You buy a pair of new, very expensive HIFI speaker to test your self build oscillators? This is about the worst idea I have heard of in HIFI for years.
You are producing test generators for synthetic waveforms with all kinds of distortions and want them to sound "natural"? Because of that you want a Class A amp, a high end speaker and no digital processing? Boy, you smoke some hard stuff. Maybe drink a beer instead for a few weeks.
If you want to test "your" sine, square or whatever waves at high level, get a solid PA box with replaceable tweeter diaphragma and a robust amp with build in limiter.
That way you can minimize defects. You should need mono only, so a single speaker will do.
A HIFI tweeter only needs half a second of "Buzzzzz" and it is gone. At low frequency, one hit at the bottom will bend your woofers voice coil and it is toast. You may not hear more than a loud "click".
There are ways to reduce the risk of an DIYS amp oscillating or delivering DC, just like limiting the input from an audio (or sine wave) source, but you don't seem to be deep involved in speaker/ amp stuff. A little naive maybe. A HIFI set up is no test bench or life music PA, but made for listening to recorded music.
You are producing test generators for synthetic waveforms with all kinds of distortions and want them to sound "natural"? Because of that you want a Class A amp, a high end speaker and no digital processing? Boy, you smoke some hard stuff. Maybe drink a beer instead for a few weeks.
If you want to test "your" sine, square or whatever waves at high level, get a solid PA box with replaceable tweeter diaphragma and a robust amp with build in limiter.
That way you can minimize defects. You should need mono only, so a single speaker will do.
A HIFI tweeter only needs half a second of "Buzzzzz" and it is gone. At low frequency, one hit at the bottom will bend your woofers voice coil and it is toast. You may not hear more than a loud "click".
There are ways to reduce the risk of an DIYS amp oscillating or delivering DC, just like limiting the input from an audio (or sine wave) source, but you don't seem to be deep involved in speaker/ amp stuff. A little naive maybe. A HIFI set up is no test bench or life music PA, but made for listening to recorded music.
I'm not connecting anything directly to my amp, only through pre-amp/mixer. I'm also recording to tape for playback. Try making your point without personal attack. I'm learning about analog signal path and have not been blessed with your 'deep involvement in speakers and amps' Good on you!
Time to relax and enjoy the good life. New speakers, soon to be new amp,
And...
Where are the photos robo man? Both speakers and amp. Partial build is just fine.
Recently enlarged my amplification chain so that every channel in the phono pre, preamp, and monoblock levels had its own discrete pcb and psu. Made a tremendous difference in volume smoothness and concert level capability. And being able to set the DC offset to "0" at each level promotes comfortable speaker performance. I find if you jiggle that trimpot just right you can only see 0's on the meter.
The post suggesting a casual approach towards speaker break in is worth rereading.
And...
Where are the photos robo man? Both speakers and amp. Partial build is just fine.
Recently enlarged my amplification chain so that every channel in the phono pre, preamp, and monoblock levels had its own discrete pcb and psu. Made a tremendous difference in volume smoothness and concert level capability. And being able to set the DC offset to "0" at each level promotes comfortable speaker performance. I find if you jiggle that trimpot just right you can only see 0's on the meter.
The post suggesting a casual approach towards speaker break in is worth rereading.
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If something in your new build oscillator goes wrong, it's output may run through your whole chain with negative results. You should use some cheap and/ or protected gear for experiments, but no sensitive HIFI amp and speaker. I see no use in that, anyway. Once, when your prototype is finished, maybe listen to recordings of it on the HIFI.
It is like connecting an electric guitar to a HIFI. Just one hard hit on the instrument will burn out the tweeters. That is why you see no one practicing E-guitar on a HIFI, but always on small guitar amps.
It is like connecting an electric guitar to a HIFI. Just one hard hit on the instrument will burn out the tweeters. That is why you see no one practicing E-guitar on a HIFI, but always on small guitar amps.
