rnrss said:
Not a fan of Supra cables, but here it goes some data.
They don't spec capacitance, though.
Notice: the 'Classic' range is quite cheap cable.
http://www.jenving.se/tables/tbclass.htm
BIG wires
rnrss wrote:
On the other hand I have done several tests... nothing scientific about it at all... I just played the same song over and over for a person and switched in a number 12 wire and then back to my number 00 wires... the results? Well 15 out of 15 people voted for the 00 wire... and they did not know which one i was switched as I hid that from them...
Great if it works for you... we used 0000 welding cable (I used to do chromium electroplating, had access to lots of BIG multistrand cables, as chrome plating requires hundreds of amps @ 12 volts to plate anything of any size) as one of the runs in both ABX and DBT type test and, guess what?? Under fairly elaborate analysis (multivariate, that sort of thing) the results between most of the cables were not significant, be they 0000 OFHC 99.99x pure copper or run of the mill standard zip cord of reasonable length.
Again, whatever makes you happy go for it. I've had much greater success upgrading my source(s), amps, and speakers through the decades.
Latest main system...
www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23208&perpage=10&pagenumber=74
rnrss wrote:
On the other hand I have done several tests... nothing scientific about it at all... I just played the same song over and over for a person and switched in a number 12 wire and then back to my number 00 wires... the results? Well 15 out of 15 people voted for the 00 wire... and they did not know which one i was switched as I hid that from them...
Great if it works for you... we used 0000 welding cable (I used to do chromium electroplating, had access to lots of BIG multistrand cables, as chrome plating requires hundreds of amps @ 12 volts to plate anything of any size) as one of the runs in both ABX and DBT type test and, guess what?? Under fairly elaborate analysis (multivariate, that sort of thing) the results between most of the cables were not significant, be they 0000 OFHC 99.99x pure copper or run of the mill standard zip cord of reasonable length.
Again, whatever makes you happy go for it. I've had much greater success upgrading my source(s), amps, and speakers through the decades.
Latest main system...
www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23208&perpage=10&pagenumber=74
carlosfm said:
yeh the resistance of the classic 6 would be equivalent to about an awg 10.3 or so at a little more than 1 ohm per 1000ft... so you could use that as a reference for comparing the pricing of the two.
I have always had difficulty with considering capacitance on speaker wires as it is so minimal in normal home use, and one notch on the treble boost control would compensate for this...
Ya ... now its back to where it was. People talking about cable and cables affect on mechanical damping and the like. More to learn.
I knew a few weeks back when Dave (planet-10) stated point blank and i will paraphrase because i think he was being nice. he said "your amp sucks bananas !" 😀
Amplifier. Thats my next goal but i am a little afraid because i tried an ART audio 2 x 200 pro amp on this a few days ago and it sounded like cats in heat. I dont know what kind of amp it is, Jfet- MosFet- IC -Digital..... i dont have a clue but, whatever kind it was ...i dont want that kind. I am even rethinking my multi amping thing for now and get a good amp for the top end which sounds great for now, better then anything i can remember having before. ( i had great amps but store bought best of the day speakers)
Do tube amps have a hi damping factor? i can get 25 watt chinese mono blocks from Yorkville boutique audio store for 375 each. Thats seems a little cheap so i am balking at that. For 750 i can probably find a decent SS amp even though a tube amp would be nice. 🙄
Art Audio SLA-2 Studio Linear --whatever that is supposed to mean.
I knew a few weeks back when Dave (planet-10) stated point blank and i will paraphrase because i think he was being nice. he said "your amp sucks bananas !" 😀
Amplifier. Thats my next goal but i am a little afraid because i tried an ART audio 2 x 200 pro amp on this a few days ago and it sounded like cats in heat. I dont know what kind of amp it is, Jfet- MosFet- IC -Digital..... i dont have a clue but, whatever kind it was ...i dont want that kind. I am even rethinking my multi amping thing for now and get a good amp for the top end which sounds great for now, better then anything i can remember having before. ( i had great amps but store bought best of the day speakers)
Do tube amps have a hi damping factor? i can get 25 watt chinese mono blocks from Yorkville boutique audio store for 375 each. Thats seems a little cheap so i am balking at that. For 750 i can probably find a decent SS amp even though a tube amp would be nice. 🙄
Art Audio SLA-2 Studio Linear --whatever that is supposed to mean.
