So after quite a bit of time reading and searching the internet, I decided to seek advices and opinions on the forum. I could have posted this in the multi-way section too since i’m interested in both styles, but full range speakers have a little something that appeals to me. As I will be completing my first single ended amp (tubelab sse), i’m starting to search for speakers that would match this kind of amplifier. I don’t know yet if i’ll build something myself or if i’ll just buy a speaker pair. Still open to both ways and hopefully your answers will help clarify that.
I’ll provide some requirements that I would love my next speakers to meet :
- full 20hz to 20khz
- high sensitivity, (mid 90’s and up)
- I don’t care about size as long as they can fit under an 8' ceiling
- flat impedance curve (or should I say the flatter possible impedance curve. A flat curve is called a line IMO 😀 )
- kind of affordable would be nice
- I really like full range drivers, but they don’t seem to be able to check all the previous boxes
- I also like large drivers, for their sound and their style
-I intend to use the speakers in a 15x28’ room with 8’ ceiling
Speakers I already have at home :
-cerwin vega at-15 (3way 4 drivers with 15" full range driven woofer, 102db)
-EV 12trxb in need for good enclosures
-infinity rs1000 and rs4000
New, used, kit or diy ?
Any related comments are mote than welcomed ! Thanks !
I’ll provide some requirements that I would love my next speakers to meet :
- full 20hz to 20khz
- high sensitivity, (mid 90’s and up)
- I don’t care about size as long as they can fit under an 8' ceiling
- flat impedance curve (or should I say the flatter possible impedance curve. A flat curve is called a line IMO 😀 )
- kind of affordable would be nice
- I really like full range drivers, but they don’t seem to be able to check all the previous boxes
- I also like large drivers, for their sound and their style
-I intend to use the speakers in a 15x28’ room with 8’ ceiling
Speakers I already have at home :
-cerwin vega at-15 (3way 4 drivers with 15" full range driven woofer, 102db)
-EV 12trxb in need for good enclosures
-infinity rs1000 and rs4000
New, used, kit or diy ?
Any related comments are mote than welcomed ! Thanks !
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Hope you realize your requirements are mutually excluding.
20 Hz flat? ... in your dreams.
Ruler flat impedance?
Even less.
20 Hz flat? ... in your dreams.
Ruler flat impedance?
Even less.
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By definition, an impendance/frequency response isn’t flat or we wouldn’t call it a curve. I totally understand the limitations and that compromises have to be made.
That being said, tubes like resistive loads, so I want to aim for the flattest curve I can get within the limitations. It’s hard for me to know how big a bump or a dip in the curve is acceptable for a tube amp, especially for a single ended.
Going down to 40~50 hz would be more realistic and doable, but you'll have much more options if you don't mid crossing them to a small sub or two at like 60~80 hz.
What materials do you want? Wood? Composite? Foamboard?
If you aren't against alternative materials, a hybrid construction method of plywood sides and foamcore board internal chambers would be a nice way to build something like the "Nautaloss" that xrk971 has shown in the foamcore speaker thread- it is probably one of the more flat measuring speaker designs around, but will need a modest sub unless you build it large.
The Nautaloss Ref Monitor
Plywood construction with foamcore inner channels may be a great option.
What materials do you want? Wood? Composite? Foamboard?
If you aren't against alternative materials, a hybrid construction method of plywood sides and foamcore board internal chambers would be a nice way to build something like the "Nautaloss" that xrk971 has shown in the foamcore speaker thread- it is probably one of the more flat measuring speaker designs around, but will need a modest sub unless you build it large.
The Nautaloss Ref Monitor
Plywood construction with foamcore inner channels may be a great option.
By crossing them to a small sub or two, do you mean standard subs in their own boxes or subs integrated into the same enclosure as the speakers ? I was wondering if it was possible to build a two way speaker using a full range for the mids and highs, in whatever implementation it would fit, and crossing over to a sub that can really go down to 20hz, in it’s own box but in the same enclosure.
Lets not forget that I want to be able to drive my speakers with small set amps
Thanks to all !
As for materials, i’m open to anything. Especially if it allows me to reach my goals !
Either would work, depending on how you want to go. A couple moderately sized sealed subs that are separate from the full range enclosures would be flexible enough and easy to move as needed depending on room setup or treatment. You could do a single if you cross at ~75 hz or lower, but I would go for two off of a Class D amplifier since they're so affordable.
Look at efficient speaker drivers to build around that fit your budget, and then start listing them to see what enclosures are commonly built for them.
What amplifiers and circuit topologies do you run? SE triode with no global feedback can be a challenge, but if there's feedback to control damping factor better then you can easily drive some more variety.
Look at efficient speaker drivers to build around that fit your budget, and then start listing them to see what enclosures are commonly built for them.
What amplifiers and circuit topologies do you run? SE triode with no global feedback can be a challenge, but if there's feedback to control damping factor better then you can easily drive some more variety.