I do plan on using my own synths but they are production hardware and not experiments. I've been playing synths through studio monitors for over 10 years.
I plan on doing nothing more than what is done when generating tones for testing speakers. I just need to ensure I don't go below or above certain frequencies.
@Turbowatch2 Since you have deep knowledge, what speakers and amp would you use if you had $20,000 of analog synths sitting in front of you? I'll consider looking at what you recommend. ( amp and speaker please ) If you truly have this understanding you speak of, you won't suggest anything digital such as DSP/ClassD. I don't need a PA in my living room, and it needs to sound great at lower volumes.
Joel uses Genelec:
I plan on doing nothing more than what is done when generating tones for testing speakers. I just need to ensure I don't go below or above certain frequencies.
@Turbowatch2 Since you have deep knowledge, what speakers and amp would you use if you had $20,000 of analog synths sitting in front of you? I'll consider looking at what you recommend. ( amp and speaker please ) If you truly have this understanding you speak of, you won't suggest anything digital such as DSP/ClassD. I don't need a PA in my living room, and it needs to sound great at lower volumes.
Joel uses Genelec:
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The whole world is using digital devices and class D amps. You will have a huge problem to get an analog record that's content has not been processed digitally countless times. So what is the point of not using it for synthesized sounds?
You are free to build, use and listen to what you want, no problem for me. Have a nice life!
You are free to build, use and listen to what you want, no problem for me. Have a nice life!
@Turbowatch2 you came at me so hot, so I'm just trying to understand your logic. There is a huge segment of the industry focused on analog, including many on the diyaudio.com site which is what brought me here. Folks like Neil Young, Jack White, Daniel Lanoix, Daftpunk, Deadmau5 and many others are big on using pure analog. I realize it gets converted to digital but that is the point. Jack White uses a very interesting analog recording device. ( he visited a local sewing store to fix it one time ) I know I can always use digital and it will sound crips and clean and loud.
The only way to experience true analog ( guitar, piano, synth etc. ) is to do so live, since it's impossible to record perfectly no matter if analog or digital. During the 1970's and early 80's rock bands used pure analog equipment for live shows until the class-Ds started being used. It was great. If you were lucky to have seen such shows ( eg. Rush, PinkFloyyd, Genesis ) you would understand there is a big difference. Greatfull Dead used the McIntosh MC-2300 Class-A I think. I was lucky enough to have caught the tail end and am interested in re-creating pure analog sound. If it can't be done, I want to learn why. If there are limitations, I need to understand them for my setup. There is a difference, since most will say digital is 'crisp, clean, sharp' and analog 'smooth, warm, natural' but can't put their finger on the difference. You can detect 8bit sound, so the brain must detect it up to a point, and the frequency is up for debate. Maybe we notice like the human ear can detect phase. I'm new to this and am in the process of understanding how the signal can remain analog from the instrument to the speaker. Do you think artists like Daftpunk spend $100,000 to have a custom analog synth only to feed the signal into a DSP filter and back to analog to the speakers? ( well I guess many do in the end ) Why DSP for home setup? I can understand for loud shows and clubs, and class D does sound great, but not warm, smooth and natural like live analog.
I do appreciate your opinion but I'm always skeptical of anything that comes with negative energy. Don't be mad, and let's be friends!
