I was told years ago; when I was at trade school; that you only really know how much you know when you have to teach some-one else.
He was correct, I find I need to double check everything before posting but I've got the intuitive feeling that some things can be best explained in person, "hands on"
As I've said in earlier threads I like to tinker, so the iterative process to get things right doesn't bother me, others like to get it right the first go and tinkering would probably drive them crazy.
He was correct, I find I need to double check everything before posting but I've got the intuitive feeling that some things can be best explained in person, "hands on"
As I've said in earlier threads I like to tinker, so the iterative process to get things right doesn't bother me, others like to get it right the first go and tinkering would probably drive them crazy.
Moondog55 said:
Sure would like to
But the way it is, dustress using calculators and a bit of ears, and no measurements, dustress is the one with ears, and the only person who knows how it sounds and be the judge of what to do
But at the moment he is not telling us much about what he is actually doing, or hearing
We can only try to teach him a bit about how its all working in theory, giving him a small chance to do whats needed
But he is the one to do all the work
Its a very long process, experimenting and learning how the speaker reacts to certain changes
I admit, I use my ears, I have done so fore years, and believe I have learned enough to make it work
But even if it sounds like its working perfectly, I still dont know how it looks fore real
But it sounds good to me, so I dont care
Ufortunately the doubt of it all seems to always be there
Even so, if I used measurements I am not sure at all that I would entirely trust them enough to completely rely on them
But in between it sure would be nice to have some kinds of measurements
Ok I got my new components and it sounds better but not perfect yet. My mid is getting a lot of power it is louder than my other speakers. It will distort before my woofer can give its potential. I now have a 10 mh coil on the woofer and also put a 32 mf cap in parallel with it. I also changed the cap on the mid from 100 to 80 mf. Other than the mid being to loud it sounds good. About the tweeter I was hoping in keeping that one but if I cant get everything to work out then I would buy another. tinitus earlier you mentioned about a coil in parallel and a resistor in series. Is that for the mid. Would it be to help the mid from peaking? How small of a coil?
Thank you
Dustin
Thank you
Dustin
OK Dustin, you need to give us some more information and this time we need specific information.
also most folks here are from Europe and we tend to be more comfortable with Metric so could you please give us the volume of the mid-range box in liters??
A first order won't work on the bandpass for the mid, it allows too much bass through.
let us know what you have there in the way of caps and coils, perhaps we can give you some clues.
Be analytical about the sound you're hearing as well, what does it do when you play your favourite music through them, for that matter what is your favourite music, that will have a lot of bearing on what information we might want to give you.
10mH + 32uF is somewhere around 250 Hz, which I think is the right spot, the mid-range then needs to be allowed to play those frequencies above 265/280 NO OVER_LAP
80uF is book value first order for 250 Hz, but first order won't work and 33uF is next standard value capacitor.
So try 33uF in series with same 10mH coil for a second order Linkwitz-Riley crossover, but that is too close as it is 250Hz also, so try the 8.5mH coil you had before, in parallel with the mid and use variuos values for the capacitor starting with 22uF and working up, stop and listen to the music for a few minutes every time you make a change .
For the moment leave the tweeter disconnected get the Mid-range woofer balance correct first.
Keep at it
Ted
also most folks here are from Europe and we tend to be more comfortable with Metric so could you please give us the volume of the mid-range box in liters??
A first order won't work on the bandpass for the mid, it allows too much bass through.
let us know what you have there in the way of caps and coils, perhaps we can give you some clues.
Be analytical about the sound you're hearing as well, what does it do when you play your favourite music through them, for that matter what is your favourite music, that will have a lot of bearing on what information we might want to give you.
10mH + 32uF is somewhere around 250 Hz, which I think is the right spot, the mid-range then needs to be allowed to play those frequencies above 265/280 NO OVER_LAP
80uF is book value first order for 250 Hz, but first order won't work and 33uF is next standard value capacitor.
So try 33uF in series with same 10mH coil for a second order Linkwitz-Riley crossover, but that is too close as it is 250Hz also, so try the 8.5mH coil you had before, in parallel with the mid and use variuos values for the capacitor starting with 22uF and working up, stop and listen to the music for a few minutes every time you make a change .
For the moment leave the tweeter disconnected get the Mid-range woofer balance correct first.
