Hey there DIY-Audio-community
I’m a total beginner when it comes to Hifi-Projects but since my current setup is in desperate needs of some upgrades and I’m traditionally on the DIY-approach when it comes to “new” things, I thought about constructing my own speakers… how hard can it be? During my research with a lot of detours, the World Wide Web finally lead me to Charlie’s infamous jazzman design and I’m in quite in awe about the community surrounding the project, that is mainly based on this board. So into the rabbit-hole I went…
In a first instance, I was simply impressed by the aesthetics of this ESL, which is why I got completely lost in the project. After a first attempt to simply copy the design and therefor understand the design-choices made, I had a bit of an idea while researching for appropriate wires...
Since this is a one of a kind and my workshop is quite limited in size, I want to avoid the tensioning-jig that is usually necessary for the elongation of the single-stranded wire, by tensioning the wires within the actual Speaker.
So, in short this is the attempt to have a segmented wire-ESL with tensioned stranded wires.
By putting tension on the wires, one could also avoid a lot of the horizontal segmentation. The wire tensioning would be achieved by simple harp-pegs, that are screwed in the top of the speaker. This of course results in an odd number of wires per electrical segment. In my case 5 instead of 6 in the Jazzman-design, so my active diaphragm width is actually a bit smaller than the Jazzman-design. Nevertheless, I hope to be able to copy as much as possible from the original design, especially when it comes to electronics… Really not my expertise yet 🙁
This will be a hybrid design with open-baffle speakers. I do have four Peerless SLS 8 (830667) left, which I hope to be able to use. One idea is to use two dual speakers per speaker, the other idea is to integrate 1 per speaker and build a sub out of the remaining two. But I haven’t checked if the spl would be sufficient for an open-baffle design. Since this is really in the early stages of research, feedback is very welcome!
I’m probably in way over my head with this as a first project but maaaaaaaybe there is a chance for me to actually get these things running 🙂 And even if this is a dead end, it was quite a fun journey so far.
I have some drawings of the project attached.
Where I am at the moment:
I started a first prototype based on some leftover 22mm wood, some FLRY-A 0,5mm2, 1,55mm OD cables and some harp pegs. I build a quick router jig and milled one vertical segment. constant wire distance as well as looping of the cables is achieved by some 3D-printed parts.
After having tensioned a first loop, things look promising, after 3 days under tension the wires are still as straight as they can be. I had some problems with the wire snapping at the top in the beginning, which is in my opinion mainly due to friction in the 3D-printed parts and the loops around the nails. I’ll have to redesign this part in order to allow the wire to distribute its tension over the whole length. But I’m optimistic that I’ll achieve this in the next try.
I’m a total beginner when it comes to Hifi-Projects but since my current setup is in desperate needs of some upgrades and I’m traditionally on the DIY-approach when it comes to “new” things, I thought about constructing my own speakers… how hard can it be? During my research with a lot of detours, the World Wide Web finally lead me to Charlie’s infamous jazzman design and I’m in quite in awe about the community surrounding the project, that is mainly based on this board. So into the rabbit-hole I went…
In a first instance, I was simply impressed by the aesthetics of this ESL, which is why I got completely lost in the project. After a first attempt to simply copy the design and therefor understand the design-choices made, I had a bit of an idea while researching for appropriate wires...
Since this is a one of a kind and my workshop is quite limited in size, I want to avoid the tensioning-jig that is usually necessary for the elongation of the single-stranded wire, by tensioning the wires within the actual Speaker.
So, in short this is the attempt to have a segmented wire-ESL with tensioned stranded wires.
By putting tension on the wires, one could also avoid a lot of the horizontal segmentation. The wire tensioning would be achieved by simple harp-pegs, that are screwed in the top of the speaker. This of course results in an odd number of wires per electrical segment. In my case 5 instead of 6 in the Jazzman-design, so my active diaphragm width is actually a bit smaller than the Jazzman-design. Nevertheless, I hope to be able to copy as much as possible from the original design, especially when it comes to electronics… Really not my expertise yet 🙁
This will be a hybrid design with open-baffle speakers. I do have four Peerless SLS 8 (830667) left, which I hope to be able to use. One idea is to use two dual speakers per speaker, the other idea is to integrate 1 per speaker and build a sub out of the remaining two. But I haven’t checked if the spl would be sufficient for an open-baffle design. Since this is really in the early stages of research, feedback is very welcome!