The only way to experience true analog ( guitar, piano, synth etc. ) is to do so live, since it's impossible to record perfectly no matter if analog or digital. During the 1970's and early 80's rock bands used pure analog equipment for live shows until the class-Ds started being used. It was great. If you were lucky to have seen such shows ( eg. Rush, PinkFloyyd, Genesis ) you would understand there is a big difference. Greatfull Dead used the McIntosh MC-2300 Class-A I think. I was lucky enough to have caught the tail end and am interested in re-creating pure analog sound. If it can't be done, I want to learn why. If there are limitations, I need to understand them for my setup. There is a difference, since most will say digital is 'crisp, clean, sharp' and analog 'smooth, warm, natural' but can't put their finger on the difference. You can detect 8bit sound, so the brain must detect it up to a point, and the frequency is up for debate. Maybe we notice like the human ear can detect phase. I'm new to this and am in the process of understanding how the signal can remain analog from the instrument to the speaker. Do you think artists like Daftpunk spend $100,000 to have a custom analog synth only to feed the signal into a DSP filter and back to analog to the speakers? ( well I guess many do in the end ) Why DSP for home setup? I can understand for loud shows and clubs, and class D does sound great, but not warm, smooth and natural like live analog.
I do appreciate your opinion but I'm always skeptical of anything that comes with negative energy. Don't be mad, and let's be friends!
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Very simple, because dsp is today on a point that an affordable device like the MiniDSP Flex is way beyond the resolution of our ears. That is a recent thing. 10 years ago those existed but they costed a fortune. But today, high quality digital is absolute transparent and affordable.
And Daft Punk uses both analog and digital devices in their studio setups, their recording happen all digitally. And the mastering engineer that master those probally also uses a lot of digital tools, so the music has been numerous times gone back and foth analog to digital before it reaches you...
And Daft Punk uses both analog and digital devices in their studio setups, their recording happen all digitally. And the mastering engineer that master those probally also uses a lot of digital tools, so the music has been numerous times gone back and foth analog to digital before it reaches you...
true, but what about live?
The only positives I've ever come across for Class D is they run cool, they are cheap and the 'DSP is so good you won't notice the digital sampling'... yet people still describe 1 as crip/clean and 1 as smotth/natural/warm. The same debate happens for digital/analog synths. The same points for both sides apply to digital/analog amps and speaker crossovers. The most valuable media for any artist is now analog recorded vinyl. ( even older copies ) Even with digital master, vinyls fetch the most money per copy for artists. There must be something there, maybe just for live. Why do folks want build a Class-A amp like the F5m? ( I suspect for the same reasons I'm looking at avoiding DSP )
The only positives I've ever come across for Class D is they run cool, they are cheap and the 'DSP is so good you won't notice the digital sampling'... yet people still describe 1 as crip/clean and 1 as smotth/natural/warm. The same debate happens for digital/analog synths. The same points for both sides apply to digital/analog amps and speaker crossovers. The most valuable media for any artist is now analog recorded vinyl. ( even older copies ) Even with digital master, vinyls fetch the most money per copy for artists. There must be something there, maybe just for live. Why do folks want build a Class-A amp like the F5m? ( I suspect for the same reasons I'm looking at avoiding DSP )
Almost nobody records full analog anymore. The machines needed are very old and complex and tape cost a fortune today.
But it's not because newer tech exist that older is unusable, and the hamonic distortion of a tube or class A amp colours the music in a way we humans often like. They may be technical inferior, but they still sound good in many cases. Idem with vinyl, or fullrange single driver speakers. They are not technical best, but they have their merits, and that is why they are still popular. Also for me.
Passive crossovers have for me also still a place, But it all depends on the setup and the goal of the speaker, now we have options and if needed we can have almost absolute perfect crossovers with modern tech if we do it right. With passive that is not possible, but you can get a long way towards that still (and that is often enough). There is no one best way for every case in audio, It all depends on the end goal.
But it's not because newer tech exist that older is unusable, and the hamonic distortion of a tube or class A amp colours the music in a way we humans often like. They may be technical inferior, but they still sound good in many cases. Idem with vinyl, or fullrange single driver speakers. They are not technical best, but they have their merits, and that is why they are still popular. Also for me.
Passive crossovers have for me also still a place, But it all depends on the setup and the goal of the speaker, now we have options and if needed we can have almost absolute perfect crossovers with modern tech if we do it right. With passive that is not possible, but you can get a long way towards that still (and that is often enough). There is no one best way for every case in audio, It all depends on the end goal.
