Sounds good, the 816 is a proven cabinet and as I remember it can get down to 40Htz with the right driver. You may want to consider a crossover freq of 800 or 500Htz, as Altec did. You will be able to get more clean low end out of it. Just make sure the horn driver can handle a crossover point that low. IMO that midrange area sounds better from a horn anyway. Have Fun!
Thats debatable.
if so,then hornloaded woofers would need even more power with your reasoning
'loaded' woofers arent harder to move,they just move more air -more efficient-
The impedence mismatch between 'HARD' woofer and 'soft' air results in 1-2% efficiencies unless hornloading is used.
Re: porting
I would consider a subsonic filter to prevent Djs destroying your vented subs.
Id also consider dedicated midbass subs ,keeping bass SPL high,while keeping the mainspeakers from attempting to produce bass+ midrange and distorting and smearing the vocals at high SPL.
Cheers!
Good points, I was actually comapring sealed infinite baffle vs. direct radiating ported construction. Horn loading is indeed it's own beast. 🙂
I’m just going to throw the cat amongst the pigeons and say that you need to seriously consider what your needs are first, and then move on to the practicalities of putting those plans into practice within your financial constraints. If you are looking at live sound/Dance Music, the advice on a 2k rig (meaning proper PA cabs averaging around 100dB efficiency) seems about right. A budget PA system consisting of a 2x 1kW amp driving some double 15 or 18 cabs and a 2x500W amp for some 12”/1” Tops is probably a good starting point. You might want to extend the system to 4 Tops later though.
A very important consideration is that you’d likely want to mount these speakers above head-height. This leaves you with two options: speaker on a stick (stand, preferably a pole connecting the sub to the top) or the more professional option of flying the tops. Unfortunately the flying route leaves you little choice other than to go the used PA-cab route and certified rigging, as you are liable for any accidents (PA cabs falling on people’s heads)
You might want to have a look at a German PA forum’s low budget 1kW stack, which is a double 10”/1” compression driver top and a double 15 Sub and has been warmly received as a good, loud and cost-effective system. The link is to the source for the Top http://www.pm-fairsand.de/malareen//shop/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=303&osC. You could probably find a cost-effective 15/18 Selenium or similar driver, though P.Audio comes highly recommended amongst value-oriented brands if you can get your hands on them.
A Loudspeaker Management System such as the Behringer Ultradrive will not only provide the active crossover functionality and clean up the mids when you start pushing the system, but its limiters (get someone with experience in setting up limiters properly) will also protect the speakers from over-zealous DJs, who would otherwise routinely shoot down your tweeters, a costly exercise. And no, piezos mated to a 15 of all things are definitely not on.
Lastly think of the environment your club would present your equipment. Quite likely domestic grade stuff wouldn’t last very long and money is well spent on a 19” rack and kit to go in there.
Links : www.speakerplans.com , speaker designs by Rog Mogale
Just to get an indication, what sort of budget are you looking at?
A very important consideration is that you’d likely want to mount these speakers above head-height. This leaves you with two options: speaker on a stick (stand, preferably a pole connecting the sub to the top) or the more professional option of flying the tops. Unfortunately the flying route leaves you little choice other than to go the used PA-cab route and certified rigging, as you are liable for any accidents (PA cabs falling on people’s heads)
You might want to have a look at a German PA forum’s low budget 1kW stack, which is a double 10”/1” compression driver top and a double 15 Sub and has been warmly received as a good, loud and cost-effective system. The link is to the source for the Top http://www.pm-fairsand.de/malareen//shop/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=303&osC. You could probably find a cost-effective 15/18 Selenium or similar driver, though P.Audio comes highly recommended amongst value-oriented brands if you can get your hands on them.
A Loudspeaker Management System such as the Behringer Ultradrive will not only provide the active crossover functionality and clean up the mids when you start pushing the system, but its limiters (get someone with experience in setting up limiters properly) will also protect the speakers from over-zealous DJs, who would otherwise routinely shoot down your tweeters, a costly exercise. And no, piezos mated to a 15 of all things are definitely not on.
