Speaker wire ......... Why

[BillH]

How do the new speaker cables sound? First a look at the system.

The receiver is a Kenwood VR-407. It's running the main speakers directly and I'm using its mono subwoofer out to drive the woofers with a Harman Kardon Citation 12 at an unknown crossover frequency. The CD player is an Apex DVD player using the analog outs. It has a S/PDIF out, but never sounded as good as the analog connection.

The speakers are all DIY. The main speakers are dipoles 16"W x 21"H x 3-1/2"D and each have Herald (remember them?) 8" mid-woofers, Herald rebranded Bose 901 series 1 4-1/2" midranges, genuine Motorola piezo tweeters with a Herald 6db/octave crossover at 700 and 4500Hz. The midranges are padded down to match the mid-woofer and the tweeter has a resistor in parallel to raise the lower cutoff frequency and tame its harshness. The woofers are ripoles 9"W x 16"H x 16"D with 1 12" driver in each cabinet. The drivers were salvaged units. All wiring in the speakers and to the speakers was 18 gauge zip cord.

I've been happy with the whole system since I built the dipole/ripole speakers a couple of months ago. The ripole has great bass from such a small box, but has is suffering with a driver with low power handling and a resonance at about 50Hz. The next upgrade will be new drivers with more Xmax and a lower Q.

Test setup: 18' 18 gauge zip cord and 8' Cat5 speaker cable connected to receiver. DPDT switch connected to switch between zip cord and Cat5. Left speaker has Cat5 cable only connected. There's enough cable to get to the sweet spot in my chair and flick the switch.

I never expected quite such a difference. The Cat5 had a much wider soundstage while not changing the frequency balance at all. By going back and forth on the switch I could hear instruments move, too. With zip cord, everything moves toward the center of the soundstage. With Cat5, backup singers are to the right of center, rhythm guitar even farther right.

I'm convinced that cables do make a difference. At least these cables. 🙂

 

[PauSim]

Hi, BillH

Nice work. My second cat5s were also 4 runs per side. I opted for spiralling rather than braiding, but I confirm the sound you describe.

The receiver is not placed between the speakers, so the wire lengths are unequal.

I´m sorry to tell you this after you had so much work, but if the cables were of equal lengths per side they´d work better. Make another 8 foot cable or cut the existing one by half...

Cheers 🙂

Edit: Thanks for gauge calculator link

 

[BillH]

Thanks, PaulSim.

I've got the wires cut for another 8' cable and a 4' cable braided, but not finished. I had to try it out as soon as I could and the different cable geometry was an experiment.

PaulSim writes: I´m sorry to tell you this after you had so much work, but if the cables were of equal lengths per side they´d work better.

I had wondered about that. Right now the resistance and damping factor of the 2 cables is equal, but inductance and capacitance are different. Not sure how much sound difference that makes. I don't notice any coloration from one side to the other and they give a solid, centered image in mono.

 

[Madmike2]

I might be wrong but i didnt see what you had before you made these cables.

 

[planet10]

While you are trying this, try a single pair of wires -- best if you separate them. Did you get solid or standed Cat 6?

dave

 

[Madmike2]

I might be wrong but i didnt see what you had before you made these cables.

That made no sense at all. I meant you didnt mention what you were using before you made these cables.


edit <> never mind 18 gauge zip cord. its late and i am tired🙁

 

[Madmike2]

Which means you effectively doubled the surface area of the conductors. Bigger gauge is better, thats been established. I am going to bed before i pass out at the key board playing poker.

 

[planet10]

While you are trying this, try a single pair of wires -- best if you separate them. Did you get solid or standed Cat 5?

dave

 

[planet10]

Bigger gauge is better, thats been established.

I don't think that is true.

Bigger is better is just a mine is bigger than yours thing.

dave

 

[soongsc]

I don't think that is true.

Bigger is better is just a mine is bigger than yours thing.

dave

For home listening, I think I would not hear any improvement if I used my 1cm core diameter cables. But for systems that are taking few K watts running over 20 meters a run, maybe there will be a difference. I was looking at some band getting ready to play outdoors, they were using pretty big stuff.
🙂

 

[carlosfm]

I don't think that is true.

