Wires redux
>Dont get me wrong, i am glad these discussion happen. I have learned more in 3 months then i did 2 years working >venues and 3 years building car audio just by reading these forums.
>There is no magic wire. Just Magic Tricks and NLP for the marketing guys. Buy wire that wont oxidise and is heavy enough >to do what needs to be done.
>I am 1 , you are 50 but i dont think any of us are quacks. I just think we have different needs. With wire, mine have been >met for now. Reality only has one absolute.
As you dismissed my (admittedly) circumspect response re: skin effect, etc... as being stale and inapropriate... I'm glad you reached the proper conclusion...
As for wire, some of us work in fields where the engineering, science, etc. are absolutely critical (as in, it won't work if we don't understand what's going on).. I for one have been involved in radio astronomy, aerospace, and high tech computer peripherals for more than 3 decades (not to mention actively pursuing audio engineering since 1966 as a serious hobby). Some have done the math. Some of us have done many many experiments (INfinity IRS monsters in the late '80's with all sorts of amps and $$$$$ wires for one)
I reached the same conclusion after decades of training in engineering materials and multitudes of experimentation. As long as the connectors don't corrode, the wire is robust wrt the current being carried, the C is reasonably low... 14 gauge zip cord is indistinguishable from $2000 cable, as long as the expensive cable has no unusual (negative) sonic signature.
If someone wants to state that their system works better when they spend mucho bucks on speaker wire, that's fine... as long as it's stated as opinion. More often than not, others are chastised for taking the scientifically and practical opposing view that fantastic and mysterious claims promulgated to support such a position are unprovable and their experience backed by engineering and proper experiments clearly proves otherwise.
IOW opinion is not fact...
>Dont get me wrong, i am glad these discussion happen. I have learned more in 3 months then i did 2 years working >venues and 3 years building car audio just by reading these forums.
>There is no magic wire. Just Magic Tricks and NLP for the marketing guys. Buy wire that wont oxidise and is heavy enough >to do what needs to be done.
>I am 1 , you are 50 but i dont think any of us are quacks. I just think we have different needs. With wire, mine have been >met for now. Reality only has one absolute.
As you dismissed my (admittedly) circumspect response re: skin effect, etc... as being stale and inapropriate... I'm glad you reached the proper conclusion...
As for wire, some of us work in fields where the engineering, science, etc. are absolutely critical (as in, it won't work if we don't understand what's going on).. I for one have been involved in radio astronomy, aerospace, and high tech computer peripherals for more than 3 decades (not to mention actively pursuing audio engineering since 1966 as a serious hobby). Some have done the math. Some of us have done many many experiments (INfinity IRS monsters in the late '80's with all sorts of amps and $$$$$ wires for one)
I reached the same conclusion after decades of training in engineering materials and multitudes of experimentation. As long as the connectors don't corrode, the wire is robust wrt the current being carried, the C is reasonably low... 14 gauge zip cord is indistinguishable from $2000 cable, as long as the expensive cable has no unusual (negative) sonic signature.
If someone wants to state that their system works better when they spend mucho bucks on speaker wire, that's fine... as long as it's stated as opinion. More often than not, others are chastised for taking the scientifically and practical opposing view that fantastic and mysterious claims promulgated to support such a position are unprovable and their experience backed by engineering and proper experiments clearly proves otherwise.
IOW opinion is not fact...
Hey Mike,
Man is never satisfied.
That's the genesis of evolution and progress.
You are satisfied for now.
For how long?
Who knows?
Listen as much as you can.
The goal should be to improve your source component as much as you can, then your amplification, then your speakers.
Not the other way around.
Cables are the least important, in that matter we agree.
But they can make difference, sometimes not subtle.
Man is never satisfied.
That's the genesis of evolution and progress.
You are satisfied for now.
For how long?
Who knows?
Listen as much as you can.
The goal should be to improve your source component as much as you can, then your amplification, then your speakers.
Not the other way around.
Cables are the least important, in that matter we agree.
But they can make difference, sometimes not subtle.
