I have taken a number of off the shelf drivers over the years . Experimented with different designs before there were any computer programs . I found using the Fried design principles work.
Wable test tone and spl meter measurements are facts
Listening is the final proof..
If I want to build a two way I will use 8' driver in a 10.5 wide cabinet. Have the tweeter below it to one side.The woofer is at the top of the enclosue.. There is no baffle above it except about 1.25"
I never measured the drivers without a crossover in the enclosures.
Wable test tone and spl meter measurements are facts
Listening is the final proof..
If I want to build a two way I will use 8' driver in a 10.5 wide cabinet. Have the tweeter below it to one side.The woofer is at the top of the enclosue.. There is no baffle above it except about 1.25"
I never measured the drivers without a crossover in the enclosures.
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For the sake of being able to accurately discuss the intricate details and specific minor differences between different types of similar crossovers (based on personal experience and not just theory), this thread pretty much ends here.
I am not attacking what you've done, nor you, nor your methods. What I am saying, is that if you have not done some of the most basic and fundamental initial measurements that are necessary to ensure accurate simulations and then accurate end results, then you cannot really draw any comparisons or conclusions that would be in any way scientifically valid and that's what people are after here.
Has anyone heard any of the companies most recent designs like their reference model.
I have tried to make the time to answer every question
.
Most of my questions have not been answered. It goes both ways. I was glad to find out from Wolf-teeth no one else has any of the AES papers. I wish I had purchased the book compialation. I will try and post some design formulas that I found didi not work by trying them. Just to show Zeta examples. They were in Speaker Builder in the early 80's
Have any forum users heard the last model of satellite and subwoofers that use the composite cones ?.
The new company if they are still in busines does not because of what happened to the ownership of the plans.
I found these designs do work. There a few constant denominators in all the 8ohm designs and 4 ohm designs. R2 is always the same value for all 8ohm. It is the key to getting the constant voltage. Most people are not looking at how the crossover works. They are to accustomed to parallel crossover circuits.
I have tried to make the time to answer every question
.
Most of my questions have not been answered. It goes both ways. I was glad to find out from Wolf-teeth no one else has any of the AES papers. I wish I had purchased the book compialation. I will try and post some design formulas that I found didi not work by trying them. Just to show Zeta examples. They were in Speaker Builder in the early 80's
Have any forum users heard the last model of satellite and subwoofers that use the composite cones ?.
The new company if they are still in busines does not because of what happened to the ownership of the plans.
I found these designs do work. There a few constant denominators in all the 8ohm designs and 4 ohm designs. R2 is always the same value for all 8ohm. It is the key to getting the constant voltage. Most people are not looking at how the crossover works. They are to accustomed to parallel crossover circuits.
Look at the forum users response about voice coil inductance and transient response.
Some links are not current. Are you experts or hypocrites., Remember Strangiato his resume was much higher then most forum users.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/27810-voice-coil-inductance-vs-transient-response-2.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/27810-voice-coil-inductance-vs-transient-response.html
It would seem a certain a group of people are the experts and other forum users know nothing.
I guess I will have to make a list of my many unanswered questions and PM each forum user that have posted till I get a response. Maybe I wiil visit one of the fests and we can all get to meet each other.
Some links are not current. Are you experts or hypocrites., Remember Strangiato his resume was much higher then most forum users.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/27810-voice-coil-inductance-vs-transient-response-2.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/27810-voice-coil-inductance-vs-transient-response.html
It would seem a certain a group of people are the experts and other forum users know nothing.
I guess I will have to make a list of my many unanswered questions and PM each forum user that have posted till I get a response. Maybe I wiil visit one of the fests and we can all get to meet each other.
Yes, we now have 3 separate, reasonably active series xover threads. Perhaps a mod should consider consolidating them into one. In that way we won't have the same questions and arguments starting all over again.
I am asked if there ia a secondary coil. How many times do I have to write the number of components in the crossover. It leads me to believe people asking questions don't know what the schematic of one loooks like.
If I had time I would love to hear the many speakers at one of the fests.
If I had time I would love to hear the many speakers at one of the fests.
I think without using a computer program very few people would be able to design anything.
It is undersstanding the theory that derives the formulas.
I have posted links that is just marketing hype ha.
Most people that got into this hobby read every publication they could. Any one can purchase a program to desisgn crossovers. That does not make them an expert.
It is undersstanding the theory that derives the formulas.
I have posted links that is just marketing hype ha.
Most people that got into this hobby read every publication they could. Any one can purchase a program to desisgn crossovers. That does not make them an expert.
What's your point?
Kevin Voecks said:
Source - Kevin Voecks: Loudspeakers, Crossovers, & Rooms Page 3 | Stereophile.com
Even with a program, if you don't know what you're doing, it'll still be bad.
I'm still having a really hard time reading and understanding most of what you're talking about, no offense.
What does the woofer voice inductance tell us about the woofer?
What does the tweeter voice coil inductance tell us about the tweeter?
What does the tweeter voice coil inductance tell us about the tweeter?
