By the way Christoff, i have an uncle that came from Bayern
And i think can be the same place.
His name is Herbert Schroll
Living 45 years in Rio de Janeiro, i have two "chucrute" cousins that i love very much.
Is your region where BMW, Bayerish Motoren Werke, are beeig made?
Carlos
And i think can be the same place.
His name is Herbert Schroll
Living 45 years in Rio de Janeiro, i have two "chucrute" cousins that i love very much.
Is your region where BMW, Bayerish Motoren Werke, are beeig made?
Carlos
more on the manger:
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/manger.html
I used to be on the DIY speakers mailing list, and they talked about it there. From what I recall, a few people described it as rather 'dark' sounding, and others were suggesting that you needed a very good amplifier with a good 'slew rate'. I have no idea what that means, and frankly the entire discussion was about 5 levels above my technical understanding (which seems to happen a lot 😉 ). I'm sure someone here has used them though, they are not THAT expensive considering how much of the spectrum they cover for you.
http://www.e-speakers.com/products/manger.html
I used to be on the DIY speakers mailing list, and they talked about it there. From what I recall, a few people described it as rather 'dark' sounding, and others were suggesting that you needed a very good amplifier with a good 'slew rate'. I have no idea what that means, and frankly the entire discussion was about 5 levels above my technical understanding (which seems to happen a lot 😉 ). I'm sure someone here has used them though, they are not THAT expensive considering how much of the spectrum they cover for you.
Those words, i suppose, have no dictionaire... not sure
But i am 4.999 points under them...so, brother!, lets try to understand.
When we have darkness, images are not well defined, cannot see well...translated to sound, may be some mufled, low sound, loosing definition....slew rate is the how long one circuit in special or one system takes to reach the maximum voltage level in some wave form...it has relation with the speed of the circuit to follow the strong and fast variations we have in sound waves.... going from zero volts to maximum in a matter of some microseconds or even less than that.
Something good to write on specifications....but really...hehe.... speaker have terrible slew rate...so.....the more slew rate the amplifier can have..... the maximum speed, will be the diafragm cone excursion.
In hearing results, my opinion, around 5 levels down opinion, that this means in you years something of a mixture of nothing with some amount of anything.
regards,
Carlos
But i am 4.999 points under them...so, brother!, lets try to understand.
When we have darkness, images are not well defined, cannot see well...translated to sound, may be some mufled, low sound, loosing definition....slew rate is the how long one circuit in special or one system takes to reach the maximum voltage level in some wave form...it has relation with the speed of the circuit to follow the strong and fast variations we have in sound waves.... going from zero volts to maximum in a matter of some microseconds or even less than that.
Something good to write on specifications....but really...hehe.... speaker have terrible slew rate...so.....the more slew rate the amplifier can have..... the maximum speed, will be the diafragm cone excursion.
In hearing results, my opinion, around 5 levels down opinion, that this means in you years something of a mixture of nothing with some amount of anything.
regards,
Carlos
Carlos - let me clarify. I have never heard these speakers. I was quoting others who have heard them and some who own them. The 'dark' comment was not mine, but someone else's who had heard them. And the 'slew rate' comment was made by the owner of the Mangers. I believe he felt that the 'slew rate' of this driver (manger) was better than that of many amplifiers. I don't know how true/false that may be, though I was at the time, and remain, skeptical about it.
Carlos,
You`re almost right. It has something to do with small and a little with coconut too - it means something like "little stubborn head" but in an affectionate sense.
Not only this is spot on
, I also like the sound of the word so I have nothing against it being called that way. Yes, that`s Munich. I`m working there and I live about 40km south of it.
The "slew-rate" thing is only one part of the Manger story.
The Manger is one unique design in speaker construction.
I`d call the Manger the only really fundamental innovation in speaker industry that has happened over the past decades.
I don`t think there is anything that is only remotely similar.
As with any "new" (though Manger is not new, the MSW exists for more than 20 years) or otherwise "unusual" technology there is as much critism of the Manger as there is praise.
It`s for sure that the Manger isn`t the perfect speaker and that it is not for everybodys taste (soundwise) but for some it might be what comes closest to their vision of perfection.
Concerning "dark sounding" I wrote some impressions from own experience here (post 3 & 42):
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5803&highlight=
Carlos,
I´ve heard the Manger two times. Once in a recording studio in a complete box and the second time I`ve played with drivers only and compared to other speakers a few hours.
Much of what I think about the Manger You can read in the thread I´ve linked above.
As I said earlier the Manger is very controversial discussed and for sure it isn`t the perfect speaker but for me it is clear that the Manger does something what I´ve never experienced from other speakers.