I’m probably in way over my head with this as a first project but maaaaaaaybe there is a chance for me to actually get these things running 🙂 And even if this is a dead end, it was quite a fun journey so far.
I have some drawings of the project attached.
Where I am at the moment:
I started a first prototype based on some leftover 22mm wood, some FLRY-A 0,5mm2, 1,55mm OD cables and some harp pegs. I build a quick router jig and milled one vertical segment. constant wire distance as well as looping of the cables is achieved by some 3D-printed parts.
After having tensioned a first loop, things look promising, after 3 days under tension the wires are still as straight as they can be. I had some problems with the wire snapping at the top in the beginning, which is in my opinion mainly due to friction in the 3D-printed parts and the loops around the nails. I’ll have to redesign this part in order to allow the wire to distribute its tension over the whole length. But I’m optimistic that I’ll achieve this in the next try.
nice a 3d printer makes it almost penauts doing the wires 🙂 i really have to do something with it as well ! looks cool !
What I’m really thinking about at the moment is the electronics and supply side (amp, etc.) of the project, since I’m a total beginner and the budget is limited, this will be the deciding factor, if I can continue this project. The electronics for the speaker itself, as used in the jazzman seam feasible, highly functional and affordable, so I would basically like to copy those.
You can probably tell by the way I draw, that this is really not my home-ground 🙂
The bigger problem for me is where the signal is coming from. As mentioned above I don’t really have a lot of equipment. I’m currently listening with my Technics SU-V505 and my Dual704 with MC-Needle. And that’s about all I got when it comes to HIFI-equipment, and to be honest I like a slim setup. As I’ve understood correctly this Class-A Amp will be a problem in combination with the loads of the ESL. So one of the main challenges will be to find a reasonably priced amplifier for the speakers, which could pose a real problem…
Haven’t really found a solution yet, but assuming I could get my head into amplifier-design, a first sketch after reading through various projects and copying a few ideas seemed to have worked in the past, an ideal amp would somewhat look like the following:
The Idea to have a digital crossover early in the signal makes sense for me. I could see myself fiddling around with a small DSP-board in order to design a 3-way crossover. But I am a bit worried about "analog to digital do analog"-loss.
Calvin, a user from this board, whose posts and projects I'm following with great admiration, proposed the solution of the T12-2 boards to handle the difficult loads. The easier loads and the maybe less important frequencies would be handled by some class-D amps.
Input wise I would like to have phono, aux and bluetooth (yeah, I know...). I actually do have an old and non-functional SU-V505 that I could source for parts. Especially the phono pre-amp with neat mm/mc selector and maybe the transformer may be used?
I know I'm really jumping ahead a few steps with this, but this sketch is mainly designed for me to see where the budget is heading. Bit afraid to have finished speakers, that I can't afford to drive 🙂 I’m well aware that there are a lot of faults in the sketches above, but my experience is, that input at an early stage of the design-process coming from all directions can really elevate a project.
So please feel free to criticize and stop me at any point.
You can probably tell by the way I draw, that this is really not my home-ground 🙂
The bigger problem for me is where the signal is coming from. As mentioned above I don’t really have a lot of equipment. I’m currently listening with my Technics SU-V505 and my Dual704 with MC-Needle. And that’s about all I got when it comes to HIFI-equipment, and to be honest I like a slim setup. As I’ve understood correctly this Class-A Amp will be a problem in combination with the loads of the ESL. So one of the main challenges will be to find a reasonably priced amplifier for the speakers, which could pose a real problem…
Haven’t really found a solution yet, but assuming I could get my head into amplifier-design, a first sketch after reading through various projects and copying a few ideas seemed to have worked in the past, an ideal amp would somewhat look like the following:
The Idea to have a digital crossover early in the signal makes sense for me. I could see myself fiddling around with a small DSP-board in order to design a 3-way crossover. But I am a bit worried about "analog to digital do analog"-loss.
Calvin, a user from this board, whose posts and projects I'm following with great admiration, proposed the solution of the T12-2 boards to handle the difficult loads. The easier loads and the maybe less important frequencies would be handled by some class-D amps.
Input wise I would like to have phono, aux and bluetooth (yeah, I know...). I actually do have an old and non-functional SU-V505 that I could source for parts. Especially the phono pre-amp with neat mm/mc selector and maybe the transformer may be used?