Years ago, after reading so many articles extolling the virtues of bi-wiring, and my speakers being equipped with the necessary connections, I ran two lengths of cable to my speakers. The magic transformation just didn't happen. As an experiment, I wired a 1 Ohm resistor in series with the tweeter ( to wire it in series with the woofer would be cheating😀 ). Could I tell the difference? Maybe if I had a remote switch so that I could change it back and forth while in the listening position, I could then be sure. The conclusions I made were that the articles had greatly exagerated the difference that bi-wiring makes, and that money is better spent elsewhere to improve the system.🙂
I think the effects of biwiring would be near impossible to detect. I would suggest larger cable if you're worried about the interactions of the frequencies within the length of the wire. Maybe they wouldn't feel so crowded with a nice big 10 ga. freeway to travel on.
I think that bi-wiring might have been a mistake. The demonstration was supposed to show why you want bi-amp, but when they showed up they only had one amp in the truck. Oops, now what do we do?
I know, let's...
I think that bi-wiring might have been a mistake. The demonstration was supposed to show why you want bi-amp, but when they showed up they only had one amp in the truck. Oops, now what do we do?
I know, let's...
carlosfm said:
That pretty much sums up the conclusions I've arrived at, in 30 years of being an audiophile. But I fear you've just kicked the hornet's nest, Carlos. 😀
Johnnyx, I can't hear a difference when I bi-wire either (using 13ga Linn K-400 speaker cables).
audiobomber said:
Not our friend Carlos. When he kicks a nest, he sticks around and talks those pesky little devils into submission. Very much a man who stands behind his beliefs. Carlos extols the virtues of the wire to the end.
He just had a soft moment that's all. 😉
Cal
So if we cann't believe articles about bi-wiring, how can we believe articles about the audibility of cables ?
The only thing I can suggest is to conduct (sic) your own tests and draw your own conclusions.
27 pages of posts and no concensus. You figure it out 😉
Cal
27 pages of posts and no concensus. You figure it out 😉
Cal
Bi-wiring: some fall on that
By bi-wiring, most of the times you are doubling the cable's capacitance.
Not good.
The benefit of removing those nasty metal links that most speakers have is lost by the fact that you're doubling the cable's capacitance by bi-wiring.
Actually it can immediately sound worse.
Much better is (as I do use) to run a wire link between the binding posts and use a single run of good (don't confuse with expensive) cable.
Bi-wiring is marketing talk, just to sell more wire.
Not to say that it never works, but most if the times it doesn't.
Bi-amping yes, that's another matter.
johnnyx said:
By bi-wiring, most of the times you are doubling the cable's capacitance.
Not good.
The benefit of removing those nasty metal links that most speakers have is lost by the fact that you're doubling the cable's capacitance by bi-wiring.
Actually it can immediately sound worse.
Much better is (as I do use) to run a wire link between the binding posts and use a single run of good (don't confuse with expensive) cable.
Bi-wiring is marketing talk, just to sell more wire.
Not to say that it never works, but most if the times it doesn't.
Bi-amping yes, that's another matter.
Cal Weldon said:
Actually I think this thread ended up as a good discussion, don't you think?
I hope we are not all praying in the desert, each one take his conclusions.
Seriously Cal, spending my time posting here and sharing my experiences, and reading something like this is not very rewarding.
Makes me turn my soldering iron back on, and I've just unplugged it.
Maybe it's better to go back to that Teac VRDS T1 I'm modding...
Carlos, you just shot down my dreams🙂 After reading RM's article on CAT5 speakercables, I thought I would give it a try
I just had 50 meters of first class CAT5 cable, (for free at least😀 ). What will I put up with it? Is it possible to make a good speakercable from it? Steen😎
steenoe said:Carlos, you just shot down my dreams🙂 After reading RM's article on CAT5 speakercables, I thought I would give it a try
Steen😎
I once dismantled 3 runs of cat5, separated all the wires and put them, with very little crossing, inside a chunky plastic sleeve.
Terminated both sides with 4mm plugs and then I was so tired I didn't have the courage to make the other cable.
I only have one.
It's here somewhere...
I have made lots of interconnects with cat5, it's good. But that's using just 3 or 4 crossed wires, a la Kimber.
I tested it for speaker cable, as-is and I was not convinced, either with one or two crossed cables.
