close, and learn how to correct the problems with a tef (time energy frequency) analyzer program and the accompanying amp/crossover/phase corrector/equalizer combinations that have become all the rage.
I'm having someone build me a pair of PAWO horns out of birch. (Free birch is good birch!)
I wonder how much it would cost for the steel to build a solid-metal PAWO horn? Probbably a lot.
I wonder how much it would cost for the steel to build a solid-metal PAWO horn? Probbably a lot.
I once thought about using http://www.emachineshop.com/ to make me a horn out of laminations of 1" thick aluminum CNC cut into a horn shape. As these seemed silly expensive I gave up on it.
For much less money I can "bend" wood by moistening it for 2-3 days. I've seen solid pieces of lumber turned to noodle by steaming. This for making a boat.
For much less money I can "bend" wood by moistening it for 2-3 days. I've seen solid pieces of lumber turned to noodle by steaming. This for making a boat.
Daveis said:
Well, yes.
Or, you could take the old-fashioned approach, and hammer it out of sheets of metal.
Or cast it, for that matter. Lost-wax casting is remarkably effective.
I have some decent metalworking ability, and if a reasonably soft material (copper?) were used, making horns would not be that hard.
Pesky,
R U sure? I only use my Ultracurve for measuring, not for listening - the added A/D D/A conversion somehow takes the "soul" out of the music.
Pit
R U sure? I only use my Ultracurve for measuring, not for listening - the added A/D D/A conversion somehow takes the "soul" out of the music.
Pit
bit depth and sample rate are key
the faster your device the sweeter the sound. Most commercial companies are taking this route, since they can "cheat" physics and create horns that are shorter, and fit into a "commercial"enclosure. JBL is one, which is why they partnered with Crown.
Metal horns produce glistening highs, which is really nice, wooden horns have a more mellow sound, which is great for near field listening. You could create a wooden horn buy using slabs of wood cut from templates made in any 3d program, glue the whole thing up and polish it when finished. Make 2 halves and glue them in the middle.
I know of one major sound company that made horns this way for years. Mass is your friend here, since it overcomes any resonance of the device.
96khz, 32 bit bitdepth is about all that is cheaply available as a conversion device, check out the presonus firebox, or firepod as low cost a/d d/a. There are some more expensive ones, like motu for about 3 to 5 times the street price of 300 dollars (US) for the firebox.
You also have to have a 'rippin computer. The Lake company makes a crossover (for about 7000 dollars US) that includes risc processing, high sample rates, and is completely adjustable with crossover curves up to infinity, and a 100db of cut and boost at any frequency. It also time and phase corrects, you just have to know how to use it.
the faster your device the sweeter the sound. Most commercial companies are taking this route, since they can "cheat" physics and create horns that are shorter, and fit into a "commercial"enclosure. JBL is one, which is why they partnered with Crown.
Metal horns produce glistening highs, which is really nice, wooden horns have a more mellow sound, which is great for near field listening. You could create a wooden horn buy using slabs of wood cut from templates made in any 3d program, glue the whole thing up and polish it when finished. Make 2 halves and glue them in the middle.
I know of one major sound company that made horns this way for years. Mass is your friend here, since it overcomes any resonance of the device.
96khz, 32 bit bitdepth is about all that is cheaply available as a conversion device, check out the presonus firebox, or firepod as low cost a/d d/a. There are some more expensive ones, like motu for about 3 to 5 times the street price of 300 dollars (US) for the firebox.
You also have to have a 'rippin computer. The Lake company makes a crossover (for about 7000 dollars US) that includes risc processing, high sample rates, and is completely adjustable with crossover curves up to infinity, and a 100db of cut and boost at any frequency. It also time and phase corrects, you just have to know how to use it.
This isn't quite what I had in mind but you'll get the general idea:
Solar Powered Steel Horn
I'd say that the claim of incredible dynamics and concert volume levels may be suspect but the construction method is along the lines of what I had in mind.
The caption at the site this was linked from states that this speaker/scultpure is some 12 feet tall. Looks a bit unstable.