I know I'm really jumping ahead a few steps with this, but this sketch is mainly designed for me to see where the budget is heading. Bit afraid to have finished speakers, that I can't afford to drive 🙂 I’m well aware that there are a lot of faults in the sketches above, but my experience is, that input at an early stage of the design-process coming from all directions can really elevate a project.
So please feel free to criticize and stop me at any point.
Others' ingenuity never ceases to amaze me.
I really like your wire guides, and your design leverages your labor very efficiently.
I initially wanted to use 5-wire groups but eneded up with 6-wire groupings, as each loop then starts and ends at the same end of the panel, which considerably simiplied the resistor connections.
Your speaker looks really nice and accurate.
I like it!
I really like your wire guides, and your design leverages your labor very efficiently.
I initially wanted to use 5-wire groups but eneded up with 6-wire groupings, as each loop then starts and ends at the same end of the panel, which considerably simiplied the resistor connections.
Your speaker looks really nice and accurate.
I like it!
🫣 thanks i'm very honored by your reply 🙂
Maybe a few questions:
1. I calculated the resistors with the esl-seg ui Tool and received an R=108. But i'm Not Sure i took the correct width. Could you Check the First drawing? How exact does one have to be? E.g. if i use 100kOhm instead of 108kOhm?
2. The insulation of the wires is very thin. I'm afraid, that It could be damaged at the top and bare wire would touch the Steel-pegs. Apart from being dangerous, any leakage issues?
3. Any advice on the woofers? Dual-woofers vs. Single woofers + ripol?
Maybe a few questions:
1. I calculated the resistors with the esl-seg ui Tool and received an R=108. But i'm Not Sure i took the correct width. Could you Check the First drawing? How exact does one have to be? E.g. if i use 100kOhm instead of 108kOhm?
2. The insulation of the wires is very thin. I'm afraid, that It could be damaged at the top and bare wire would touch the Steel-pegs. Apart from being dangerous, any leakage issues?
3. Any advice on the woofers? Dual-woofers vs. Single woofers + ripol?
Travis,
The Segmented ESL Calculator uses the standard plate-capacitor formula to derive the total capacitance based on the area of the plates and the gap between them, and then divides that by the number of electrical segments to derive the feed resistance "R".
The calculator inputs required for the capacitance calculation are height, width, and gap. The height and width should include only those areas actually occupied by wires (exluding extraneous spaces). In this case, the width would be the combined widths of the 3 wire sections.
Your sketch specifies the widths of the three vertical cell openings as 83mm (including the space between the wires and opening edges on either side) but doesn't specify the actual widths of the wire sections. So; you will have to measure the actual wire section widths and combine those for your width input. For example: My panel opening is 10.5 inches wide, including spaces on either side of each wire section, but the area actually occupied by the wire sections adds up to only 8.3 inches, so my Calculator width input is 8.3 inches.
In your case the length is a bit uncertain due the areas where the loops wrap over the pins being recessed (increasing the gap in those areas). Nonetheless, I would include these areas in your the length input to the Calculator (length = total length of wire loops).
If you input the correct length, width & gap into the Calculator, the calculated "R" value will be in the ball park and should work out fine. I don't think it's all that critical.
As for potential arcing between the metal pins (assuming leakage through the wire insulation to the pins occurs);
I would be more concerned about arcing from the pins to the diaphragm than arcing pin-to-pin. It's good that you recessed those areas away from the diapragm.
I can't tell from your drawing how far you recessed the pins away from the diaphragm but;
Let's say your desgined diaphragm-to-stator gap (d/s) is 0.063" and the [recessed] pins-to-diaphragm gap is 0.093"-- providing an additional 0.020" of space which you might want to fill with an insulator. You could then glue down a strip of 0.020" an unsulating plastic to fill that gap an provide a bit of insurance against arcing. Just a thought...
As for woofers; there are so many choices there...
It looks like your bass section will be an open baffle, which will exhibit a dipole roll off, so you can't expect much output below about 70Hz anyway. That being the case; the priority for the woofer choice shifts to acheiving the most seamless blend with stat panel in the crossover band.
I suggest a woofer having a well damped suspention, good transient response, and good top end extension rather than a woofer with a floppy suspension designed for deep bass.
I would choose a mid-bass woofer with a Qts between 0.35 and 0.55 a voice coil inductance < 1.0 mH.