Madmike2 said:
That's well said. (!)
Madmike2 said:
Stay away from that.
Now someone will hang me.
😀
Mike:
Sorry, I wasn't in Toronto over the weekend... I'm in Austria at the moment.
Damping factor. Much discussed, little understood, and difficult to generalize. Where it's important is near bass resonance, and the real issue down in that neighborhood is the output transformer, an ugly, ugly thing in the bottom two or three octaves of the audio band.
Sorry, I wasn't in Toronto over the weekend... I'm in Austria at the moment.
Damping factor. Much discussed, little understood, and difficult to generalize. Where it's important is near bass resonance, and the real issue down in that neighborhood is the output transformer, an ugly, ugly thing in the bottom two or three octaves of the audio band.
carlosfm said:
There needs to be some logical cycle of improvement, somthing like DOD development process. for example: Improve the source > Improve amps > improve speakers > Improve source.. endless cycle. Ocasionally improve the interconnects and speaker cables if it makes it easier to identify improvements in the source, then go back into that endless cycle. 😀
Hi all
So go active, one amplifier per speaker element,
design speakers for low damping factor,
solve "all" your problems.
cheers 😉
So go active, one amplifier per speaker element,
design speakers for low damping factor,
solve "all" your problems.
cheers 😉
Madmike2 said:
Bill Gates was the "1", we were the 50 many years ago. Don't give up. 😉
Have you tried Alpha Core foil cables at #14?
Madmike2 said:
Well your amp really doesnt cut it Mike...
That art would be worse than what you have now save your money
Multi amping is nice if you have an infinitely variable crossovers however if they only give you specific frequencies it is a waste of time...
Damping on tube amps is lousy... that is why they never list it in the specs LOL They always talk sales garbage like tonal this that and the other rather than giving you hard data...
Tube amps were popular on horn systems in the good old days as they had a softer sound than SS, but now days with the equipment availiable for equalization they many including myself have passed them by...
Mike think of it like this... When you go to one of the big concerts take a walk around the sound booth and backstage... You wont find a tube amp and you wont find a pioneer...
About the only amps that are commonly used for home that you will also find in a live concert are crowns, some old phase linears etc... When I say live concert I mean the Who, ACDC, Aerosmith, 2 banks of 20ft high x40ft long speakers...
If you are willing to spend 700 bucks on an amp then you may as well go pro and pick up a crown from ebay... I have seen them go for as little as 625bucks at times...
I picked mine up from ebay a couple years ago and paid 700 bucks for it and if I were to sell it today I am sure I would come very close to the price I paid for it on resale... Like buying the harley of the amp world they are always in demand.... That and I expect it will be the last amp I will ever buy as they dont get much better then this....
In addition to being a great amp I especially like the idle circuit so when ya fall asleep after a movie it idles back to only 12 watts standby where as other amps including your pioneer will not and they burn anywhere from 35 to 150 watts just sitting there doing nothing...
I would be very surprized if you were not satisfied with this amp, but dont take my word for it ask others out here who have done listening tests crown vs whatever and get their opinions as well...
I dont want to sound like a crown salesman here but check this out....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...y=64451&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1#ebayphotohosting
Here are the specs:
Frequency Response: 0.25 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. The frequency response is band limited with an 8 Hz double integrated 3rd-order Butterworth high-pass filter and a 32 kHz 7th-order Gaussian low-pass filter.
Signal to Noise (unweighted): >100 dB below rated power.
Voltage Gain (at maximum level setting): 31.5 dB (K1) or 33.1 dB (K2) with input sensitivity switch set to 1.4V. 26 dB with input sensitivity switch set to 26 dB gain (back panel switchable).