Lastly think of the environment your club would present your equipment. Quite likely domestic grade stuff wouldn’t last very long and money is well spent on a 19” rack and kit to go in there.
Links : www.speakerplans.com , speaker designs by Rog Mogale
Just to get an indication, what sort of budget are you looking at?
Ok so how does this sound?
I use an active crossover and send lows to 2 stereo amplifiers at 300W per chanel... so Id'd have 1200W for punch, and then use a mono amp at 300W for mids and another 300W for say... from 1k or 2k up. On the lows run dual 15" per channel (so 8 15" speakers) on the mids maybe 4 10" speakers, and 4 drivers and piezos. so I'd have a 1.8k rig that is triamped (actually 4) anyways, what do you think of this?
I use an active crossover and send lows to 2 stereo amplifiers at 300W per chanel... so Id'd have 1200W for punch, and then use a mono amp at 300W for mids and another 300W for say... from 1k or 2k up. On the lows run dual 15" per channel (so 8 15" speakers) on the mids maybe 4 10" speakers, and 4 drivers and piezos. so I'd have a 1.8k rig that is triamped (actually 4) anyways, what do you think of this?
Piezos are bad period. They might seem attractive to you given their price, but even if you know what you're doing, by the time you need a super tweeter they won't be loud enough anyways.
12" Mid Bass (eg. P.Audio SN-12MB, or C12-300MB, or many others) 1" or 1.5" Compression driver on a horn which wil get you all the way up to 16-18k. The Subs are up to you, but rather run them mono and the tops stereo.
In stead of going for all-out cheap speakers, get a smaller number, but therefore decent sounding speakers. Most good double 15/18s would soak up 1.2kW all night without even breaking into a sweat whereas a stack of cheapies might well end up smoked and nobody likes dead speakers in a club. It really is worth your money in the mid-long run to invest a little more money in decent speakers that are up to the task, even if you have to start with a pair of good 15" tops crossed to a good driver and horn and extend the system at a later stage. Eminence have some interresting speakers as well that might be available in your area.
Look around for reputable speaker manufacturers that you have access to locally and some ppl on the forum or I can make some recommendations based on what's available. (or send me a mail too, because I don't get too much time on the forums these days)
Going active gives you so much more flexibility, but don't forget that you have to ensure your tweeters NEVER see any DC or turn on/off noises from the amps, which is the first reason why one uses pro-sound amps, which are usually also protocted from short-circuits, over-current and thermal overload.
Cheers
Martin
12" Mid Bass (eg. P.Audio SN-12MB, or C12-300MB, or many others) 1" or 1.5" Compression driver on a horn which wil get you all the way up to 16-18k. The Subs are up to you, but rather run them mono and the tops stereo.
In stead of going for all-out cheap speakers, get a smaller number, but therefore decent sounding speakers. Most good double 15/18s would soak up 1.2kW all night without even breaking into a sweat whereas a stack of cheapies might well end up smoked and nobody likes dead speakers in a club. It really is worth your money in the mid-long run to invest a little more money in decent speakers that are up to the task, even if you have to start with a pair of good 15" tops crossed to a good driver and horn and extend the system at a later stage. Eminence have some interresting speakers as well that might be available in your area.
Look around for reputable speaker manufacturers that you have access to locally and some ppl on the forum or I can make some recommendations based on what's available. (or send me a mail too, because I don't get too much time on the forums these days)
Going active gives you so much more flexibility, but don't forget that you have to ensure your tweeters NEVER see any DC or turn on/off noises from the amps, which is the first reason why one uses pro-sound amps, which are usually also protocted from short-circuits, over-current and thermal overload.
Cheers
Martin
I will add some more food for thought:
A nightclub PA will be used with at least the following sources: CD, vinyl and microphone. So you have a really wide dynamic range to deal with. The DJ will be spinning one record and shouting things into a microphone.
If the venue is suited for it, you should get DI boxes for the occasional live band or some other type of thing that requires sound reinforcement. I'll bet you do at least one Halloween costume contest and/or Talent Idol show in the next year.