I would also add a sub, or better yet... a pair of RiPol subs 🙂
Charlie
The Segmented ESL Calculator uses the standard plate-capacitor formula to derive the total capacitance based on the area of the plates and the gap between them, and then divides that by the number of electrical segments to derive the feed resistance "R".
The calculator inputs required for the capacitance calculation are height, width, and gap. The height and width should include only those areas actually occupied by wires (exluding extraneous spaces). In this case, the width would be the combined widths of the 3 wire sections.
Your sketch specifies the widths of the three vertical cell openings as 83mm (including the space between the wires and opening edges on either side) but doesn't specify the actual widths of the wire sections. So; you will have to measure the actual wire section widths and combine those for your width input. For example: My panel opening is 10.5 inches wide, including spaces on either side of each wire section, but the area actually occupied by the wire sections adds up to only 8.3 inches, so my Calculator width input is 8.3 inches.
In your case the length is a bit uncertain due the areas where the loops wrap over the pins being recessed (increasing the gap in those areas). Nonetheless, I would include these areas in your the length input to the Calculator (length = total length of wire loops).
If you input the correct length, width & gap into the Calculator, the calculated "R" value will be in the ball park and should work out fine. I don't think it's all that critical.
As for potential arcing between the metal pins (assuming leakage through the wire insulation to the pins occurs);
I would be more concerned about arcing from the pins to the diaphragm than arcing pin-to-pin. It's good that you recessed those areas away from the diapragm.
I can't tell from your drawing how far you recessed the pins away from the diaphragm but;
Let's say your desgined diaphragm-to-stator gap (d/s) is 0.063" and the [recessed] pins-to-diaphragm gap is 0.093"-- providing an additional 0.020" of space which you might want to fill with an insulator. You could then glue down a strip of 0.020" an unsulating plastic to fill that gap an provide a bit of insurance against arcing. Just a thought...
As for woofers; there are so many choices there...
It looks like your bass section will be an open baffle, which will exhibit a dipole roll off, so you can't expect much output below about 70Hz anyway. That being the case; the priority for the woofer choice shifts to acheiving the most seamless blend with stat panel in the crossover band.
I suggest a woofer having a well damped suspention, good transient response, and good top end extension rather than a woofer with a floppy suspension designed for deep bass.
I would choose a mid-bass woofer with a Qts between 0.35 and 0.55 a voice coil inductance < 1.0 mH.
I would also add a sub, or better yet... a pair of RiPol subs 🙂
Charlie
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Hi Charlie,
Thanks for your soothing words. I think then I'll manage to prevent arcing with the current Design, since the Diaphragma will end quite far away from the Pins. As for the calculations I think i did everything correct then.
As i mentioned above I already have two pairs of tymphany sls 8" woofers. The Qts with 0,66 s a bit above the Parameters mentioned by you. Do you think this could be an issue? I actually already Plan the Setup with an additional ripol-sub 🙂
I'm more worried about the max SPL of These quite small woofers, which is why I thought about a dual Setup to gain 3 extra dB (?)
Thanks for your soothing words. I think then I'll manage to prevent arcing with the current Design, since the Diaphragma will end quite far away from the Pins. As for the calculations I think i did everything correct then.
As i mentioned above I already have two pairs of tymphany sls 8" woofers. The Qts with 0,66 s a bit above the Parameters mentioned by you. Do you think this could be an issue? I actually already Plan the Setup with an additional ripol-sub 🙂
I'm more worried about the max SPL of These quite small woofers, which is why I thought about a dual Setup to gain 3 extra dB (?)
I think the dual 8" Peerless woofers will do fine, even with their above-optimal qts.
Also; I would make the LF Cutoff input to the Calculator 110% of the crossover frequency (this will affect the "R" feed resistance calculation), and then use a symmetric 24db/oct to 48db/oct Linkwitz-Riley filter.
Also; I would make the LF Cutoff input to the Calculator 110% of the crossover frequency (this will affect the "R" feed resistance calculation), and then use a symmetric 24db/oct to 48db/oct Linkwitz-Riley filter.
Getting there!
First two stators are setup. Definitely a bit tricky to achieve even tension in all cables but at least they seem to be straight. I also underestimated the overall tension, the panels are pretty bend and I hope I can fix them straight with some sort of edge rail.
