In Holland, the French are well known for being the only europeans who don't speak any languages other than.. French (the Germans come in second).
Idefixes' post is exactly the kind of post that made me decide to go for Zenquito. I'm not sure what he is trying to say but he seems to agree that power supply matters.
I don't think that my bad sounding Zenquito is caused by inadequate PSU. Both transformers are 300 VA, and I first used 20.000 uF per rail (3 x 6800 uF, BC 056 series). Later I added 10.000 uF per rail (same caps, see pictures in first posts). This did not improve sound at all. I would really like to listen to Idefixes amp and find out if there is indeed a difference and if so, what causes it.
Have to go now. Hope we can beat those darn Czechs tomorrow
Idefixes' post is exactly the kind of post that made me decide to go for Zenquito. I'm not sure what he is trying to say but he seems to agree that power supply matters.
I don't think that my bad sounding Zenquito is caused by inadequate PSU. Both transformers are 300 VA, and I first used 20.000 uF per rail (3 x 6800 uF, BC 056 series). Later I added 10.000 uF per rail (same caps, see pictures in first posts). This did not improve sound at all. I would really like to listen to Idefixes amp and find out if there is indeed a difference and if so, what causes it.
Have to go now. Hope we can beat those darn Czechs tomorrow
Suitable arrangement
I don't know why is here on every pages recomended to give rectifier and filtration caps anywhere far from power amp
. High quality condenser is for nothing, if is followed by long wires, which kill his advantages. In my amps, which all have SNR over 120 dB, are rectifier and caps on the same PCB as power amp with minimaly distance maked only by wide of fuse. Minimal distance is more neccessary then any exotic cap, 'cos inductance depend on distance .
I don't know why is here on every pages recomended to give rectifier and filtration caps anywhere far from power amp
. High quality condenser is for nothing, if is followed by long wires, which kill his advantages. In my amps, which all have SNR over 120 dB, are rectifier and caps on the same PCB as power amp with minimaly distance maked only by wide of fuse. Minimal distance is more neccessary then any exotic cap, 'cos inductance depend on distance .
ABO said:In Holland, the French are well known for being the only europeans who don't speak any languages other than.. French (the Germans come in second).
Idefixes' post is exactly the kind of post that made me decide to go for Zenquito. I'm not sure what he is trying to say but he seems to agree that power supply matters.
I don't think that my bad sounding Zenquito is caused by inadequate PSU. Both transformers are 300 VA, and I first used 20.000 uF per rail (3 x 6800 uF, BC 056 series). Later I added 10.000 uF per rail (same caps, see pictures in first posts). This did not improve sound at all. I would really like to listen to Idefixes amp and find out if there is indeed a difference and if so, what causes it.
Have to go now. Hope we can beat those darn Czechs tomorrow
First things, yours words about french and english language is displaced and und unplaisant. I know that my english is not as good must be, but its not a reason to say those things. I could made some remarks about Holland people in Holliday in france but i think it has nothing to do here. That OK?
What i try here with my bad french english is to explain why IHMO my zenquito sound's good, better than a N. Pass Zen4 or a Krell KAV300i or a Rotel RMB1090 THX. That's one thing. If open the eyes and observe the pictures i posted you will see that I have 12 Caps FRS BC C154 22000µF/40V. Two are direct after rectifier. After theses i have Pi resistor filtering (0R22/25W and 50W). And at last I have 2 same caps for each amp card. These are close has it be possible from te amp card.
IMHO the filtering i have the lower frontier. Why do you think there a big amount of filter caps in Aleph. Only for thr look. I don't think so. For my next Aleph X i have 6x68000µF per chanel. It 's impossible to have strong bass and power with only a little amount of caps. The importance of PSU in the amp sound his a fact that has been even and even verified......
So i think i will stop to post here, i believe that i have nothing to bring you taht you want to listen.
Marc
Marc,
I'm sorry that you misinderstood my post. I am not making fun of your bad english at all. It just seems strange that some people post in French in this place.
I made a joke about that. That does not mean that I'm not interested in what you guys have to say. In fact, you probably know this amp better than anyone elso on the forum. And I try my best to believe you when you say your amp sounds very good but:
- What does that mean? Remember, I don't know you and perhaps you are comparing Zenquito against your old, say, Yoko amplifier.