DJs almost always turn up the bass on their console to levels that distort so adding some limiters may save you a lot of grief. Trust me on this, half the DJs out there don't know anything about levels. I actually suggest a "hidden" monitor system aimed at the DJ position and turned up at least 3dB over the house so that can set the levels to "perfectly" loud. Do not let anyone have access to the gain on your house amps. If so, you might as well pre-pay for a spare rack and a few extra cabs.
How much power will your amps actually draw? Do you have enough electrical outlet power for them. Club-kids really hate it when the sound cuts out because of circuit breaker.
Finally, don't forget to design around 1/4, 1/2 and SRO crowd sizes. Human bodies are quite good are screwing around with your perfectly tuned system.
🙂ensen.
A nightclub PA will be used with at least the following sources: CD, vinyl and microphone. So you have a really wide dynamic range to deal with. The DJ will be spinning one record and shouting things into a microphone.
If the venue is suited for it, you should get DI boxes for the occasional live band or some other type of thing that requires sound reinforcement. I'll bet you do at least one Halloween costume contest and/or Talent Idol show in the next year.
DJs almost always turn up the bass on their console to levels that distort so adding some limiters may save you a lot of grief. Trust me on this, half the DJs out there don't know anything about levels. I actually suggest a "hidden" monitor system aimed at the DJ position and turned up at least 3dB over the house so that can set the levels to "perfectly" loud. Do not let anyone have access to the gain on your house amps. If so, you might as well pre-pay for a spare rack and a few extra cabs.
How much power will your amps actually draw? Do you have enough electrical outlet power for them. Club-kids really hate it when the sound cuts out because of circuit breaker.
Finally, don't forget to design around 1/4, 1/2 and SRO crowd sizes. Human bodies are quite good are screwing around with your perfectly tuned system.
🙂ensen.
Yeah I know about the human bodies messing up sound from a time when I used to help with the audio for some plays... anyways, thank you imix500, mgoedeke and purplepeople and those who posted before. The 15" woofers will not be that high power (150 - 300 peak) but the amp will give each one that 150W and if it peaks ar more the speakers should go with it, for 50U$D I can get some nice woofers like that which even have cast metal baskets and good magnets.
Anyways I was asking around and I can probably get a dj when I open the club who will bring his own equipment for next to nothing... so I might be able to use my equipment when I want to run it and have whatever ******* DJ ruin his own stuff.
What I would like to know is, do I need a midrange or can I get away with the driver and a good tweeter?
Also I can get a pair of jbl 2420 tweeters for a resonable amount, but these are 40W, will this be ok if I dont triamp and simply hook a 15" a driver and a tweeter?
In other words... Only considering 1 channel on 1 amp
lets say the amp gives me 300W @2ohms, 150W @4ohms, 75W @8ohms ROUGHLY.... I know its not exactly like that, the only sure figure is 300W @2ohms. So... Lets say 2 15" W at 4ohms each & 150W (so 300W at 2Ohms) A driver at 8Ohms (What Wattage!?!) and a tweeter at 8 (What wattage??)
I ask this seemingly simple question because I have heard that only a small ammount of power goes into tweeters...
Thank you very much, also... this friend here who used to own an audio shop says that all these calcullations in theory are ok but in practice are of no use... and that he had a 100W amp with 16 components in parallel and he said it worked ok, his theory was that hooking stuff up in parallel didnt actually devide the speaker impedance... any thoughts on this? thank you, Jack
Anyways I was asking around and I can probably get a dj when I open the club who will bring his own equipment for next to nothing... so I might be able to use my equipment when I want to run it and have whatever ******* DJ ruin his own stuff.
What I would like to know is, do I need a midrange or can I get away with the driver and a good tweeter?
Also I can get a pair of jbl 2420 tweeters for a resonable amount, but these are 40W, will this be ok if I dont triamp and simply hook a 15" a driver and a tweeter?