Next step: Diaphragma!
I will copy the tensioning-jig by Charlie and use 6 micron Mylar-C. Really hope the 3m tape can handle all the stress 🙂
But since there are still a lot of unknowns I'll proceed with building only one speaker for now.
First two stators are setup. Definitely a bit tricky to achieve even tension in all cables but at least they seem to be straight. I also underestimated the overall tension, the panels are pretty bend and I hope I can fix them straight with some sort of edge rail.
Next step: Diaphragma!
I will copy the tensioning-jig by Charlie and use 6 micron Mylar-C. Really hope the 3m tape can handle all the stress 🙂
But since there are still a lot of unknowns I'll proceed with building only one speaker for now.
I've never seen wire insulation with color gradations like yours-- very cool.
I hate to bring up a concern at this late stage of your build but I had not thought about it earlier:
Ideally; when playing music, the [driving] wires would have infinite mass and remain perfectly immovable, and all drive force would be imparted to move the [driven] diaphragm (only). In reality the wires are not infinitely massive and can't be made perfectly immovable-- so the drive force imparts motion to both the diaphragm and, by reaction, to the wires also.
Any movement imparted to the wires is at-best wasted, and may even be audible like vibrating strings on a guitar.
If you find that your wires are vibrating excessively when playing music, you can mitigate this by inserting additional horizontal wire supports (between the two you already have).
I have no experience with tensioned stranded wire panels but for un-tensioned solid-core wire panels, my [very conservative] guidelines for determining the number of wire supports and the spans between them, versus wire gauge size, is given below.
Max span between wire supports (gauge/inches):
22 gauge: 2 inches
20 gauge: 3 inches
18 gauge: 4 inches
16 gauge: 5 inches
Love those wire colors!
I hate to bring up a concern at this late stage of your build but I had not thought about it earlier:
Ideally; when playing music, the [driving] wires would have infinite mass and remain perfectly immovable, and all drive force would be imparted to move the [driven] diaphragm (only). In reality the wires are not infinitely massive and can't be made perfectly immovable-- so the drive force imparts motion to both the diaphragm and, by reaction, to the wires also.
Any movement imparted to the wires is at-best wasted, and may even be audible like vibrating strings on a guitar.
If you find that your wires are vibrating excessively when playing music, you can mitigate this by inserting additional horizontal wire supports (between the two you already have).
I have no experience with tensioned stranded wire panels but for un-tensioned solid-core wire panels, my [very conservative] guidelines for determining the number of wire supports and the spans between them, versus wire gauge size, is given below.
Max span between wire supports (gauge/inches):
22 gauge: 2 inches
20 gauge: 3 inches
18 gauge: 4 inches
16 gauge: 5 inches
Love those wire colors!
Of course Charlie was right 🙂
I couldn't help but fire it up for the First time today... Not without some issues 😀
If I turn on the bias there is a pretty intimidating sizzling/crackling noise noticeable. (First Video)
When feeding a Signal to the speaker you can literally see the wires move and when going loader you hear crackling noises. It actually gets a lot better If i turn Off the bias and let it "cool Off". I can run the speaker for multiple minutes with good Performance and cracking only in the Base area.
First Intuition was that the voltage seems to be way too high... Apart from Charlie's obviously correct note, that the cables need more Support.
I don't know what I expected but I'm quite surprise I didn't Blow Up anything and that there is actually music coming from this Sheet of plastic with a few wires. Quite magical indeed.
I couldn't help but fire it up for the First time today... Not without some issues 😀
If I turn on the bias there is a pretty intimidating sizzling/crackling noise noticeable. (First Video)
When feeding a Signal to the speaker you can literally see the wires move and when going loader you hear crackling noises. It actually gets a lot better If i turn Off the bias and let it "cool Off". I can run the speaker for multiple minutes with good Performance and cracking only in the Base area.
First Intuition was that the voltage seems to be way too high... Apart from Charlie's obviously correct note, that the cables need more Support.
I don't know what I expected but I'm quite surprise I didn't Blow Up anything and that there is actually music coming from this Sheet of plastic with a few wires. Quite magical indeed.
Definitely a Problem of Missing horizontal Supports... I improvised some spacers and hissing Sound is completely gone. I guess I can somehow add some supports. Crazy Sound distribution btw. can't wait to hear it after adding the Crossover and the subs. But step by step...