Damping Factor: >3,000 from 10 to 400 Hz
Line Voltage Requirements: Universal power supply can be configured to operate with 100, 120, 200, 220, 230, 240, 250 VAC at 50 or 60 Hz. Adapters are available through a Crown or Authorized Service Center.
Front Panel Controls
Level: A calibrated rotary level control for each channel.
Power: An on/off rocker switch.
Back Panel Controls
Input Sensitivity: A two-position switch for each channel located near each channel's input connectors. Can be set to 1.4 V for full output into an 8 ohm load or a fixed voltage gain of 26 dB.
Bridge Output: An on/off switch near each channel's input connectors which, when turned on, bridges the two output channels for twice the output voltage.
"Y" Input: An on/off switch located between the input connectors which, when turned on, parallels the two input channels.
Indicators
TLC: An LED for each channel indicates the amplifier's unique Thermal Level Control (TLC) circuitry is starting to make subtle and dynamic gain reductions to reduce heat rather than shut down. Unlike competitive amps, which may thermal out, Crown's TLC insures your show goes on.
Clip: An orange LED for each channel which turns on when distortion of any type becomes audible in the amplifier output.
IOCTM: The yellow input/output comparator indicators are sensitive distortion indicators that turn on long before distortion is audible. This circuit compares the actual waveforms of the input and output and immediately alerts you of any distortion that exceeds .05% to provide dynamic proof of distortion-free performance
Signal: A green LED for each channel which flashes dimly when a very low-level signal (as low as 10 mW) is present in the output. They flash brightly when a louder signal (at least 1 watt) is present at the output.
Enable: A green LED that illuminates when the amplifier has been turned on and has power. When first turned on, there will be a brief two-second delay while the amplifier performs a quick turn-on diagnostic, and then illuminates the enable indicator to full brightness. If no signal is present, the Enable indicator will switch to a dim level.
Input/Output
Input Connectors: One balanced 1/4 -inch phone jack and one 3-pin female XLR connector for each channel.
Input Stage: Input is electronically balanced and employs precision 1% resistors.
Input Impedance: Nominally 20 K ohms, balanced and 10 K ohms unbalanced.
Input Sensitivity: 1.4 volts for standard 1 kHz power, or 26 dB gain.
Output Connectors: Two sets of color-coded binding posts for banana plugs, spade lugs or bare wire (European models do not accept banana plugs.)
DC Output Offset: 10 millivolts.
Output Signal
Stereo: Unbalanced, two-channel.
Bridge-Mono: Balanced, single-channel. Channel 1 controls are active; Channel 2 should be turned down.
Construction
Cooling: High performance passive convection cooling system allows the amplifier to drive 2-ohm loads to high music sound levels (8 dB into clip) in a 40 C (104F) environment.
Dimensions: Standard 19-inch (48.3 cm) rack mount width (EIA RS-310-B), 3.5-inch (8.9 cm) height and 16-inch (40.6 cm) depth behind front mounting surface.
soongsc said:
Dont waste your money on different cables until you get a better amp....
carlosfm said:
I'm quite impressed that you can judge the sound of an amp without actually hearing it.
SY said:
I'm not judging, that was a question.
I wonder how can that really sound good.
Everytime I simplify filters the sound becomes much more transparent, fast, immediate.
Harmonics of the instruments that were absent suddenly appear.
This has always happened to me, either with CDPs, preamps, amps or speakers.
That amp was for PA use and it can be a decent one in that environment.
Not for home, intimate listening.
I just suspect it can's sound good as it is.
Am I allowed?
Hey, who said power = quality?
Re: BIG wires
Hey plater...
Yeh those are cool... I did a series of tests on those midrange drivers after an audition of a set that looked very similar to those....
They have a very pure midrange and pinpoint focus for the imaging...
Have you ever heard a good horn setup? I am not sure how to describe it exactly but I will give it my best shot...