They produce a truly coherent holographic picture where everything is in the right place and sized in correct proportions. Those sound pictures seem to be drawn very fast and effortless with natural colours. Everything just sounds very natural and authentic. You don´t get tired listening as its often the case with other speakers.
When one is used to mindblowing sensations and artifical special effects - nature can be very boring. When You don`t have (or lost) sense for the subtle beauty of natural sounding music this isn`t the speaker for You.
If You ever have the chance to listen to Mangers (and better, maybe even that You can compare against other speakers) I´d strongly suggest not to let pass that opportunity.
I read all you said, and all the the Manger thread
And all those informations puts me deeply excited with that Manger Speaker.
I am sorry to ask, but i had made some comparison to friends using Senheiser Microphones and recording was made in low level, 1.5 meter distant from drivers and recorded in the highest MP3 quality.
They could perceive the focusing i was telling them, related some amplifier under test...even using that awfull system of microphone recording and my friend heard using headphones connected in his computer.
Of course this is an awfull way to demonstrate things, nothing can substitute the correct place of audition.
But even in this "deep low quality levelling system".... the amplifier that demonstrate more focused sound related to metals, more precision in hi frequencies reproduction, harmonic contents that could made him (despite of Senheiser microphone) perceive the musical instrument characteristic.
The same way i can feel the difference between an acoustic bass related one electric bass sound, also the difference between a bottle with watter hitted related to a Marimba metal hit instrument, or a metal triangle used in Brasil....i can also, despite of the bad recording system used, perceive the "difference".
This way, having some recording made, mail it to me, some small sample of comparison between standard speaker and one Manger.
But i think you may not have, as the recording system is not so good...but i am sure, low leveled....under leveled, but sonic differences appear under this microphone test to...but only differences can be perceived, not more than that.
Many amplifiers sounds almost the same....but speakers are completelly diferent one related the other, so big are the variations, and a microphone cartridge can capture some difference.
Cannot perceive detail, image, and even hi harmonics, but can be better than nothing, as this driver is so rare as one "white fly" here, down in South America.
I have to "capture" the words meaning to understand the sound.
Cristoph, having a recording sample, send me, as my mail box is enormous, some Megabites will be enougth to perceive something.
I am asking you to send me the audio recording sample you have....if you have, of course.
I could perceive that the piano in one amplifier i assembled, was reproduced very clear....as listening very close to the piano.... i send the sample to a friend, he could perceive too... unfortunattelly i loose this sample, showing differences related two amplifiers under test, made with a friend's AKG microphone...my hard drive damaged and i lost a lot of good things.
I will be reading the link, to understand deeply the Manger construction.
I thank you very much...now, there´s one more ligth at the end of the tunnel, not only ESL.
I had never listened a single word related this speaker...and a read entire forum many times.....cannot understand how i could jump over this theme....i readed Solid State forum many times and do not remember that i jumped over Manger.
regards,
Carlos
And all those informations puts me deeply excited with that Manger Speaker.
I am sorry to ask, but i had made some comparison to friends using Senheiser Microphones and recording was made in low level, 1.5 meter distant from drivers and recorded in the highest MP3 quality.
They could perceive the focusing i was telling them, related some amplifier under test...even using that awfull system of microphone recording and my friend heard using headphones connected in his computer.
Of course this is an awfull way to demonstrate things, nothing can substitute the correct place of audition.
But even in this "deep low quality levelling system".... the amplifier that demonstrate more focused sound related to metals, more precision in hi frequencies reproduction, harmonic contents that could made him (despite of Senheiser microphone) perceive the musical instrument characteristic.
The same way i can feel the difference between an acoustic bass related one electric bass sound, also the difference between a bottle with watter hitted related to a Marimba metal hit instrument, or a metal triangle used in Brasil....i can also, despite of the bad recording system used, perceive the "difference".
This way, having some recording made, mail it to me, some small sample of comparison between standard speaker and one Manger.
But i think you may not have, as the recording system is not so good...but i am sure, low leveled....under leveled, but sonic differences appear under this microphone test to...but only differences can be perceived, not more than that.
Many amplifiers sounds almost the same....but speakers are completelly diferent one related the other, so big are the variations, and a microphone cartridge can capture some difference.
Cannot perceive detail, image, and even hi harmonics, but can be better than nothing, as this driver is so rare as one "white fly" here, down in South America.
I have to "capture" the words meaning to understand the sound.
Cristoph, having a recording sample, send me, as my mail box is enormous, some Megabites will be enougth to perceive something.
I am asking you to send me the audio recording sample you have....if you have, of course.