I used to perform with my Ensoniz EPS synth with a Peavey MMA-875T class AB amp and a 0.5 cu ft box with a salvage projection TV speaker (full range) on one end. Commercial equivalent the visaton BG17-8. This all fit in the panniers (bags) of my bicycle, since I gave up driving a motor vehicle in 2008. MMA-875T has an output transformer on 8 ohms so no possibility of DC on speaker.
A diy amp that can't produce DC on speaker if a solder joint pops loose (has happened) is the Apex AX6.
Has a cap series the speaker, and easy to find cheap transformer with no center tap. Sounds great. I don't look for warm in an amp, I look for accurate. My vacuum tube ST70 is not as pleasing as the AX6. ST70 has 1.5% HD.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/236256-retro-amp-50w-single-supply-42.html
My synthesizer was taken to his fence by my local unemployed housepainter during covid19. Along with 2200 analog LP, the new ones never played with any cartridge over 1.5 g. Beatles, Stones, Beachboys, Duran Duran, Elton John, Joan Jett, Rudolf Serkin, Philippe Entrmont all totally undamaged. The MJ15015 and MJ21194/5 TO3 transistors were hauled to the steel scrap yard where they went for $200 a ton. Now I perform on Baldwin Sohmer & Chickering pianos which are too heavy to steal. Performance venues are limited, 500 venue in two counties have Yamaha pianos which (except the 11' grand) sound like ****.
When I prototype a 2 way speaker I use a EQ-215 analog equalizer to work out the frequency modifications necessary. 2 amp channels, one woofer, one tweeter. Before spending a lot on crossover parts. Peavey got away with 4 crossover parts on SP2-XT, one a tungsten bulb to protect the tweeter from bangs.
A diy amp that can't produce DC on speaker if a solder joint pops loose (has happened) is the Apex AX6.
Has a cap series the speaker, and easy to find cheap transformer with no center tap. Sounds great. I don't look for warm in an amp, I look for accurate. My vacuum tube ST70 is not as pleasing as the AX6. ST70 has 1.5% HD.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/236256-retro-amp-50w-single-supply-42.html
My synthesizer was taken to his fence by my local unemployed housepainter during covid19. Along with 2200 analog LP, the new ones never played with any cartridge over 1.5 g. Beatles, Stones, Beachboys, Duran Duran, Elton John, Joan Jett, Rudolf Serkin, Philippe Entrmont all totally undamaged. The MJ15015 and MJ21194/5 TO3 transistors were hauled to the steel scrap yard where they went for $200 a ton. Now I perform on Baldwin Sohmer & Chickering pianos which are too heavy to steal. Performance venues are limited, 500 venue in two counties have Yamaha pianos which (except the 11' grand) sound like ****.
When I prototype a 2 way speaker I use a EQ-215 analog equalizer to work out the frequency modifications necessary. 2 amp channels, one woofer, one tweeter. Before spending a lot on crossover parts. Peavey got away with 4 crossover parts on SP2-XT, one a tungsten bulb to protect the tweeter from bangs.
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Pure analog for recording is still available and some of us are still recording, mixing, and producing production tapes (for copy purposes I do 1/4 inch 2-track at 15ips). Thankfully there is still a company in PA that produces new tape.
@roboDNA: Impressive studio space. Have got a moog sythesizer signed by Moog himself that was one of the first he produced after moving to Asheville. When you open it up, it's got more resistors than you can count. And when you turn it on, you think "that's the best analog synthesizer sound ever." Grew up with the Buchla monsters in college in the 70s and they were impressive machines -- would take up the whole room.
@waxx: When I tell people that I listen a lot to R2R tape and record on Otari 1/2 inch tape decks I often hear "doesn't the harmonic distortion bother you.?" And my answer is, no, hardly notice it when the machine is properly calibrated. Instead, I notice the realism that tape offers.