What I like in a system, my personal taste is to walk from a who concert and into my house and hear the same thing... Then also from a live symphonic performance and into my house and hear the same thing...
To me that would be the ideal setup...
Concerts, rock that is, have big volume... I dont mean big loudness... They have that too but that is not what I am talking about... I am talking about the 100's of square feet of air that is being moved.... They have a huge wall of a sound front coming at you... You can feel the power as each drum hits you in the chest... guitars wail and growl and there are no nasty peaks that rip your face in half and no note dropouts.... and the music is totally transparent... Big air is a huge contributing factor as to why they sound so good....
I am a fan of mono to some degree as it often sounds more real, (live), than stereo...
Any speaker I would own has to have a near perfect center image...
One of the things I listen for is how well aligned they are and what kind of center image they will produce for me.... Its important that I hear the center at all frequencies equally from the deepest bass to highest cymbal and inbetween...
Its important that I have a very wide wall of sound in front of me rather than a speaker on the left and another on the right... For the greater majority of songs it is interesting to note that even when playing them in stereo the greater portion of the music comes from the center and the left right just accents the center on what I would call a really good mix...
I am totally not into the philosophy that they can duplicate where the band members are standing as the only way it would be remotely possible to achieve this would be if we all listened to our stereos in an anoechic chamber... the physical acoustics of different rooms makes this impossible to reproduce in a home environment...
I am very demanding when it comes to sound and if the impact from hitting the drums doesnt tickle my nose and if the instruments dont sound exactly like for instance my brother playing his guitar through his Marshal side by side with my system I am not happy... I need cymbals that smash just like standing in front of the drummer and i need to hear exactly how that guitar is being fingered and I need to hear the bass harmonics... something that I have never heard on anyones system but a bass horn...
Interestingly when I was a kid I used to scorn horn systems because they were always nasty raspy sounding things and often said I would never own one... but now, over 50years old I am still eating crow over that as I have not found anything that can meet the greater majority of my needs which is to approach a live rock and roll concert... and then recall eq setup 3 for symphony or orchestral, (non amplified instruments) and here that as live as possible... ironically a horn system overall most closely approaches what I am after in sound...
Since I am single my next system is going to have a house built around it LOL no kidding I like ot go nuts with this stuff... I plan on a 6'x4ft high bass horn, then a 3.5'x2.5ft high mid horn and last a 2ftx1ft high tweet horn... and then a couple infinite baffle 18" thumpers just to add foundation shaking pressure...
So that will give you an ideal of where I am coming from when I talk about building a system...
For the wire in the plating industry... The results they came up with in their wire tests is about what I would have expected frankly... but then comparing a plating source to a stereo amplifier is like comparing apples to trucks in as much as how the internal resistance affects the outcome...
Here are a couple pics... the small one is mine and the larger one is the one I built for my brother the lead guitar player... His has a little less punch as it is designed to more closely simulate the wider dispersion of a cone driver which are the properties of the big butt horn design...
auplater said:
Hey plater...
Yeh those are cool... I did a series of tests on those midrange drivers after an audition of a set that looked very similar to those....
They have a very pure midrange and pinpoint focus for the imaging...
Have you ever heard a good horn setup? I am not sure how to describe it exactly but I will give it my best shot...
What I like in a system, my personal taste is to walk from a who concert and into my house and hear the same thing... Then also from a live symphonic performance and into my house and hear the same thing...
To me that would be the ideal setup...
Concerts, rock that is, have big volume... I dont mean big loudness... They have that too but that is not what I am talking about... I am talking about the 100's of square feet of air that is being moved.... They have a huge wall of a sound front coming at you... You can feel the power as each drum hits you in the chest... guitars wail and growl and there are no nasty peaks that rip your face in half and no note dropouts.... and the music is totally transparent... Big air is a huge contributing factor as to why they sound so good....
I am a fan of mono to some degree as it often sounds more real, (live), than stereo...
Any speaker I would own has to have a near perfect center image...
One of the things I listen for is how well aligned they are and what kind of center image they will produce for me.... Its important that I hear the center at all frequencies equally from the deepest bass to highest cymbal and inbetween...