Solar Powered Steel Horn
I'd say that the claim of incredible dynamics and concert volume levels may be suspect but the construction method is along the lines of what I had in mind.
The caption at the site this was linked from states that this speaker/scultpure is some 12 feet tall. Looks a bit unstable.
I love those crazy horns! And he's using solar powered T-Amps, just like me. 🙂
Got to drop them a line.
Got to drop them a line.
lost the thread
wow, those things are really sculptural and pretty freaky looking. interesting concept, but I have some misgivings about the amount of power the smallish solar array can supply. Even with a very efficient speaker (106db@1 meter/watt) you need about 1500 watts to even approach "concert levels" This device rolls off at 6 db for a doubling in distance, so at 2 meters you would need 4 watts, etc until you were at a reasonable distance, say 32 meters would require 750 watts for 106db, and 1500 for 109, which is normal for a concert these days.
if you had any losses due to inefficiency say 30% the array would have to put out about 15 amps 110v. If you could do that with an array that small (on earth) I'm sure we'd all have them by now.
very cool design, the actual highs horn looks like a "potato masher" of jbl 1970's fame. Pretty long low end track, have to wonder how the whole thing sounds. could be cool for background music at a park if they had a wireless setup to distribute the audio.
this group is great
pesky
wow, those things are really sculptural and pretty freaky looking. interesting concept, but I have some misgivings about the amount of power the smallish solar array can supply. Even with a very efficient speaker (106db@1 meter/watt) you need about 1500 watts to even approach "concert levels" This device rolls off at 6 db for a doubling in distance, so at 2 meters you would need 4 watts, etc until you were at a reasonable distance, say 32 meters would require 750 watts for 106db, and 1500 for 109, which is normal for a concert these days.
if you had any losses due to inefficiency say 30% the array would have to put out about 15 amps 110v. If you could do that with an array that small (on earth) I'm sure we'd all have them by now.
very cool design, the actual highs horn looks like a "potato masher" of jbl 1970's fame. Pretty long low end track, have to wonder how the whole thing sounds. could be cool for background music at a park if they had a wireless setup to distribute the audio.
this group is great
pesky
And those things would be fairly weather proof with the Hi horn inclined down. Just the thing for my beer garden.
I've made several attempts to contact the metal horns guys. Even tracked down who owns the site. Alas, no reply - so far. 🙁
Just dont lay a full bead, do lots of small welds like tacks and use glue for the rest. I would advise against aluminum because it is hard to work with unless you are a very good tig welder. I would say just take your time and whatever you do don't heat the metal up much.
edit: unless you take advantage of curves then you won't have warping problems.
edit: unless you take advantage of curves then you won't have warping problems.
I have the woodworking ability of a kumquat, but I'm quite skilled at silver-soldering. (I.E, with jewelry solder, not normal solder. This requires an acetylene torch - I prefer an oxy-acetylene torch, as with high-temperature solder you're fusing the metal more than anything else, and you get a really, really strong bond.)
How thick would I need the metal to be for a PAWO horn?
http://www.audio-resolution.com/zhorn/fr125s.html
Also, I was thinking about using acrylic for the front and back panels, with the exception of the "chamber" into which the speaker fires. (The top part). Would this work?
How thick would I need the metal to be for a PAWO horn?
http://www.audio-resolution.com/zhorn/fr125s.html
Also, I was thinking about using acrylic for the front and back panels, with the exception of the "chamber" into which the speaker fires. (The top part). Would this work?
questions of damping, rattling, and hum
one of the beauties of wood as a speaker enclosure material, is that it doesn't rattle or hum for a weight that would be equivalent to that of metal. If you're not concerned with weight, making parts of metal or plastic is fine, as they are very stiff. the chamber surrounding the speaker would be the most critical area to make sure that it was not moving in response to the speaker motion. The horn track, which is really most of the project, isn't as critical in terms of stiffness since it can be damped with something if vibration becomes a problem. Since the "chamber" area of the horn is at the top, balancing the whole will be tricky. If you substituted 1/4" aluminum for the wood, and 5/8" plastic (again the choice of material will affect the sound, abs or pvc is much softer than lexan or acrylic. the lexan is nice as it's the stiffest and least likely break ) where you wanted it would probably work, but again you may have to go back and dampen the panels with rubber, as well as some sort of batting, like cotton or fiberglass in the chamber area.