Bigger is better is just a mine is bigger than yours thing.

dave

😀 😀 😀
Like speakers: some think they have to be biiig.

 

[Madmike2]

Well i played around and after i got to thicker heavier gauge wire there was no longer a difference in the sound.

 

[BillH]

planet10 asks: Did you get solid or standed Cat 5?

It is solid.

One interesting aspect of my cable test was the fact that I could not hear the difference between cables until I setup the A-B switch.

When I physically changed from zip cords to Cat5 on both speakers, I did not hear the difference. I guess my memory of the sound was not good enough between cable changes. Using the switch, though the difference was quite apparent. I had to go back and check my wiring, I thought I had something out of phase or a bad connection. The zip cord sounded that bad.

 

[SY]

Rapid switching is often derided, but the reality is that (at least for most of us) it is the most sensitive technique for determining audibility.

 

[carlosfm]

It is solid.

The best.

One interesting aspect of my cable test was the fact that I could not hear the difference between cables until I setup the A-B switch.

I hope nobody gets me wrong for saying this, but that is true for the untrained ear.
And let's not discuss A-B tests and blind tests here, ok?😀

When I physically changed from zip cords to Cat5 on both speakers, I did not hear the difference. I guess my memory of the sound was not good enough between cable changes. Using the switch, though the difference was quite apparent. I had to go back and check my wiring, I thought I had something out of phase or a bad connection. The zip cord sounded that bad.

Yes, Cat5 is not bad at all, and much better than zipcord.
Capacitance may be an issue for some amps, but I didn't have problems.
The Kimber 4TC is superior, in my setup, but the Cat5 cable is certainly better than Supra 2.5.

 

[jan.didden]

It is solid.

One interesting aspect of my cable test was the fact that I could not hear the difference between cables until I setup the A-B switch.

When I physically changed from zip cords to Cat5 on both speakers, I did not hear the difference. I guess my memory of the sound was not good enough between cable changes. Using the switch, though the difference was quite apparent. I had to go back and check my wiring, I thought I had something out of phase or a bad connection. The zip cord sounded that bad.

Hi Bill,

This is quite interesting. So, you could not hear a difference between cables until you contructed an A-B test method to quickly go between the two. At that point, the difference became so clear that one of the cables actually sounded "bad" in comparison to the other one.
This is the best and most clear argument for A-B testing I have heard in a long time. And to think that many here feel that they can hear differences in isolation but that the differences are somehow masked when you do an A-B. Wow...
No wonder Carlos doesn't want to discuss it 😉

Jan Didden

 

[carlosfm]

No wonder Carlos doesn't want to discuss it 😉

Jan Didden

I have said everything I wanted to say about that, make a search.
I just don't want to post it all over again, and I think this thread has got enough off-road.
You were there, so you must remember.

 

[Variac]

Hey SY,

So, would using a length of cat 5 for each terminal, in its original state (ie not braided but left in its outer insulation) with all 8 conductors joined at each end, be considered high capacitance?

Does braiding so that the conductors cross at a slack angle change the capacitance?

 

[SY]

I'm not sure of your construction because I'm not nearly modern enough to know how CAT5 is constructed. Are you using two separate bundles of wire for Vout and common? If so, capacitance is low.

With those Polk and Cobra cables, the wires of opposite polarity were interlaced quite tightly. That made lots and lots of little caps in parallel. IIRC, the capacitances ran on the order of 1nF per foot, but it's been a lot of years so that may not be correct.

The other thing to consider is that amps with complex source impedances can react badly to one particular range of capacitance, i.e., you can have an amp that's happy with a 10u cap across its output, happy with no capacitance, but will commence lusty oscillation with 1nF. Clearly, that combination will not sound good.

 

[soongsc]

More distance between the + and - runs will reduce capacitance.

If the + and - runs are separate, crossing them at right angles in a braid does reduce interference between the different current directions. But since CAT cables are already twisted, the effects are probably minimum.