I like to see the 2.83v curves as well , best if they show curve traces for every
3db increase in output to 15-20 v max is sufficient for domestic operation.
I entirely agree, in a perfect world they would do that.
But our world would already be substantially improved if all driver and speaker manufacturers would publish ANY distortion curves.
As it is only Beyma, BMS and Accuton do that of the top of my head amongst the driver makers and the german manufacturers of monitors like ME Geithain and Neumann for speaker systems.
But our world would already be substantially improved if all driver and speaker manufacturers would publish ANY distortion curves.
As it is only Beyma, BMS and Accuton do that of the top of my head amongst the driver makers and the german manufacturers of monitors like ME Geithain and Neumann for speaker systems.
dvv, you're using the word "neutral" to describe low distortion, and in fact you are agreeing with me, that when you use a 'neutral' amplifier the sound differences are not as dramatic as when using a lesser amp. The trend is that the cleaner the amp, the less do the speakers have 'personality' - and in fact that personality is a reflection of the system working as a whole, the gestalt. What I do is simply extend that behaviour, and say that when the total system is "completely" neutral then the character of the speaker becomes essentially subservient, disappears from the equation.
As an example of how I go about things, if I were to have that amplifier and 3 speakers with me, this is what I would do: first, you say the Citation is very well-behaved, so I would stress test this with each speaker, and find the combo which is the hardest to drive, probably the AR from what you say. And that means listening for tonal changes with difficult material at different SPLs, up to maximum reasonable volumes. If the amp is found wanting then first job is to sort that out, looking at power supplies, susceptibility to interference, other weaknesses, etc - until the amp can run up to full listening levels, cleanly, with all the speakers. If the differences are still too obvious, then dive inside the speakers and fix up all the usual dumb weaknesses there - I hate pots with a vengeance, so all those adjustment controls on the speakers would be ripped out, replaced with decent quality resistors that correspond to the pot settings.
From experience, this should get things a lot closer - the cheap speaker will have the usual problems, the loss of detail you mentioned is typical, so how this is dealt with is to hammer the unit hard for an hour or so; IME this always brings such components to life.
If there are still clear differences, then monitor what the amp is delivering to the speaker terminals - while the amp is running at full listening volumes use a feed from the speaker terminals to a headphone listening setup, and compare ... is the amplifier delivering precisely identically "sounding" signals to the speakers at these power levels?
And so it goes on ...
You guys are all a funny bunch. 
There is no absolute in this audio equation; anything and everything could be good or bad, speakers, amplifiers, etc.
Everything has to be good equally, in the right balance with our ears and our rooms and the volume level that we like to listen at.
And the music recordings done with the right microphones (quality) and their right positioning in the venues where they were used.
________________
Sound Quality Versus Measurements - Here's a very good video that everyone here (and outside) should tremendously enjoy:
Lies, Damn Lies, and Audio Gear Specs: AES Damn Lies Workshop - YouTube
* And please don't comment if you are not going to watch it in its entirety.
But don't be afraid, or reticent, because you are going to benefit (advancement) from watching it entirely; worth your time.
There is no absolute in this audio equation; anything and everything could be good or bad, speakers, amplifiers, etc.
Everything has to be good equally, in the right balance with our ears and our rooms and the volume level that we like to listen at.
And the music recordings done with the right microphones (quality) and their right positioning in the venues where they were used.
________________
Sound Quality Versus Measurements - Here's a very good video that everyone here (and outside) should tremendously enjoy:
Lies, Damn Lies, and Audio Gear Specs: AES Damn Lies Workshop - YouTube
* And please don't comment if you are not going to watch it in its entirety.
But don't be afraid, or reticent, because you are going to benefit (advancement) from watching it entirely; worth your time.
Frank, trhe Citation is the only amp I have ever had which doesn't give a hoot which speaker it's driving, at least not when that happens in my room, even at uholy SPL levels i could not bear for longer than a few minutes, just to try to catch it somewhere.
Actually, in terms of behavior, my older HK 680 integrated amp is just the same, only it has its attitude at 0.1, 1, 10 and full 85 Watts, but its initial attitude stays the same right up to just before clipping. Delivers 530 Watts into 2 Ohms in peaks. It's a little wild sounding from the start, that's where the Citation has a clear edge, it's neutral and appears to have no attitude of its own. HK 680 is arbitrarily more fun when listening to hard rock, but I still prefer the Citation.
The Karan amp is the most powerful of the lot, delivering nominally 180/250W into 8/4 Ohms, at its nominal specs. Testing that for high power drive is a waste of time, because up to 100W/8 Ohms, as far as I got, it also stays exactly the same as at 1W, there's just more loudness to it.
The granddaddy of them all, the marantz 170DC, also stands tall as far as it goes, but starts to change tonality a little earlier than the H/Ks, about 1 dB below its nominal power output, but still delivers a whopping 70W/8 Ohms before it starts to misbehave. Way louder than my room can stand.
But overall, I feel the Citation is still the best all told, and it's definitely the most composed and neutral of the lot, including the Karan. True, the difference is small, and felt most on the AR speakers, but nevertheless it's there.
So, the Citation remains my nominal value, the one against which all others are compared with. And a damn fine amp.
Actually, in terms of behavior, my older HK 680 integrated amp is just the same, only it has its attitude at 0.1, 1, 10 and full 85 Watts, but its initial attitude stays the same right up to just before clipping. Delivers 530 Watts into 2 Ohms in peaks. It's a little wild sounding from the start, that's where the Citation has a clear edge, it's neutral and appears to have no attitude of its own. HK 680 is arbitrarily more fun when listening to hard rock, but I still prefer the Citation.