Its important that I have a very wide wall of sound in front of me rather than a speaker on the left and another on the right... For the greater majority of songs it is interesting to note that even when playing them in stereo the greater portion of the music comes from the center and the left right just accents the center on what I would call a really good mix...
I am totally not into the philosophy that they can duplicate where the band members are standing as the only way it would be remotely possible to achieve this would be if we all listened to our stereos in an anoechic chamber... the physical acoustics of different rooms makes this impossible to reproduce in a home environment...
I am very demanding when it comes to sound and if the impact from hitting the drums doesnt tickle my nose and if the instruments dont sound exactly like for instance my brother playing his guitar through his Marshal side by side with my system I am not happy... I need cymbals that smash just like standing in front of the drummer and i need to hear exactly how that guitar is being fingered and I need to hear the bass harmonics... something that I have never heard on anyones system but a bass horn...
Interestingly when I was a kid I used to scorn horn systems because they were always nasty raspy sounding things and often said I would never own one... but now, over 50years old I am still eating crow over that as I have not found anything that can meet the greater majority of my needs which is to approach a live rock and roll concert... and then recall eq setup 3 for symphony or orchestral, (non amplified instruments) and here that as live as possible... ironically a horn system overall most closely approaches what I am after in sound...
Since I am single my next system is going to have a house built around it LOL no kidding I like ot go nuts with this stuff... I plan on a 6'x4ft high bass horn, then a 3.5'x2.5ft high mid horn and last a 2ftx1ft high tweet horn... and then a couple infinite baffle 18" thumpers just to add foundation shaking pressure...
So that will give you an ideal of where I am coming from when I talk about building a system...
For the wire in the plating industry... The results they came up with in their wire tests is about what I would have expected frankly... but then comparing a plating source to a stereo amplifier is like comparing apples to trucks in as much as how the internal resistance affects the outcome...
Here are a couple pics... the small one is mine and the larger one is the one I built for my brother the lead guitar player... His has a little less punch as it is designed to more closely simulate the wider dispersion of a cone driver which are the properties of the big butt horn design...
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Member
Joined 2004
Hi soongsc
I did! 😀
Bought a single silver coil from them. Unrolled it was enough for a 2m pair speaker cable and a 1m IC. Very musical and revealling, especially at the audio frequency extremes (as far as my monitor speakers allow) . And fast, too.
Have you tried flat ribbon IDC cable? 😎
Cheers,
carlosfm said:
Hi Carlos....
Having designed and built a few different equalizers and electronic crossover circuits I really do not understand why you are having problems with your filters cutting out harmonics, I assume you mean in the passband...
I on the other hand after auditioning the majority of high end amps have never heard an amp that is so transiently clean, nor have I ever heard and amp that was so brilliant and pure sounding...
In fact all the power amps that I am aware of have a high end filter to prevent runaway and some like this one have a low end filter others will go down to dc...
This K2 reproduces a pristene square wave on the scope which I believe is pure 3rd order harmonics, (someone correct me if I am wrong), and the electronic crossovers that I designed for the harts did as well in the passband... and I also built in a PID section to extend the squareness about a 1/3 of an octave or so... They sounded up pretty good with that but I am hooked on horns now...
For the power the k2 is only 500 watts into 8 ohms... Right now I personally own a phase linear 770b, carver 500 I think, (which is nearly the same design as the phase), a couple SAE's, a Peavy CS800 as far as bigger amps go and none of them stack up to the crown and all of them with exception to the peavey are considered home amps... I have also listened to and owned a few other hi end amps and still go back to crown...
Carlos, I am really curious why you are having those problems with filters... Would you be willing to share with us the design and parameters you are using them under?
I do not understand what you feel is different about a pa amp from a home amp that would make a home amp reproduce harmonics better than any other amp of its class... Frankly I thought any power amp was considered a pa amp technically... Whats the difference?
What amp would you suggest for the best harmonic reproduction?
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