I could not dream of giving $ 300 for a cable, I make them myself, But it's not cheap either when fine silver is needed, etc., good materials cost.
But as I said earlier , this is the market, if you want the best you typically have to pay a disproportionate amount.
I will not in any way defend the astronomical prices there is on some cables.
But typically this discussion always ends there. Plus, there are mental problems in those who hear sound differences.
That's not what the thread is about at all and cables are just the tip of the iceberg.
All components have an audio signature, therefore can Kondo make perhaps the world's most well-sounding amplifier, the construction is common, but the components he uses are unique.
In all modesty, I have made a similar experiment.
Made average hi-fi to high-end, only by optimizing power supplies, ensuring all connections are optimal and replacing components / cables with poor audio signature to some with good audio signature.
For the experiment I had purchased some 30 year old F3 Trapez that I did not touch, I work exclusively with the electronics behind the speakers.
It all played very ordinarily before modification.
The hi-fi level that could be achieved with quite common modified average constructions was astounding.
But I do not understand how, therefore the thread.
Can only say I must! have been able to hear differences on components / cables and been able to make the right choices.
As you see i also work with precision in addition to sound signature, I believe hi-fi consists of both precision and sound signature, optimal hi-hi is achieved by working with both concepts is my experience.
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Not when it comes to audio cables.
The correct term is "perceive" sound differences. Whether they actually hear or not would come after verification.
I'm sure those sound signatures would show up in measurements. Do you have any?
Still don't understand after all those explanations?
Again, the correct term is "perceive" differences. Whether you actually hear or not would come after verification.
Would not have written more, but in response to Evenharmonic's constant demand for evidence, here is possibly both a technical proof and a proof of what I say is true
Plus that blind test is absolutely no guarantee that there are no sound differences ..
On a Danish forum hifi4all I created a poll with the same video I have a link to here in the thread.
Https://youtu.be/8ESRvAqhtvI
I called the thread copper vs silver
HIFI4ALL Forum: Kobber vs sølv
The question was: Is there a sound difference between the first and second half of the video , first half 00-2.45
The response options were as follows:
!. No. 9 answered this
2. Is the first half copper. 3 answered this
3. Is the first half silver 6 answered this
Which by a blind test would not have been a significant proof that there was a sound difference.
However, some could hear a sound difference among myself because otherwise I would never have made this poll.
I actually thought most people would be able to hear a sound difference, so the result of the vote surprised me.
I decided to record the video with Audacity, the result was not as expected, there was more difference between the two halves than I had expected.
Still, I had to state that astonishingly many could not hear the sound difference.
Here is the sound diagram, with zoom and not so much zoom:
It can be stated that there may be a measurable difference between copper and silver in the acoustic plane. But more attempts are needed
But with certainty it can be said that blind testing does not tell the truth, blind test is only misleading.
Plus that blind test is absolutely no guarantee that there are no sound differences ..
On a Danish forum hifi4all I created a poll with the same video I have a link to here in the thread.
Https://youtu.be/8ESRvAqhtvI
I called the thread copper vs silver
HIFI4ALL Forum: Kobber vs sølv
The question was: Is there a sound difference between the first and second half of the video , first half 00-2.45
The response options were as follows:
!. No. 9 answered this
2. Is the first half copper. 3 answered this
3. Is the first half silver 6 answered this
Which by a blind test would not have been a significant proof that there was a sound difference.
However, some could hear a sound difference among myself because otherwise I would never have made this poll.
I actually thought most people would be able to hear a sound difference, so the result of the vote surprised me.
I decided to record the video with Audacity, the result was not as expected, there was more difference between the two halves than I had expected.
Still, I had to state that astonishingly many could not hear the sound difference.
Here is the sound diagram, with zoom and not so much zoom:
It can be stated that there may be a measurable difference between copper and silver in the acoustic plane. But more attempts are needed
But with certainty it can be said that blind testing does not tell the truth, blind test is only misleading.
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$300 is close to entry level these days. I would make no assumptions about the
quality of materials or construction. It is too cheap to expect it using decent termination as well. $300 retail means no more than $50 in materials. Probably even less.
@thor2, now it's getting really silly. A lousy camcorder audio recording where the guy not even managed to stand still behind the camera? That alone will produce a lot of difference in the audio. As will do any tiny difference in air-flow, etc.
The differences you show in the waveform are so large that under no circumstances whatsoever they could ever be the result of different cables alone!
You have to, have to, have to record electrical signals for this. Which is what I did over at ASR. Outcome is that people not only weren't able to tell the two cables apart, they actually didn't even find one of the three recordings was the original!
KSTR Cable Test #02 (analog RCA loopback) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Also I can prove that the remaining linear(!) difference between the two cables is some 120dB down from the signal, and would be totally buried in noise were it not for the special technique I'm using.
Where were you?
The differences you show in the waveform are so large that under no circumstances whatsoever they could ever be the result of different cables alone!
You have to, have to, have to record electrical signals for this. Which is what I did over at ASR. Outcome is that people not only weren't able to tell the two cables apart, they actually didn't even find one of the three recordings was the original!
KSTR Cable Test #02 (analog RCA loopback) | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Also I can prove that the remaining linear(!) difference between the two cables is some 120dB down from the signal, and would be totally buried in noise were it not for the special technique I'm using.
Where were you?
I completely agree, therefore I also write that there must be many more attempts of the same type.
By the way, I have nothing to do with the video, I found it and heard the sound difference I usually hear on copper and silver.
Therefore, I did a poll on hifi4all to check how many heard the same, As I mentioned earlier not many , Despite there being a measurable difference.