@roboDNA: Impressive studio space. Have got a moog sythesizer signed by Moog himself that was one of the first he produced after moving to Asheville. When you open it up, it's got more resistors than you can count. And when you turn it on, you think "that's the best analog synthesizer sound ever." Grew up with the Buchla monsters in college in the 70s and they were impressive machines -- would take up the whole room.
@waxx: When I tell people that I listen a lot to R2R tape and record on Otari 1/2 inch tape decks I often hear "doesn't the harmonic distortion bother you.?" And my answer is, no, hardly notice it when the machine is properly calibrated. Instead, I notice the realism that tape offers.
@Craigl59 That is totally amazing. I love the moog sound, specially the ladder filter. I tried to win the re-issue signed by GeddyLee but did not win. I'm so jealous of your Minimoog, and to think it's one of the first. So lucky of you. I have the whole ModelD circuit broken down into individual PCBs. ( my current clone build ) I can combine the parts in different/new ways to design new synths. ( ie. added LFO, 4th OSC, multiple VCF, 19" panel, eurorack etc. ) It's a 'side-project' for me but trying to get the boards production ready. I also have 'test boards' to ensure the whole synth sounds like it was designed to. Eg. You can pull off an osc board an place it on a test board to make sure it's working. A good friend of mine built the MODCAN synths, and I'm getting one of his 'first run' modules he's working on. He gets one of my new Clock Modules on steroids in exchange. 😉 Again, very cool you are knee deep in analog.
P.S. That is Joel Zimmerman's studio space. ( You'll notice the MODCAN synth is the large one to the far left )
P.S. That is Joel Zimmerman's studio space. ( You'll notice the MODCAN synth is the large one to the far left )
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I see this digital/ analog thing a bit different. If you have an analog music instrument with a sound you prefer, fine, use it. You are perfectly right to do so.
On the other hand, the "what is better" discussion ended for me in the late 80s. A 300 DM (about 600$ at that time) Ortofon moving coil cartridge was the last thing I bought for my record players. I used to do some small DJ stuff and my analog records had been used up over time. So it was easy for me to change over to digital.
I still remember that it was on a CD that I first realized how ugly some synthetic a drum computer sounded in many chart hits. While sounding nice on the car radio or PA, with my home audio some music was anoying because of these digital money savers. There is a whole lot of popular music I deeply dislike, because the producer did not hire a drummer and replaced real musicians by using a computer. You see, I understand what you talk about.
Maybe try not to mix digital storage and reproduction and digital gear to create music. While one thing is a blessing, another can be a curse, but both are called "Digital". Don't call a D-amp "digital", it is not and has nothing to do with digital music.
By the way, my first 100% analog concert was in a boxing arena. The Rolling Stones in Hamburg. 14th of September 1970. I think this was the day in I understood music, real music, for the first time. You may be right, the live sound had not gotten any better in 1998, but it was open air that year with the Stones.
The PA systems of these analog times where basically the same that we used in clubs, just staples of them.
Today live sound is in most cases unbearable for any serious listener. I had to go with my kids to some of "their" concerts. Ridiculous what they call PA sound today. Is it the digital gear? No. It is value reduced content, artists that don't deserve the name and sound engineers in the FOH that lost their hearing years ago. Probably the sound man hates that music anyway.
On the other hand, the "what is better" discussion ended for me in the late 80s. A 300 DM (about 600$ at that time) Ortofon moving coil cartridge was the last thing I bought for my record players. I used to do some small DJ stuff and my analog records had been used up over time. So it was easy for me to change over to digital.
I still remember that it was on a CD that I first realized how ugly some synthetic a drum computer sounded in many chart hits. While sounding nice on the car radio or PA, with my home audio some music was anoying because of these digital money savers. There is a whole lot of popular music I deeply dislike, because the producer did not hire a drummer and replaced real musicians by using a computer. You see, I understand what you talk about.