On my basement I use it to feed a pair of stand-alone tweeters, and on that role it's quite good, with short distances.
steenoe said:Carlos, you just shot down my dreams🙂 After reading RM's article on CAT5 speakercables, I thought I would give it a try
Steen😎
Thats what i am using right now, 6 strands per side. Its equivilant to 12 gauge or so. Silver over copper. I believe its OFC as well. So thats what i am sticking with. For now. I have to move on to the next link in the chain and or get a new anchor bolt for the chain. I am so enamored right now of the top end sans low frequency i am not even worried about my woofers at the moment. I want to get my 2 ways to their logical conclusion first.
calosfm>
"Actually I think this thread ended up as a good discussion, don't you think?
I hope we are not all praying in the desert, each one take his conclusions.
Seriously Cal, spending my time posting here and sharing my experiences, and reading something like this is not very rewarding.
Makes me turn my soldering iron back on, and I've just unplugged it.
Maybe it's better to go back to that Teac VRDS T1 I'm modding..."
I concur. it had its moments
Cal Weldon >
"Not our friend Carlos. When he kicks a nest, he sticks around and talks those pesky little devils into submission. Very much a man who stands behind his beliefs. Carlos extols the virtues of the wire to the end.
He just had a soft moment that's all.
Cal"
LOL
Thanks a lot, Carlos🙂 I guess I wont bother with speakercables, then
I do have a lot of cable for interconnect's though😀 Steen😎
carlosfm said:
All to tru that the tables are only an approximation of what one can expect from buying standard copper wire... we can split that hair several ways if we wish but that in my opinion would overlook what I believe is the bottom line. That being that good ole fashioned copper wire will as a rule do a better job dollar for dollar than all these wonder wires... Granted I certainly can understand that not everyone wants 2 wires that are 3/4" in diameter laying on their floor, so in those and similar cases there are reasons to go with the high buck smaller low r wire as long as they can prove their resistance is really low, i wont deny that. But I stand my ground that good ole copper will give you the most bang for the buck when compared with all other methods, which is why I use 00 on my stuff.
Johan Potgieter said:
Johan I read what you did here and my brain went out on a momentary null... You totally lost me in your arithmetic... so I guess its best just to go through this step by step and see if we can get to the bottom of this.
Ok first lets look at setting up our math with an arbituary set of numbers then lets plug in your numbers....
I will limit this example to AmpZ, WireR, CoilZ, CoilDcR.
So summing all Z's we would use:
Source Z = Amp = .0001ohm
wire R = .0001ohms
Coil DC resistance = 5ohms
Coil ac resistance Z = 10ohms
In real life unloaded speaker Z changes nominally from 7 to 100 ohms and sometimes lower or higher depending on the driver and is frequency dependant... Now for the sake of simplicity I am using a static value of coil impedance Z.
To properly calculate the actual "total" system damping you must sum the load Z's which is the (dc coil resistanceR+ac coil impedanceZ) and then divide that by the sum of the source impedance which is the (ampZ+wireR).
So that said:
Zc = 10ohms = coil impedance
Rc = 5ohms = coil resistance
Za = .0001ohms = amp impedance
Rw = .0001ohms = wire resistance
Now using the formula for damping that can be found literally anywhere on the net:
Damping Factor = (Load Impedance) / (Source Impedance)
Therefore:
DFt = (Zc)+(Rc)
---------------
(Za)+(Rw)
DFt = 10(Zc)+5(Rc)
---------------
.0001(Za)+.0001(Rw)
DFt = 10+5
--------
.0001+.0001
DFt = 15
---------
.0002
DFt = 75000
Ok now to use your first example:
voice coil resistance of an 8 ohm (nominal) driver as say 5 ohm,
total speaker cable resistance of 100 milli-ohm = .1 ohm
amplifier output impedance as negligible,
back e.m.f. will be limited by 5.1 ohm (not just 0.1 ohm).
REAL damping factor of 8/5.1 or 1.569.
Since we cant divide by zero i will put the amp Z at .0001 again and not include Coil Z in the formula to keep this an apples for apples calculation, as you did not include it.
Then:
Rc = 5ohm
Rw = .1ohm
Za = .0001
Then:
DFt = 5(Rc)
---------------
.0001(Za)+.1(Rw)
DFt = 5
---------------
.0001+.1
DFt = 5
---------------
.1001
DFt = 49.95
Now Using your Second example:
cable of only 10 milli-ohm, =.01ohm
current is limited by 5.01 ohm,
giving a real damping factor of 1.597.