Keep at it
Ted
dustruss said:
You can pad down the mid with resistors in the same manner as the tweeter, may help a bit
But its most likely you have a mid peak and or rising response, would actually be strange if not
It may in som cases be handled by a big series inductor, but also by a notch curcuit
Do you have RC on mid, its really important you have
Alternatively just a paralel cap, but I like resistors
Yes you could also have a paralel inductor at the mid series cap, alternatively with a resistor
Value is hard to determine, but a bit smaller than your woofer series inductor, which becomes expencive
But your mid series cap may simply be just a bit too big
The tweeter paralel inductor should most likely be around 0.2-0.3mH
A series resistor could be a value just above driver impedance, which could anything from 4-10ohm, but you may not need it
I can see that others are beginning to use series resistor on paralel inductors, but still rather small values
You could also try RC on tweeter, cap and resistor in paralel with signal
Some think its rubbish, but I know it works, and more people are using it
It works by taming some coil/"motor" induction related issues, and sound seems smoother
Values are small around 2-3uf, and resistor value as described earlier, somewhere above driver impedance
Harshness could also relate to xo phase issues
I hope I got all this this right
Ok the total volume of the box is 110 liters (not including mid enclosure) . The inside volume of the mid enlclosure is 4.4 liters and it has a outside volume of 6.9 liters. Including mid enclosure the box has a volume of 103.1. Moondog I think you want to know all the different components I have. I Have four air core inductors with levels .45,.55,.80, and 1.0 mh. I have 3 Iron laminate inductors with levels 4.0, 4.5 and 10.0 mh. And I have a lot of different level caps. Im not sure if that was what you were asking. My favorite types of music are Rock and Rap. I would like my speaker to have a lot of bass to it. I changed the crossover to a second order. I attached a photo of my current crossover. I havent added a parallel rc because I need another resistor that I will go pick up tomorrow. I would like for the speaker to have more bass to it. The way it is set up right now my woofer is not getting used as much as I wish it was. My tweeter sounds very crisp and clean I like the way it sounds, I think I might change the series resistor from a 3 to a 4 ohm though to tune it down a little. My mid is louder than the other speakers still, It is getting less bass than it did before which is good. It sounds clear but will be the first speaker to distort when I increase the volume. I think when I add the rc that should help with that. As soon as I put it on I will post to see if it helped at all, im hoping that it does. I have not been able to find the response curve for the Mid, the alesis 5 1/4 woofer, do any of you have any ideas of where I could find it.
Dustin
Dustin
Attachments
Hmmmmmmm! you must like your music seriously loud.
When you say you would like more bass, is it kick-drum or low notes on a bass guitar you would like to emphasize?
Is it the placement perhaps of your speakers , are the out in the room or in corners out in the room for vocals in corners for bass is old advice but reasonably accurate.
Suggested listing what you had in case a suggestion could be made using what was at hand.
I confess I don't understand the L-pad you have on the mid, but as Tinitus suggested, try various values of capacitor after that parallel resistor to see if it helps.
Rock music often sounds best on systems that have a too small box with the peak in response associated with what a called "High Q" boxes, you could add another woofer, do you have the funds to buy another, or make the box smaller by adding something bulky like a foam box ( an old cooler for instance )
When you say you would like more bass, is it kick-drum or low notes on a bass guitar you would like to emphasize?
Is it the placement perhaps of your speakers , are the out in the room or in corners out in the room for vocals in corners for bass is old advice but reasonably accurate.
Suggested listing what you had in case a suggestion could be made using what was at hand.
I confess I don't understand the L-pad you have on the mid, but as Tinitus suggested, try various values of capacitor after that parallel resistor to see if it helps.
Rock music often sounds best on systems that have a too small box with the peak in response associated with what a called "High Q" boxes, you could add another woofer, do you have the funds to buy another, or make the box smaller by adding something bulky like a foam box ( an old cooler for instance )
Ehhh, series cap on tweeter...3.8uf thats probably too small
The same fore paralel cap on mid...probably too small
Also, it can be exstremely important to find the just right value fore the paralel pad resistor on tweet and mid...may work wonders to spend a little time trying a bit different values
A little trick I use
When trying to find out whether a resistor needs to be bigger or smaller, I hold a bigger resistor paralel onto the one I want to examine
This way I am mostly able to detect if it should be smaller or bigger
I do the same thing with caps...I just use a little cap fore that
It doesnt always work, and though I may think a component needs to bigger, it sometimes end with being smaller instead
The funny thing is that, despite the fact that I may be placed at the side of the speaker when listening fore adjustments, just sticking my head towards the speaker front, it actually seems to work fine
In short that means what I hear at the side of the speaker also works in the listening position
It takes time, an almost never ending process
thats probably too smallThe same fore paralel cap on mid...probably too small
Also, it can be exstremely important to find the just right value fore the paralel pad resistor on tweet and mid...may work wonders to spend a little time trying a bit different values
A little trick I use
When trying to find out whether a resistor needs to be bigger or smaller, I hold a bigger resistor paralel onto the one I want to examine
This way I am mostly able to detect if it should be smaller or bigger
I do the same thing with caps...I just use a little cap fore that
It doesnt always work, and though I may think a component needs to bigger, it sometimes end with being smaller instead
The funny thing is that, despite the fact that I may be placed at the side of the speaker when listening fore adjustments, just sticking my head towards the speaker front, it actually seems to work fine
In short that means what I hear at the side of the speaker also works in the listening position
It takes time, an almost never ending process
I forgot