In other words... Only considering 1 channel on 1 amp
lets say the amp gives me 300W @2ohms, 150W @4ohms, 75W @8ohms ROUGHLY.... I know its not exactly like that, the only sure figure is 300W @2ohms. So... Lets say 2 15" W at 4ohms each & 150W (so 300W at 2Ohms) A driver at 8Ohms (What Wattage!?!) and a tweeter at 8 (What wattage??)
I ask this seemingly simple question because I have heard that only a small ammount of power goes into tweeters...
Thank you very much, also... this friend here who used to own an audio shop says that all these calcullations in theory are ok but in practice are of no use... and that he had a 100W amp with 16 components in parallel and he said it worked ok, his theory was that hooking stuff up in parallel didnt actually devide the speaker impedance... any thoughts on this? thank you, Jack
Well, it does divide the impedance, just like wiring up resistors in parallel. Maybe he had them series-parallel so the sum was the same as 1 driver? A 15" and a horn would do great. For music cross them at 1.2K The 2420 is a great old driver, but as you said only rated 30w. Although 30w of power is considerable as those are high-ish effeciency drivers, chances are you will run out of headroom with high energy music and DJ's. Having a higher power driver is just good insurance, even if you never use all of it. If you can find some 2525's consider those. They are 60w as I rememeber. As it takes much less power for high freq's, 60w might just be enough. Many mid sized boxes out there have hf drivers under 100w. The crossover divides the power accordingly.
Ok thanks, but for tweeters other than those I will have to go with selenium, imagine everything imported here costs 3X as much... like a driver for 50U$D would cost me 150$ (a year ago it was 1:1, things havent returned to normal yet!) anyways thanks for the input, I'll look for something in that range.
Jeese, that's rough. Selenuim makes great horns for pro use. Also if they are available there rcf is really good too.
Well at least other things are really cheap, the problem is imported things... anyways, I bought some used A7 and 816 boxes (a pair of each) and I should be getting them soon, So I'll tell you how things are coming along, Thanks, Jack
Nice one
The second hand cab route often turns out to be a good move. Just don't forget that clipping your tops puts your tweeters at a very real risk of blowing and replacement diaphragms can end up costing you a fortune, so a limiter is definitely a good move. A Behringer Ultradrive DCX2496 Pro is most likely the cheapest optin which includes both limiter and crossover functionality which allows you to adjust for eq and would allow you to more easily extend the system with a sub should you need to.
And Selenium are a well respected manufacturer, more known over here for their compression drivers and horns, but they seem to have a decent lineup for most Pro-Audio needs.
The second hand cab route often turns out to be a good move. Just don't forget that clipping your tops puts your tweeters at a very real risk of blowing and replacement diaphragms can end up costing you a fortune, so a limiter is definitely a good move. A Behringer Ultradrive DCX2496 Pro is most likely the cheapest optin which includes both limiter and crossover functionality which allows you to adjust for eq and would allow you to more easily extend the system with a sub should you need to.
And Selenium are a well respected manufacturer, more known over here for their compression drivers and horns, but they seem to have a decent lineup for most Pro-Audio needs.
reply
A few things to say:
And in a 3 way split active system the bass drivers should be 400w-600w rms each, although in some extreme systems they are 700 - 1000 w rms each.
mids 300w -500w rms each
treble 40-100w rms each
And power the drivers with twice the power rms.
Put a passive HPF into the treble boxes to stop turn on/off transiet pops/thumps from blowing the tweeters.
Use the Eminence passive HPF filter as it features a tweeter protection circuit[light bulb and PTC resistor]!😎
A few things to say:
And in a 3 way split active system the bass drivers should be 400w-600w rms each, although in some extreme systems they are 700 - 1000 w rms each.
mids 300w -500w rms each
treble 40-100w rms each
And power the drivers with twice the power rms.
Put a passive HPF into the treble boxes to stop turn on/off transiet pops/thumps from blowing the tweeters.
Use the Eminence passive HPF filter as it features a tweeter protection circuit[light bulb and PTC resistor]!😎
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