Maybe try not to mix digital storage and reproduction and digital gear to create music. While one thing is a blessing, another can be a curse, but both are called "Digital". Don't call a D-amp "digital", it is not and has nothing to do with digital music.
By the way, my first 100% analog concert was in a boxing arena. The Rolling Stones in Hamburg. 14th of September 1970. I think this was the day in I understood music, real music, for the first time. You may be right, the live sound had not gotten any better in 1998, but it was open air that year with the Stones.
The PA systems of these analog times where basically the same that we used in clubs, just staples of them.
Today live sound is in most cases unbearable for any serious listener. I had to go with my kids to some of "their" concerts. Ridiculous what they call PA sound today. Is it the digital gear? No. It is value reduced content, artists that don't deserve the name and sound engineers in the FOH that lost their hearing years ago. Probably the sound man hates that music anyway.
@Turbowatch2 that show must have been quite something. ( that is the kind of analog I'm talking 😉 You are lucky to have seen them. I saw them twice but in the 90's in a stadium. I recall seeing Rush at the Montreal Forum on Catherine st. The whole building would rumble when Geddy pressed the synth bass pedals. ( moog ) I call Class D digital due to the digital filter it requires to work ( pwm ). I guess the DSP/filter firmware has improved so much in the last few years, everyone is using them since they sound much better than before, and great enough to start wars in audio forums. Even my friend that builds analog synths for a living does not see it 100% my way. Like a high res image vs a painting I guess. something like that.
In the meantime, I have my old infiniti speakers to test my F5m build. I'll wait to power up my new speakers until I finish and test the F5m since I don't trust the 30 year old Techniques amp. It would need a once-over before connecting to these speakers. I don't want them to lose their 'Pizzazz' to use a technical term.
@Craigl59 that is funny. Can you imagine the look on my face when I first powered up my own model D boards and that sound came out of them? Damn. I still can't believe it to this day. The magic really happens when you enable 3 Oscillators at the same time and the thing starts to 'worbble' like Welcome to the Machine.
I had recorded it:
In the meantime, I have my old infiniti speakers to test my F5m build. I'll wait to power up my new speakers until I finish and test the F5m since I don't trust the 30 year old Techniques amp. It would need a once-over before connecting to these speakers. I don't want them to lose their 'Pizzazz' to use a technical term.
@Craigl59 that is funny. Can you imagine the look on my face when I first powered up my own model D boards and that sound came out of them? Damn. I still can't believe it to this day. The magic really happens when you enable 3 Oscillators at the same time and the thing starts to 'worbble' like Welcome to the Machine.
I had recorded it:
records today are sold cheap in streaming services. So all the industry is financially dried out.
No kid values music any more. And if using streaming you can access abundantly all and everything switching between records without getting familiar to the sound.
No kid values music any more. And if using streaming you can access abundantly all and everything switching between records without getting familiar to the sound.
@Freedom666 true.
I know Moog made a Class-A amp ( Moog 301A I think ) for their synths at one point, and I'm still trying to find a schematic or details. It must have been a tube amp. It would give me an idea of how they envisioned the analog signal traveling all the way to the speakers at that time. It may not be the best way to do it today, but it's what I initially wanted to get but could not find it. I came across the F5m and am building that.
Now that I think of it, that original moog synth amp would make a great DIY project for all those analog synth nerds out there such as myself. Not sure how many of us our left. ( echo...echo...echo...)
I know Moog made a Class-A amp ( Moog 301A I think ) for their synths at one point, and I'm still trying to find a schematic or details. It must have been a tube amp. It would give me an idea of how they envisioned the analog signal traveling all the way to the speakers at that time. It may not be the best way to do it today, but it's what I initially wanted to get but could not find it. I came across the F5m and am building that.
Now that I think of it, that original moog synth amp would make a great DIY project for all those analog synth nerds out there such as myself. Not sure how many of us our left. ( echo...echo...echo...)
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