we used to test the enclosure's sound by tapping on all the flat surfaces with a rubber mallet, and expected it to sound "dead" and about the same tone all the way through. the horn track looks to provide a lot of bracing, so this area will be easy. If you made the sides out of metal, and the front and back from plastic, you could likely screw the whole thing together by drilling and tapping the metal to accept flat head (or your favorite flavor) machine screws. It's the chamber/stuffing combination that will be tricky. remember to use silicone or some gap filling adhesive so the thing is airtight.
The tonality of wood is generally considered more pleasant than that of metal or plastic. for a biradial or other highs horn devices metal makes sparkly highs. these highs may be transmitted more readily through the low end track, due to the harder surfaces. Plastic tends to "wonk", ask anyone who has used fiberglass horns. It is much more difficult to make sound "dead"
I can appreciate the aesthetic though, and wish you the best
pesky
one of the beauties of wood as a speaker enclosure material, is that it doesn't rattle or hum for a weight that would be equivalent to that of metal. If you're not concerned with weight, making parts of metal or plastic is fine, as they are very stiff. the chamber surrounding the speaker would be the most critical area to make sure that it was not moving in response to the speaker motion. The horn track, which is really most of the project, isn't as critical in terms of stiffness since it can be damped with something if vibration becomes a problem. Since the "chamber" area of the horn is at the top, balancing the whole will be tricky. If you substituted 1/4" aluminum for the wood, and 5/8" plastic (again the choice of material will affect the sound, abs or pvc is much softer than lexan or acrylic. the lexan is nice as it's the stiffest and least likely break ) where you wanted it would probably work, but again you may have to go back and dampen the panels with rubber, as well as some sort of batting, like cotton or fiberglass in the chamber area.
we used to test the enclosure's sound by tapping on all the flat surfaces with a rubber mallet, and expected it to sound "dead" and about the same tone all the way through. the horn track looks to provide a lot of bracing, so this area will be easy. If you made the sides out of metal, and the front and back from plastic, you could likely screw the whole thing together by drilling and tapping the metal to accept flat head (or your favorite flavor) machine screws. It's the chamber/stuffing combination that will be tricky. remember to use silicone or some gap filling adhesive so the thing is airtight.
The tonality of wood is generally considered more pleasant than that of metal or plastic. for a biradial or other highs horn devices metal makes sparkly highs. these highs may be transmitted more readily through the low end track, due to the harder surfaces. Plastic tends to "wonk", ask anyone who has used fiberglass horns. It is much more difficult to make sound "dead"
I can appreciate the aesthetic though, and wish you the best
pesky
Re: questions of damping, rattling, and hum
I have 1/8" thick Lexan. I was thinking of sandwiching some copper sheet between 1/8" sheets of Lexan, which should look very nice and damp vibrations well. I'll have to try it out.
I was wondering, though, how thick the metal should be if I am to only use sheet metal for construction. Copper is very dense, and resonates very little in thick sheets, but it costs a mint. Aluminum is inexpensive, but hard to work with. Steel is not too hard to work with and cheap - odds are, it's what I'll be using.
As a side note, remember that making curves out of metal is very easy with the correct tools.
pesky said:
I have 1/8" thick Lexan. I was thinking of sandwiching some copper sheet between 1/8" sheets of Lexan, which should look very nice and damp vibrations well. I'll have to try it out.
I was wondering, though, how thick the metal should be if I am to only use sheet metal for construction. Copper is very dense, and resonates very little in thick sheets, but it costs a mint. Aluminum is inexpensive, but hard to work with. Steel is not too hard to work with and cheap - odds are, it's what I'll be using.
As a side note, remember that making curves out of metal is very easy with the correct tools.
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