The measurements we identify with amps are not related to the subjective musical perception we humans crave.
If we follow the instruments, Nigel is correct, if we follow the subjectivity from Terry, he is correct. How can we objectify the subjective?
If a car is painted red does it go faster? Could it be that we are measuring the wrong things? Besides, musical is polytonal and hugely dynamic, not like a 1KHz sine wave. I vote for Bora.......
Hugh
If we follow the instruments, Nigel is correct, if we follow the subjectivity from Terry, he is correct. How can we objectify the subjective?
If a car is painted red does it go faster? Could it be that we are measuring the wrong things? Besides, musical is polytonal and hugely dynamic, not like a 1KHz sine wave. I vote for Bora.......
Hugh
Most like to see how super pure a circuit gets at normal levels ... bragging on the PPM@ X khz. 🙄
There are other metrics to consider. I've clipped some tube models - observed
harmonics. Cool ... nearly self clamping and the odd harmonics are not dominant.
Tried to copy this with a few of my SS VAS's (below). I try for a rounded overdriven
signal. The typical saturation or "sticking" burns out zobel networks and sounds
like poop.
PS -plot is not just a simulation , the real amp also performs like this(thimios).
People DO party with their amps - so this aspect must be considered. 😀
OS
There are other metrics to consider. I've clipped some tube models - observed
harmonics. Cool ... nearly self clamping and the odd harmonics are not dominant.
Tried to copy this with a few of my SS VAS's (below). I try for a rounded overdriven
signal. The typical saturation or "sticking" burns out zobel networks and sounds
like poop.
PS -plot is not just a simulation , the real amp also performs like this(thimios).
People DO party with their amps - so this aspect must be considered. 😀
OS
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Ah!!! but tubes can run red hot and still work ... try that with transistors. 😱
😀 😛
Oh god... they started already. This will be a long thread...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
'Afraid so. There are about three or four main topics here that get recycled ad infinitum.
This is one of those sacred audiophile topics that demonstrate why there need to be separate
forums for vacuum and solid state or take up the matter in the neutral territory of the lounge (again).
Of course, any chance for poking fun at the other guys has to be seized upon.
😀This thread isn't about that - it's about actual physical measurements - where solid state absolutely wipes the floor with valves.
As far as subjective opinions go, it's rather like religion, entirely fictional but there are still people out there who believe despite any shred of evidence 😛
If you like the sound of a valve amp, then go for it - there were many decent sounding valve amps in the distant past (I used to have a valve Leak system years ago) - but I'd rather have the more accurate reproduction of solid state, and not have to wait for it to warm up 😀
Another problem now of course is that no one makes decent quality valves 🙁
From this paper "For example, Fastl reported
that a train painted in red was perceived as being 20%
louder than the same train painted in green"
We have innumerable examples where good looking expensive amplifiers are perceived as better sounding than cheap ugly ones that perform objectively better. Maybe tubes will always win the subjective sound contest because they are expensive and pretty to look at.
I personally have a tube amplifier in my living room because I like the look of it, even though I built a couple of solid-state ones that outperform it massively.
Discussion of religion is off-limits even in the Lounge. That includes, I assume, casual dismissal of all faiths.Nigel Goodwin said:
SS absolutely wins when it comes to lower costs and robustness.
Tubes are an eye catcher, something SS will never be. Performance
depends on technical solutions.
I am sure there are excellent tube amps out there. I would certainly
always prefer to have an Audio Research Reference 750 over a 10W
single chip based amplifier and I am sure tubes would sweep the floor
with SS in this case.
Tubes are an eye catcher, something SS will never be. Performance
depends on technical solutions.
I am sure there are excellent tube amps out there. I would certainly
always prefer to have an Audio Research Reference 750 over a 10W
single chip based amplifier and I am sure tubes would sweep the floor
with SS in this case.
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Sorry, but I find that absolutely bizarre 😀
What's 'eye catching' about a valve amp? - I know there's this completely stupid modern idea of mounting the valves externally, but as someone who comes from the valve era it just looks stupid 😛
Apart from obvious size considerations there's no reason why they couldn't use exactly the same case and styling, and look absolutely identical.
Yes. I hide my valves inside a fairly boring black Hammond chassis cover. My amp is designed to be heard and not seen. That is, the music is to be heard but hopefully not the amp itself.
This is a monoblock design, so you'll need two 🙂
As someone who doesn't come from the valve era I think it looks great. And I don't see any real reason to use tubes over solid-state besides looks.
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I also was about in the valve era..however I find it difficult to design SE amps with large pentodes or something like KT88 inside a chassis..then again I don't remember 845 or 211 amps inside a case either..I think you would have a problem with 6C33C OTL as well.
Just on reflection my wife doesn't like HIFI or should I say she doesn't see the importance of it..😀..however she says the OTL is the most musical amp she has listened to..
Regards
M. Gregg
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In a company of a beautiful woman with a valve amp glowing
in the dark, romantic music on, something that can't be beaten
by a SS design. My male cold logic says, don't be an idiot,
tubes work!😀
in the dark, romantic music on, something that can't be beaten
by a SS design. My male cold logic says, don't be an idiot,
tubes work!😀
Please explain why external valve/tube mounting is in any way "stupid" as compared to internal mounting.
While you are formulating your answer, please try to address the following.
- External vs. internal mounting of tubes has no effect on the sound of the amplifier
- Externally mounted tubes do not contribute heat to the inside of the chassis, potentially extending the life of other components and connections
- Externally mounted tubes are far easier to replace, regardless of how often one replaces (or "rolls") their tubes
- Externally mounted tubes can be protected with a removable cage, which prevents damage to the tubes and to any children or cats in the vicinity
- If the "looks" of your amplifier are truly unimportant to you, then the matter of external or internal mounting of tubes "looking stupid" is 100% irrelevant
I look forward to your explanation of why externally mounted tubes are "stupid".
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Now this, my friends, is far from stupid! 🙂
P.S. Keep in mind that some of the posters in this current thread might not be all that familiar with the experience you are describing. Some parts of the world are better blessed with beautiful women than others. 😉
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Because you're pointlessly exposing fragile and hot glass bottles to where they are much more likely to get broken - and presumably only because you seem to think it 'looks good' 😀 (which point I would disagree with).
The classic valve amps used separate preamps and poweramps, so the poweramps could be hidden out of the way (and kept safe) - such as the Leak Varioslope preamp and TL12 amplifiers that I used to have - which looks remarkably similar to the Stereo 70 I replaced it with 😀
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