The Karan amp is the most powerful of the lot, delivering nominally 180/250W into 8/4 Ohms, at its nominal specs. Testing that for high power drive is a waste of time, because up to 100W/8 Ohms, as far as I got, it also stays exactly the same as at 1W, there's just more loudness to it.
The granddaddy of them all, the marantz 170DC, also stands tall as far as it goes, but starts to change tonality a little earlier than the H/Ks, about 1 dB below its nominal power output, but still delivers a whopping 70W/8 Ohms before it starts to misbehave. Way louder than my room can stand.
But overall, I feel the Citation is still the best all told, and it's definitely the most composed and neutral of the lot, including the Karan. True, the difference is small, and felt most on the AR speakers, but nevertheless it's there.
So, the Citation remains my nominal value, the one against which all others are compared with. And a damn fine amp.
dvv has already given the answer, 70W/8R working correctly is 100% room filling sound - and a chip amp working correctly delivers those power levels ... QED ...
dvv, you spoken fondly of the Karan often ... so in what specific area do you feel it comes off 2nd best? You mention the AR speakers testing it - this implies that current delivery exposes a slight weakness ...
Edit: even the Karan's spec's 'give it away' - the power rating drops very significantly with double the load ...
dvv, you spoken fondly of the Karan often ... so in what specific area do you feel it comes off 2nd best? You mention the AR speakers testing it - this implies that current delivery exposes a slight weakness ...
Edit: even the Karan's spec's 'give it away' - the power rating drops very significantly with double the load ...
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I've never managed to stress my amps at all but then again the woofer amp produces just over 1kW into 2Ohm (continuous music signal with a crest factor of 2.8 or 9dB at no more than 0.03%THD or 1350W using a signal with a crest factor of 7.8).
At 50W things start to fall off my shelves so I don't really want to try either.
At 50W things start to fall off my shelves so I don't really want to try either.
Stressing the amp is not about about producing excessive bass, that's a whole different area of focus, for me at least. What I concern myself with is the quality of treble sound at high power delivery, this is usually the giveaway. There's a very nice round of recordings from the library, of the Australian Naval brass band in full cry, doing classics and other material. Very natural dynamics, the sound drops away at times and you wonder if something is wrong; next second the speakers explode with all the brass at full power, this is the type of thing to use for checking capability ...
What speakers are we talking about frankie , are they driven by a chip amp..?
I'm not producing excessive bass, I just used my bass amp as an example since my speakers are 4way active.
Since I moved house and had to place the speakers in the corners I dialled down the bass amp by about 8dB to get a flat response (+-2dB 20-20 000Hz) at my listening position.
The treble as well as everything else remains smooth, articulated and clean all the way into completely stupid levels. You only realise how loud it can get when you have to scream and shout to communicate.
Since I moved house and had to place the speakers in the corners I dialled down the bass amp by about 8dB to get a flat response (+-2dB 20-20 000Hz) at my listening position.
The treble as well as everything else remains smooth, articulated and clean all the way into completely stupid levels. You only realise how loud it can get when you have to scream and shout to communicate.
What a waste , i should test it for yah .....
I got the amps cheap off ebay before people knew how good they are.
I am fairly patient and never pay more than 30% of retail for s/h gear and could sell them for twice what I paid tomorrow.
At least this way I have more headroom then I'll ever need. ;-)
Yep, in that particular instance it was the Philips HT setup, with its plastic speakers, but which comes with a fairly decent subwoofer. It's able to do that intense brass 'blatt' well, up to the point of clipping - modern, highly compressed pop recordings are more a test for this unit; requiring sustained power delivery taxes power supplies severely, the Aldi TV and the PC monitors shows their limits fairly quickly here.
Sounds good to me ...
Full blown active setups are certainly an excellent pathway, demonstrating what sound in the home should be capable of ... the problem is that the usual configuration of single amp, and passive speakers with fancy crossover, cripples the potential in so many situations, largely because the amplifier is nowhere near engineered well enough to deliver the type of clean power required ...
Buy Rectifier & Schottky Diodes FFP15S60STU, Fast Recovery Rectifier Diode, Switching 15A 600V 35ns, 2-Pin, TO-220 Fairchild Semiconductor FFP15S60STU online from RS for next day delivery.
Any experience of diodes like this ? Fast recovery Schottky I have not liked . If these genuinely recover without the burst of energy that seems ideal . The problem with a capacitor and IN series is a sharp peak at RF becomes a series of ripples at lower frequencies when suppressed . OK Grandma's AM radio can be right next to the amplifier when 10 nF fitted . Sound suffers . I guess tube rectifiers have that in their favour , I suspect they recover with grace ? I would hate to think soft recovery is just internal capacitance . Even so it might be more ideal .
Any experience of diodes like this ? Fast recovery Schottky I have not liked . If these genuinely recover without the burst of energy that seems ideal . The problem with a capacitor and IN series is a sharp peak at RF becomes a series of ripples at lower frequencies when suppressed . OK Grandma's AM radio can be right next to the amplifier when 10 nF fitted . Sound suffers . I guess tube rectifiers have that in their favour , I suspect they recover with grace ? I would hate to think soft recovery is just internal capacitance . Even so it might be more ideal .
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