An impedance that presents a more "resistive" load can be desirable for a SE amp. This can be accomplished with a series crossover. An example of a (ported) bookshelf 2-way impedance is attached. The (series) crossover from midwoofer to tweeter is about 2750 Hz. The port is tuned to 60~65 Hz. I drive these with a KT88/6550 based SE amp that has about 6-8 W output in triode mode. These speakers are around 87 or 88 dB, yet plenty loud for my tastes.
I use a powered subwoofer to take care of everything below that.
Of course, using drivers with higher sensitivity or an amp with more grunt may also be desirable.
Just one solution. There are many others.
I use a powered subwoofer to take care of everything below that.
Of course, using drivers with higher sensitivity or an amp with more grunt may also be desirable.
Just one solution. There are many others.
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My main tube amp will be a tubelab sse. Not actually a triode amp, but can be used in triode, pentode and UL mode. It goes from around 5w to 15w with a 6550 in UL mode. I’m also building an other se amp with 6v6 cathode follower output stage.
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I got darn close to finding what you seek with a single 15” driver, Audio Nirvana Super. Note: as they are made in China you pay a 25% tax when you buy them from Audio Nirvana who only sell out of the US i.e. list prices are up since Q1
I put my driver in a large box, 4’ tall 2’ x 2’
It doesn’t give me ‘slam’ like my PMC towers but it goes deep on the bass. Treble works well for my ears but in reality struggles past 15kHz
I put my driver in a large box, 4’ tall 2’ x 2’
It doesn’t give me ‘slam’ like my PMC towers but it goes deep on the bass. Treble works well for my ears but in reality struggles past 15kHz
They shure look nice, but at 1860 can$ without the enclosures, they are way too much expensive for me and my first speaker build. It would be nice though!
Those full range are nice and affordable. Available in 12" and 15" with the same motor, but the 12" goes a bit lower than the 15". Used with a sub, I could skip the big impedance spike around 50hz, if I can find a suitable bass driver with an impedance curve close enough to match.
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12250tc.pdf
https://solen.ca/wp-content/uploads/12250tc.pdf
The 15" is a lot flatter between 50hz and 100hz, but the response seems to drop faster than for the 12" below 50hz
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I'm looking for similar "utopia" speakers like you, and the closest i've found are the Fane Sovereign fullrange speakers. A 12-250TC is 98-100dB efficient, and in a 360L ported box and with some eq reasonable flat from 32hz untill 17kHz with an Fs of 26Hz i see in a simulation. But that is the closest i've got...
The driver is 80€ down here and the woodwork maximum a few hundred (depending on how much you do yourself and what wood you use) so i probally gonna try it in the near future (first finish some other projects).
The driver is 80€ down here and the woodwork maximum a few hundred (depending on how much you do yourself and what wood you use) so i probally gonna try it in the near future (first finish some other projects).
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360 liters should be good and work well with the amplifier's output Z. My One Electron UBT-1 transformers seemed useless at 20Hz but part of the limitation was an interstage transfomer.
I forgot to mention that 12-250TC should not bottom out easily. I drove it free air at fs and down
to 20Hz up to arpund 15v without problems. It also works welll in a Karlson K12 with
vent damped. A subwoofer coming ini at 80 would be needed.
I forgot to mention that 12-250TC should not bottom out easily. I drove it free air at fs and down
to 20Hz up to arpund 15v without problems. It also works welll in a Karlson K12 with
vent damped. A subwoofer coming ini at 80 would be needed.
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And why is that? the 12 (on paper) looks like a good candidate also. What is your argument to push me tot the 15 (wich is bigger and need a bigger case, and less important, is more expensive).
There’s something I need to know. Why most woofers and subs I look at exhibit a huge impedance peak between 20hz and 50hz ?? Does it have to be there or there’s a way to avoid or minimize it ?
I’ve re read the thread and realized that a solution has been pointed out : using series crossover. I’ll need to investigate this, but is there any other way to thame those big impedance bumps ?
I’m just thinking out loud, but wouldn’t those peaks cancel out themselves if they were 180 degree out phase from each other ? My understanding is that phase should be as close as possible to 0, so a 180 degree phase out should definitely affect the sound. I just don’t have the knowledge to completely understand the effect of phase on the sound. Could there be a way to use phase to cancel out those peaks from the amp point of view while still getting "in phase" sound out of the speakers ?
Thanks for your helpful answers guys !
The impedance peak you are referring to is a characteristic of the drivers. It is an indication of the natural resonance frequency, due to mechanical/acoustic/electrical properties.
There are ways to alleviate it electrically. Here is a link to a paper by the late Marshall Leach that derives a circuit to accomplish it. It should be noted that inductor and capacitor values get larger for lower frequencies. (often cost prohibitive) Also, this is applicable to a single peak (e.g. sealed box), but not for the two peaks resulting from a ported box.
https://leachlegacy.ece.gatech.edu/ece4445/downloads/zobel.pdf
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There is acoustic phase, and then there is electrical phase -- 2 separate things. The in-phase and out-of-phase you are referring to involve acoustic cancellation or reinforcement.
Electrical phase refers to resistive and reactive components. Getting the right balance of electrical elements can combine to achieve a more or less resistive load for the amp. Series crossovers can achieve this at the crossover point, but they are more difficult to work with.
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