I could perceive that the piano in one amplifier i assembled, was reproduced very clear....as listening very close to the piano.... i send the sample to a friend, he could perceive too... unfortunattelly i loose this sample, showing differences related two amplifiers under test, made with a friend's AKG microphone...my hard drive damaged and i lost a lot of good things.
I will be reading the link, to understand deeply the Manger construction.
I thank you very much...now, there´s one more ligth at the end of the tunnel, not only ESL.
I had never listened a single word related this speaker...and a read entire forum many times.....cannot understand how i could jump over this theme....i readed Solid State forum many times and do not remember that i jumped over Manger.
regards,
Carlos
Till, i also think that one horn, or exponential shape in front of the speaker will..
Till, i also think that some horn, or an exponential shaped material in front of the speaker can turn it better and loud.
Also i think that, using this old trick (old 1900 phonograph) we can use lower power and the very best, some small, extra long excursion drivers made by Sony to boom boxes.
This small speaker is alike a small Gold Stone i have here.... unbeliavable bass can get out of that small piece of paper...maybe 3 inches diameter, rounded speaker, assembled inside one plastic....yeahhhh!...plastic box...well made, no vibrations... internally reinforced with some squared frame...and a long tube, going near the bottom end.....no dampimp material, except in small part, exactly where the tune duct finishes, almost touching the back panel....some damping close were the front panel touch the main box, four long screws attaching.
A wonderfull, clean, soft, precise bass came from this speaker, and can face bigger speaker easy...can go down 40 hertz.
I was imagining some speaker alike that with a horn in front of it...this kind of "BELL" shaped you use to do.... very pretty and interesting Till.
Small speaker will reduce the mass in movement problems, more rigidity to the diafragm too.
regards,
Carlos
Till, i also think that some horn, or an exponential shaped material in front of the speaker can turn it better and loud.
Also i think that, using this old trick (old 1900 phonograph) we can use lower power and the very best, some small, extra long excursion drivers made by Sony to boom boxes.
This small speaker is alike a small Gold Stone i have here.... unbeliavable bass can get out of that small piece of paper...maybe 3 inches diameter, rounded speaker, assembled inside one plastic....yeahhhh!...plastic box...well made, no vibrations... internally reinforced with some squared frame...and a long tube, going near the bottom end.....no dampimp material, except in small part, exactly where the tune duct finishes, almost touching the back panel....some damping close were the front panel touch the main box, four long screws attaching.
A wonderfull, clean, soft, precise bass came from this speaker, and can face bigger speaker easy...can go down 40 hertz.
I was imagining some speaker alike that with a horn in front of it...this kind of "BELL" shaped you use to do.... very pretty and interesting Till.
Small speaker will reduce the mass in movement problems, more rigidity to the diafragm too.
regards,
Carlos
Hello Till, can you send me your picture page adress again
I lost all my pictures, i have lost my entire HD last month.
And have not CD backup of everything i had.
I will be happy to see your pictures, your pretty house, and your equipments also.
You construct your enclosures with Wood, as i do also, but mine is some easy to work material...MDF, made of Sugar Cane powder...soft to work, and ligthweith too.
Your enclosures seems alike mine... "Spartan" design, Squared and without "foolishes" on it.
Mine follow Albert Speer 1000 years Reich!.... No!...do not like Nazi!... but i like Albert Speer designs and also Ferdinand Porshe, both worked for Hitler....but those made some contributions for manking.... in special the Volkswagen car...old beetle, bug, or other name...we made millions here... some 1969 models are beeing used as family cars now a days, so pretty as new!
See the picture, low resolution, and tell me if this remember your enclosures?
regards,
Carlos
I lost all my pictures, i have lost my entire HD last month.
And have not CD backup of everything i had.
I will be happy to see your pictures, your pretty house, and your equipments also.
You construct your enclosures with Wood, as i do also, but mine is some easy to work material...MDF, made of Sugar Cane powder...soft to work, and ligthweith too.
Your enclosures seems alike mine... "Spartan" design, Squared and without "foolishes" on it.
Mine follow Albert Speer 1000 years Reich!.... No!...do not like Nazi!... but i like Albert Speer designs and also Ferdinand Porshe, both worked for Hitler....but those made some contributions for manking.... in special the Volkswagen car...old beetle, bug, or other name...we made millions here... some 1969 models are beeing used as family cars now a days, so pretty as new!
See the picture, low resolution, and tell me if this remember your enclosures?
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Carlos,
I`m very sorry but I don`t have such a recording You`re talking about. Also I don`t own a Manger at the moment (but this will change at some time in the future).
For that matter maybe You could contact Charles (phase-accurate) who started the Manger thread. As far I know he owns a pair and may help You out or can provide more information about the Manger.