Rc = 5ohm
Rw = .01ohm
Za = .0001
Then:
DFt = 5(Rc)
---------------
.0001(Za)+.01(Rw)
DFt = 5
---------------
.0001+.01
DFt = 5
---------------
.0101
DFt = 495
This comes to around 10 times better damping which corresponds to the 10 times reduction in wire resistance which is what I would expect in a linear equation.
back e.m.f. will be limited by 5.1 ohm (not just 0.1 ohm).
The wire is not the load so the wire resistance must be added to the source not the load...
REAL damping factor of 8/5.1
I am guessing that you are dividing the nominal stated resistance of the driver by the dc coil resistance of the driver to get those numbers...
I do agree with you that the back emf is limited by the sum of the system Z's but I do not agree with the way you are doing your math or using the wire as part of the load.
From my experience the most important requirements for any speaker system are, high damping, big wire, realtime analyser, and something like the deq2496 that will do spike suppression/graphiceq/parametriceq...
Madmike2 said:
Yes the bass is where you should notice the greatet difference then mid then least for the treble...
Mike here are your specs on that receiver:
Pioneer SX-737
Power Output: 35 watts per channel RMS into 8 ohms, 40 watts into 4 ohms.
Harmonic Distortion: Less than 0.05%
Intermodulation Distortion: Less than 0.05%
Power Bandwidth: 5Hz to 60kHz
Damping Factor: >40
Residual Hum and Noise: >0.5mV
Frequency Response: 15Hz to 40kHz +/- 1dB
<snip the fm specs>
If you like to putz around Mike and you know someone who has any one of the newer crown amps, (my fav), or phase linear, some carvers, I think some Mac's have pretty high df too, and i am sure several others if you look around a bit, anyway if you like to putz, see if they would let you hook it up to your speakers for a test run... I would look for anything with a df of >1000 into 8ohms... I have found the newer fet crown amps to have superb df and transient response personally and if you could get a hold of one of them you would be forever spoiled I expect...
I think you will be pleasantly surprized at what your speakers can really do with a high damping amp, as the damping on that pioneer is 40 and most literature will agree that your df should be above 200 at the speaker terminals... That is why anything bigger than awg 14 is not doing anything for you on that particular amp and speaker...
Your amp has an impedance of roughly .2ohms into an 8ohm load ok... so you can use that number in the formula...
So because the amp impedance is so high you have already reached the point of considerably diminished returns with awg14 wire and anything larger does nothing more...
Now i am somewhat of a fanatic even by my own definition when it comes to audio so I certainly would not try to push you or anyone else into buying a big amp but at the same time I see so many people doing such strange things with their systems and following every fad that comes along when there are a few very simple things to keep in mind to get the most out of any speaker system...
If you decide to try that little experiment take note that the high damp amps have .15% distortion! It totally blows peoples minds when they hear a high distortion amp sound clearer than a low distortion amp!! (you can have lots of fun with that!!)
The things you should here are better smoothed sytem resonances which will give you smoother bass, more transparency full range, and it will have substantially greater impact on fast transient music... drums will be extremely tight etc...
Use that df calculator and calculate a df for a min of 200... maybe move your speakers temporarily close together just for the test... then switch between your 200df or 200+df wire and amp and then back to the old small stuff and i am sure you will be smiling... I guarantee you that you will hear a difference once yo uput on a high df amp... and if you like to putz I am sure you will have lots of fun with this...
Oh and one other note of caution... It is very easy to blow speakers up when you have high damping because they get so clear that the temptation to turn em up is hard to resist... so be sure to monitor your power levels so you dont cook them...
auplater said:
I am in total agreement with you when you say there is no majik wire and also with connectors that do not corrode as well as appropriate surface area on the connections.... and i also agree that number 14 zip cord works very well as long as the wires are not much longer than 3 feet between the amp and the speaker...
On the other hand I have done several tests... nothing scientific about it at all... I just played the same song over and over for a person and switched in a number 12 wire and then back to my number 00 wires... the results? Well 15 out of 15 people voted for the 00 wire... and they did not know which one i was switched as I hid that from them...
Another thing that just came to mind is that this whole thing may not be as noticeable to people with low damping amps.... That and I have grown quite accustomed to a horn bass which is extremely articulate so the damping issue can be noticed like day and night on this system... and although I notice the differences on other designs, like closed box and reflex and so forth, the difference does not hit me in the face as much as it does on an all horn system, especially the bass horn, that is where I notice the greatest difference...
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