I mostly do adjustment to one speakers only, then listen to both in the listening position, before changing the other speaker
Another "trick" I use, is to stand about 1 meter in front of the one speaker that I have adjusted, bend down and listen at level of each individul driver
And at last moving up and down, listeng fore the character of each speaker and the change in sound at the different level
At best the sound character doesnt change much, no matter what height you are listening at...at 1meter distance
Doing that on both speakers, sligtly differently adjusted it seems with practice quite easy to hear whats going on in each speaker, and judge which one is best
Sometimes it doesnt turn out that way, and I need to go in opposite direction
And you need to know that in a speaker everything is connected to each other
So whenever you change anything, it turns out something else have changed too, and may need attention
Now, who can wonder that it took me more than 5years to get my speakers in a state where I am confident that theres no more to gain with that particular design and drivers
I mostly do adjustment to one speakers only, then listen to both in the listening position, before changing the other speaker
Another "trick" I use, is to stand about 1 meter in front of the one speaker that I have adjusted, bend down and listen at level of each individul driver
And at last moving up and down, listeng fore the character of each speaker and the change in sound at the different level
At best the sound character doesnt change much, no matter what height you are listening at...at 1meter distance
Doing that on both speakers, sligtly differently adjusted it seems with practice quite easy to hear whats going on in each speaker, and judge which one is best
Sometimes it doesnt turn out that way, and I need to go in opposite direction
And you need to know that in a speaker everything is connected to each other
So whenever you change anything, it turns out something else have changed too, and may need attention
Now, who can wonder that it took me more than 5years to get my speakers in a state where I am confident that theres no more to gain with that particular design and drivers
I think the speaker sound really good right now. There is only one problem. On one rap song for some reason my tweeter sounds very distored. It sounds distorted every time bass will hit. Its not the song either becasue it doesnt happen in my other speakers. That is the only song that does this. I have listened to many songs and they all sound very good. I only have the L-pad and the 3.8 cap on the tweeter. Tintitus you said that the 3.8 was to small but if I increase it I think it will let lower frequencies through the tweeter and I think that might cause distortion. Do you have any ideas on why the tweeter is being distorted. Oh yeah the tweeter is distorted even when the volume is very low.(on that one song)
Thank you
Dustin
Thank you
Dustin
dustruss said:
Dont play that song
I cant say if that cap on tweeter could be faulty somehow
Been said before
you really do need a small coil paralel to tweeter...0.2-03 mH maybe with a series resistor to ground
Then it wont be any problem to increase series cap a bit
"Normally" a tweeter series cap is 5.6-8.6, but ofcourse depending on impedance
You really should try an RC on tweeter
RC is a cap and resistor, in series with each other, resistor to ground, all in paralel with driver
Cap could be maybe 2.2uf and resistor 8.2-10 ohm, most likely or there about
Fore absolute ultimate sound I wont have any multiple paraleled components, be it caps or resistors, it simply doesnt sound the best, my ears rings when doing that
I cant accept anything but standard value, and adjust filter accordingly to make that possible
dustruss said:
That woofer spike...
It would probbaly be very good if you played a bit with this notch curcuit, it really works wonders
Its a paralel notch and should be in series with driver, after the paralel cap
You need to eksperiment a bit to make it work best, but I dont doubt that you will know when it works as supposed
These simple calculators are only to be used as a rough guidence, but I like them
I think some of the features are great fun, and quite usefull actually
though some of the shown curcuits looks a bit strange to me
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/english/index_tools.htm
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Ok, I forgot that the above notch is somehting I came up with by chance, and there is no calculators fore it on that site
btw, Troels seems to like that curcuit too
Only, you must not trust a calculation too much, but should experiment a bit, and listen
The paralel notch shown below can be found, look fore "frequency response leveller"
btw, Troels seems to like that curcuit too
Only, you must not trust a calculation too much, but should experiment a bit, and listen
The paralel notch shown below can be found, look fore "frequency response leveller"
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Moondog55 said:
Actually there could be
The other day I listened a concert
A big live event with all the new starts on danish pop scene
Very nice music
What made it even more special was that it was in a brand new concert hall
All musicians were very scared at first, because the concert hall was built fore classical music, and they expected problems with acoustics
Man, I tell it sounded absolutely fantastic, with ALL performers
A lot better than they do in the radio
It was as if all performers even played better than usually, everyone sounded just right, not a single tone out of key, perfect all the way
What really surpriced me was that with a little cheap TV and digital receiver, ofcourse connected to my stereo, it was quite easy to actually "hear" the sound of the concert hall...totally different from what I am used to with other good TV "live concerts"
Yes, I was sitting at home listening, and knew excactly how it sounded in the concert thall...amazing experience, and I sure hope there will be more...unfortunately with danish television I dont expect so
When I start system #2 I will definetly let you guys know. I am happy about the speakers performance. None of the speakers over power each other I think they mesh really nice. They sound better than all of the speakers I own. I am thinking about making another and using them as my mains. I am not sure yet though. I want to experiment more with speaker enclosures. I want to make a transmission line enclosure and maybe one with a passive radiator. I want to hear the difference between them. I wish you guys could hear how it sounded. I will be away from my house for a couple weeks but when I get back I will post pictures of it. Thanks again for all the help.
Dustin Russell
Dustin Russell
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