I know what You mean but I guess finally there is no way around listening to a Manger and to find out Yourself.
Though there is no really substitude for listening maybe some well written reviews or technical explanations in Your language would be in order meanwhile. You could even contact Manger asking about this, they should know if and what has been published in spanish (or if You want I can do this for You) .
Carlos,
I`m glad to see that You`re as excited as I was when I heard about this speaker the first time.
Although the Manger is now more than 20 years around IMO it still does not have all the attention it really deserves.
This might have something to do with what I said in my previous post. The Manger is so spectacular unspectacular that for many it just sounds boring.
Here some more about Manger (searching google You may come up with much more about Manger):
Acoustical Reality - by Josef Manger
Press Reviews
Manger & amplifiers
http://www.mangerusa.com/index.html
Find you, and that speaker made my day... i will have a special Sunday
I will be reading and having more ideas...i am constructing strange things too.
Do not tell anybody (hehe) i put two small speaker one facing the other... one low weigth tube conecting one related the other... in the middle, glued i have a papper panel.
I use that thing..will no show picture because awfull...to much dirty appearance...I use that "thing" inverted and in series, or, separated drivers this way.
One small class A amplifier, the left speaker in series with this one stage amplifier colector..... the rigth speaker connected to an adjustable power supply.....when the class A amplifier is switched on, 300 mA crossed the coil and push the other speaker cone too...they go out of their resting position....now i adjust the supply to make a counter force to return the driver to resting position.... it works!... and great!!!!
But do not tell anyone...sschhhh!... terrible secret!...this can be copied, no problem....i have another one much better!!!!
And this one is a secret...for a while.
That "Thing", in future will have interesting name, alike "Counter force gaussian spacial traveller with stabilizer"
regards,
Carlos
I will be reading and having more ideas...i am constructing strange things too.
Do not tell anybody (hehe) i put two small speaker one facing the other... one low weigth tube conecting one related the other... in the middle, glued i have a papper panel.
I use that thing..will no show picture because awfull...to much dirty appearance...I use that "thing" inverted and in series, or, separated drivers this way.
One small class A amplifier, the left speaker in series with this one stage amplifier colector..... the rigth speaker connected to an adjustable power supply.....when the class A amplifier is switched on, 300 mA crossed the coil and push the other speaker cone too...they go out of their resting position....now i adjust the supply to make a counter force to return the driver to resting position.... it works!... and great!!!!
But do not tell anyone...sschhhh!... terrible secret!...this can be copied, no problem....i have another one much better!!!!
And this one is a secret...for a while.
That "Thing", in future will have interesting name, alike "Counter force gaussian spacial traveller with stabilizer"
regards,
Carlos
some of those pictures are here
http://home.tu-clausthal.de/~tpa/Pass DIY/index.html
and there
http://home.tu-clausthal.de/~tpa/Pass DIY/index.html
Alles blau, everything blue, all rigth and thank you very much
Now, the loosen pictures are here again.
Pretty pictures, pretty place, the forest picture is very nice.
Also the Vogel are wonderfull, the artist could capture the "spirit", as in jungle, the animals do not have afraid of us...they came near, some birds goes to your hand.
I do not like to go to Amazon.... i start to think who is really animal...those ones i found there, flying, and having a good life...or if we are the animals.... that doubt tuns me nervous..i prefer do not think about that matter (running away from reality)
I thank you very much...i love wooden work you made in your amplifiers...pretty that one with the lamp on.....Pass design i suppose...i have schematic, thank you.
regards,
Carlos
Now, the loosen pictures are here again.
Pretty pictures, pretty place, the forest picture is very nice.
Also the Vogel are wonderfull, the artist could capture the "spirit", as in jungle, the animals do not have afraid of us...they came near, some birds goes to your hand.
I do not like to go to Amazon.... i start to think who is really animal...those ones i found there, flying, and having a good life...or if we are the animals.... that doubt tuns me nervous..i prefer do not think about that matter (running away from reality)
I thank you very much...i love wooden work you made in your amplifiers...pretty that one with the lamp on.....Pass design i suppose...i have schematic, thank you.
regards,
Carlos
Do not worry till, and be happy.
Your family pictures, are not to publish.
I thank you be the special kindness.
Someday i will be inside one car like that you showed me..."What a car!"
regards,
Carlos
Your family pictures, are not to publish.
I thank you be the special kindness.
Someday i will be inside one car like that you showed me..."What a car!"
regards,
Carlos
The Spark Audio Generator.
I think the image can be enougth to inform you all the idea.