I don't think that has an awful lot to do with series crossovers, but FWIW it is obvious that a low inductance extends frequency response. As does higher resistance, whether in the drive unit itself or the driving circuit and crossover. It is no coincidence that the tweeters with the most extended frequency response have inductance of the order of 0.01mH. As do Fostex fullrange units which are a lowish 0.05mH.
Valve amplifiers extend frequency response by virtue of their 6 ohm output impedance, though people seem to miss the trick of putting that 6 ohms in the crossover input with voltage amplifiers. The price you pay for extended and smooth frequency response is always efficiency. The smoothest speakers are inefficient. Efficient ones are coloured. And I should add that an element of self-damping in a speaker is a virtue, which is why ringing metal cones are such a nightmare.
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speakerman - ""I think without using a computer program very few people would be able to design anything.""
RockLee - ""What's your point?""
It would be helpful to read the thread before posting... if you'll carefully read the thread I think it will become apparent that speakerman's reference to using a computer program is in response to those in the thread that are giving him a hard time about not using a computer program.
RockLee - ""What's your point?""
It would be helpful to read the thread before posting... if you'll carefully read the thread I think it will become apparent that speakerman's reference to using a computer program is in response to those in the thread that are giving him a hard time about not using a computer program.
Forget about the tweeters high end response for the moment.
All the research on 1st order series crossovers is the foundation of series crossover design.
It is all based on woofer inductance and tweeter inductance in determining the crossover frequencies used in the design. L1 and C1 are not at the same frequency.
Using a L1 value of 1.27 mh and C1 vakue of 19.9 mfd.for 1000hz are text book examples. A Q of .5 and Zeta of 2 will fry the tweeters crossing them over at 1000 hz in a 8ohm design at high spl..
All the research on 1st order series crossovers is the foundation of series crossover design.
It is all based on woofer inductance and tweeter inductance in determining the crossover frequencies used in the design. L1 and C1 are not at the same frequency.
Using a L1 value of 1.27 mh and C1 vakue of 19.9 mfd.for 1000hz are text book examples. A Q of .5 and Zeta of 2 will fry the tweeters crossing them over at 1000 hz in a 8ohm design at high spl..
This is starting to resemble Hawking, Susskind and VanT'Hooft at the famous Hawking lecture about Black Hole entropy...😀
Only three people in the room actually understood the implications. 🙂
Before I wade through the math, do you know the answer? You've obviously got to keep ALL the Q's in the circuit below 0.5 to keep it stable using resistors, yes? Or at least keep the resonances comfortably seperate.
Incidentally, 1kHz is a ROTTEN frequency to start out with. 2.5 or 3kHz would be much more realistic. 😀
(6 ohms based on zero-feedback, Dave. You can do what you like with feedback.)
Only three people in the room actually understood the implications. 🙂
Before I wade through the math, do you know the answer? You've obviously got to keep ALL the Q's in the circuit below 0.5 to keep it stable using resistors, yes? Or at least keep the resonances comfortably seperate.
Incidentally, 1kHz is a ROTTEN frequency to start out with. 2.5 or 3kHz would be much more realistic. 😀
(6 ohms based on zero-feedback, Dave. You can do what you like with feedback.)
It is unfortunate that a typical tweeter XO is right where the ear is most sensitive... i like to keep my XOs 100-400 Hz (and anything under 200 line level) where XOs are less evil.
dave
Yup, there seems to be a lot to be said for a midrange that runs from 500Hz to 5000Hz. But this is not getting near the "Mystery of the Series Crossover"! 🙂
I think I know how to do the transfer functions for the second-order and third order series circuits now. They need resistors, I reckon. I'm hoping we can get decent rolloff rates while keeping the zero-group delay. I'll look at it this weekend.
But don't third order butterworths and fourth order linkwitz-Riley do clever stuff too? Time will tell. This is actually quite exciting. Hate that Zeta business though. No-one uses Zeta in serious network analysis.
I think I know how to do the transfer functions for the second-order and third order series circuits now. They need resistors, I reckon. I'm hoping we can get decent rolloff rates while keeping the zero-group delay. I'll look at it this weekend.
But don't third order butterworths and fourth order linkwitz-Riley do clever stuff too? Time will tell. This is actually quite exciting. Hate that Zeta business though. No-one uses Zeta in serious network analysis.
System7 go back to my prior posts. R1 and R2. are the keystone to coin a phrase. I am not trying to put anyone down . I have stated the design parameters. If people do not understand ?
Using the C1 values of do not work they are close not as close the design parameters I gave. C1 = tweeter inductance frequency. L1 values may or may work depending on the woofer inductance frequency.
L1 = 1.27mh C1= 19.9 mfd at 1000hz
L1=. 63mh C1 = 9.9 mfd at 2000hz
L1= .42 mh C1 = 6.6 mfd at 3000hz
L1 = .31 mh C1 = 4.9 mfd at 4000hz
Using the C1 values of do not work they are close not as close the design parameters I gave. C1 = tweeter inductance frequency. L1 values may or may work depending on the woofer inductance frequency.
L1 = 1.27mh C1= 19.9 mfd at 1000hz
L1=. 63mh C1 = 9.9 mfd at 2000hz
L1= .42 mh C1 = 6.6 mfd at 3000hz
L1 = .31 mh C1 = 4.9 mfd at 4000hz
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