But the result shows that blind testing is nothing worth , blind testing is typically only misleading, no serious hi-fi developer uses blind testing, also because it is not about the difference itself, but where the difference leads you.
I agree with you that the reliability of this measurement is a big issue.
I have measured a lot on speakers and know how little it takes to change the test result.
I'm change residence at the moment so I can not make a similar attempt right now.
But I will do it at some point. But others are of course welcome to try if they dare.
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Single blind test like the one you've been through before?
What kind of blind test, single, double, triple or something else?
Thank you for taking time to post your anecdotal experiences but what's missing is the specifics on the blind test you keep talking about.
"It" meaning your own interpretation of what single, double or triple blind test is? Ok, good for you.
I just did a taste test through television. The reports on double blind taste test of Coca-cola vs Pepsi cola turned out to be misleading because my own test shows otherwise.
You are living in a world of delusion, blinded by stories in the boutique audio magazines.
99.99% of design choices in audio are made by specs and measurement, no actual listening involved. Most gear in the pro world (where your beloved recordings come from) is developed without any listening ever involved when it comes to decision-making, unless it's some kind of effects processor, speaker etc. Or the designer is forced to use crap, stuff that is and measures bad actually, and wants to make sure it's still "good enough".
And when actual listening is ever required for design then the serious people of course make blind tests. Especially when it's about saving money (yeah, the "good enough" theme again). Some very skilled designers with huge amounts of experience can and do get away in sighted tests as a short-cut, once it was found that on average their judgements are in line with proper blind testing.
"...can be described most adequately"
I think words can only go so far as to describe someone's auditory experience. Beyond that, it's well into the "sales pitch" territory, which some here find abhorrent.
I have a solution. Record the sound of your system and get that recording accurate enough to distinguish the change in how it sounds, say, between cables. Or capacitors.
I dont think you can do it. Not only the record playback system - whatever that would be - but to have another person be able to say: "yeah, I hear it".
Until then, it's all talk-talk.
I'm going to give it a shot. I just put together a pair of TABAQ with the W5-2143 driver. I wish to convey how this speaker sounds to others here in the forum. I can write paragraphs, or, I can record something familiar to many and let others listen for themselves.
I'm starting with a binaural recording. Open-air headphones are the intended playback device. My very first shot succeeded in getting the "Jan Didden, Siegfried Linkwitz demo reaction", where I was able to trick my wife into believing the speakers were on, when they werent. She has a lot better hearing than me.
Otherwise, the recording played back over headphones sounds nothing like the speakers do in the room. By that I mean the difference is so far beyond the effect of a cable change, I doubt that would carry through whatever is getting obscured by the recording.
Just because it's not perfect on my first try, doesnt mean this idea couldnt be refined by others that know a lot more about what they're doing. I recommend giving it a shot sometime; see how easy it is to make a convincing recording of your own stereo's sound.
One would figure if you crank up the bits, crank up the sample rate, crank up the mic quality - at a certain point, you'd get it. At least good enough to convey to another, who can listen with their own ears and judge for themselves.
I just might post something about this; I see others have with their speakers. I think it's the only way to - given someone wanted to hear what, say, a TABAQ with a certain driver sounds like - convey that information.
I think words can only go so far as to describe someone's auditory experience. Beyond that, it's well into the "sales pitch" territory, which some here find abhorrent.
I have a solution. Record the sound of your system and get that recording accurate enough to distinguish the change in how it sounds, say, between cables. Or capacitors.
I dont think you can do it. Not only the record playback system - whatever that would be - but to have another person be able to say: "yeah, I hear it".
Until then, it's all talk-talk.
I'm going to give it a shot. I just put together a pair of TABAQ with the W5-2143 driver. I wish to convey how this speaker sounds to others here in the forum. I can write paragraphs, or, I can record something familiar to many and let others listen for themselves.
I'm starting with a binaural recording. Open-air headphones are the intended playback device. My very first shot succeeded in getting the "Jan Didden, Siegfried Linkwitz demo reaction", where I was able to trick my wife into believing the speakers were on, when they werent. She has a lot better hearing than me.
Otherwise, the recording played back over headphones sounds nothing like the speakers do in the room. By that I mean the difference is so far beyond the effect of a cable change, I doubt that would carry through whatever is getting obscured by the recording.
Just because it's not perfect on my first try, doesnt mean this idea couldnt be refined by others that know a lot more about what they're doing. I recommend giving it a shot sometime; see how easy it is to make a convincing recording of your own stereo's sound.
One would figure if you crank up the bits, crank up the sample rate, crank up the mic quality - at a certain point, you'd get it. At least good enough to convey to another, who can listen with their own ears and judge for themselves.
I just might post something about this; I see others have with their speakers. I think it's the only way to - given someone wanted to hear what, say, a TABAQ with a certain driver sounds like - convey that information.
I'm aware of what you mention, but the basic sound of the music is not easy to kill.
In the same way that you can hear through a bad phone line that it's Aunt Erna.
You could say I'm trying to make Aunt Erna sound more lifelike, it's hi-fi to me, And I'm not complete idiot and do this blindfolded . And we determine from line signal level and to the ears.
At the end of this post, I think about what we hi-fi enthusiasts and many hi-fi manufacturers are finally doing.
Sound signature
For sure it is that a completely flawless reproduction is not possible today, the zero error theory is a dead idea, And even more dead in my opinion if one believes that measurements and theory tell the whole truth.
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Unfortunately for you, you haven't cited a single proof of measurements and theory not able to tell the whole truth about audio cables. You've only cited subjective anecdotal experiences.
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