But will try to put in English words:
One Hi Frequency Generator, working in Ultra Sonic Frequencies, the ones we cannot hear, will produce a Spark between two special adjustable gaps...They can be adjusted related their distance.
I suppose they will not make noise if not failing to reach the other pole...some alternate frequency will be crossing those poles, producing O3, that is Ozone Gaz, very good to Atmosphere.
This Gap is beeing modulated by your power amplifiers, as some transformer primary is going to amplifier output, and the oscilator supply DC is crossing the transformer primary, beeing modulated in amplitude by the audio.
You have some inaudible carrier.
If this carrier create some noise, you can use another sample of this high voltage oscilator, dividing the main generator in two outputs, each one going to its own spark plugs.
Now you have to invert the phase of the second Spark ...this way, Placing the secondary spark behind you, in oposite phase, the noise will be canceled....the second spark, the one behind you, cannot be modulated, and may be adjusted to same intensity related the front one...and this adjustment is made without audio modulation, and the meter is your ears adjusting to reach total silence.
Better than produce Ozone Gaz is that, the bigger the frequency, the lower the power needed, and also the wider the bandwidth, and one more good thing, some insects do not like hi frequency, also cats and dogs can be disturbed...hehe....that neighboor noise dog can turn crazy!!!
Some smell that can be result of your Wife's mother strong perfum, can be neutralized by the O3...the Ozone Gaz can destruct even barbecue odors.
This idea has not register, has not copyrigth and i cannot guarantee that will work and that is safe.
But, here is some idea,...i think this way i am beeing more fair, as i am burning Speaker image...but giving some possible solution to researchers.
I did not assemble that circuit, but i am sure it will work... as you can hear modulation near some transformers.... spikes will produce audio too.
In the Solid State, there are another speaker, very simple modification idea, incorporating small normal speaker counter acting, some Diafragm, and some idea of class A simple amplifier to drive the prototype...this one is already done, dirty construction, will not show picture for a while....and not perfect yet.
You can find in this adress:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46135
In the solid state forum something related this matter.
regards,
Carlos
I think the image can be enougth to inform you all the idea.
But will try to put in English words:
One Hi Frequency Generator, working in Ultra Sonic Frequencies, the ones we cannot hear, will produce a Spark between two special adjustable gaps...They can be adjusted related their distance.
I suppose they will not make noise if not failing to reach the other pole...some alternate frequency will be crossing those poles, producing O3, that is Ozone Gaz, very good to Atmosphere.
This Gap is beeing modulated by your power amplifiers, as some transformer primary is going to amplifier output, and the oscilator supply DC is crossing the transformer primary, beeing modulated in amplitude by the audio.
You have some inaudible carrier.
If this carrier create some noise, you can use another sample of this high voltage oscilator, dividing the main generator in two outputs, each one going to its own spark plugs.
Now you have to invert the phase of the second Spark ...this way, Placing the secondary spark behind you, in oposite phase, the noise will be canceled....the second spark, the one behind you, cannot be modulated, and may be adjusted to same intensity related the front one...and this adjustment is made without audio modulation, and the meter is your ears adjusting to reach total silence.
Better than produce Ozone Gaz is that, the bigger the frequency, the lower the power needed, and also the wider the bandwidth, and one more good thing, some insects do not like hi frequency, also cats and dogs can be disturbed...hehe....that neighboor noise dog can turn crazy!!!
Some smell that can be result of your Wife's mother strong perfum, can be neutralized by the O3...the Ozone Gaz can destruct even barbecue odors.
This idea has not register, has not copyrigth and i cannot guarantee that will work and that is safe.
But, here is some idea,...i think this way i am beeing more fair, as i am burning Speaker image...but giving some possible solution to researchers.
I did not assemble that circuit, but i am sure it will work... as you can hear modulation near some transformers.... spikes will produce audio too.
In the Solid State, there are another speaker, very simple modification idea, incorporating small normal speaker counter acting, some Diafragm, and some idea of class A simple amplifier to drive the prototype...this one is already done, dirty construction, will not show picture for a while....and not perfect yet.
You can find in this adress:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46135
In the solid state forum something related this matter.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Make it better, this is some evolution, to avoid phase canceling
This speaker, the first part, was already published in Solid State forum, as a thread called, "Amplifier do not need to distort 0.001 as speaker cannot reproduce that..."
Here, correction of speaker phase cancelling, using small horns to avoid that.
Carlos
This speaker, the first part, was already published in Solid State forum, as a thread called, "Amplifier do not need to distort 0.001 as speaker cannot reproduce that..."
Here, correction of speaker phase cancelling, using small horns to avoid that.
Carlos
Attachments
- Status
- Not open for further replies.