- The original Zenquito as I build it does not sound good at all. Not to my ears. However, with some simple modifications I can bring the amp to a very high level, without changing filter caps. Doesn't that indicate a design flaw?
- My experiments indicate that the quality and capacitance of filter caps is not the problem. In my last post I meant it when I said that'd like to compare our amps. That should give some valuable insights.
I hope you will so good to answer a concrete question:
Is it your opinion that my bad sound is caused by my inadaquate power supply?
I'm sorry that you misinderstood my post. I am not making fun of your bad english at all. It just seems strange that some people post in French in this place.
I made a joke about that. That does not mean that I'm not interested in what you guys have to say. In fact, you probably know this amp better than anyone elso on the forum. And I try my best to believe you when you say your amp sounds very good but:
- What does that mean? Remember, I don't know you and perhaps you are comparing Zenquito against your old, say, Yoko amplifier.
- The original Zenquito as I build it does not sound good at all. Not to my ears. However, with some simple modifications I can bring the amp to a very high level, without changing filter caps. Doesn't that indicate a design flaw?
- My experiments indicate that the quality and capacitance of filter caps is not the problem. In my last post I meant it when I said that'd like to compare our amps. That should give some valuable insights.
I hope you will so good to answer a concrete question:
Is it your opinion that my bad sound is caused by my inadaquate power supply?
ABO said:
De: Nicolas AYRAULT (nayrault) </dir-app/bbcard/profile.asp?webtag=haute_fidelite&uid=1065792> 19-juin 13:29
À: TOUS 1 de 2
15349.1 </haute_fidelite/messages?msg=15349.1>
bonjour tout le monde, j'ai donc "cramé" mes enceintes (du moins deux HP si j'en juge à l'odeur). sur mon zen évo j'avais décidé de mettre des kits vellemann 4700, qui en était dépourvu à la base. mais je n'ai pas eu le temps de les installer... (je les ais reçus depuis, un peu tard). le zen evo a très bien marché pdt un petit bout de temps (je crois être le premier à l'avoir réalisé d'ailleurs ?! ça remonte donc...) je me suis retrouvé avec une masse à un potentiel de -42V et ce sur les deux canaux ?!!!! je me suis demandé comment l'ampli pouvait tenir avec une telle valeur et je crois avoir trouvé: j'ai séparé une partie de l'alim avec transfo + redressement + 2*10000 microF, le tout relié à l'autre partie par une prise XLR. le condo qui fournit le -42V a une impédance qui joue au yo-yo (quelques centaines d'ohm) tandis que l'autre (le +42V) tend vers l'infini. je me suis dit que ce devait être ce qui limitait le courant et évitait ainsi le court-circuit. alors est-ce possible ou cela vient-il d'un autre élément de la partie alim ? pont de redressement?... dernière question: je possède un densen beat B-100, y-a-t'il un risque que je teste un à un mes HP avec (je possède des linn Kaber dont les filtre paraissent intactes et qui dipose d'un bornier par HP)
In English translated with dead ego the node to give pleasure...
Hello,
... A condo with the entry it is audiophilement incorrect but that protects from the D.C. current... In more that decreases the boarding time...!
of the charts Soft Start they are pretty but that is not used for nothing... especially for transformers cacahuette cherry 300VA... (Hello PPS Audio) The I of call does not disturb the transformers
... the condos of them also. I do not even have any with my 2 X 500VA and my 8 X 47000µF... on the other hand K4700 that save the HP...!
Un peu d'humour à la française ...
La fête au village bat son plein.
Voilà le moment du concours de tir a l’arc.
Premier candidat prend un enfant dans la foule et lui pose une pomme sur la tête.
Il tire sa flèche qui va droit dans la pomme.
Tout le monde applaudit, et l’homme dit ‘ Y’m Guillaume TELL’
Deuxième candidat prend une prune et la place sur la tête de l’enfant, qui a de plus en plus peur.
Il tire sa flèche qui va droit dans la prune.
Tout le monde applaudit, et l’homme dit ‘ Y’m Robin Wood’
Troisième candidat ( un belge ) prend une cerise et la place sur la tête de l’enfant, qui est
mort de peur.
Il tire sa flèche qui va droit dans la tête de l’enfant.
Et le candidat qui dit‘ Y’m sorry’
A little humour to the Frenchwoman...
The festival at the village beats its full. Here is the moment of the contest of shooting has the arc. First candidate takes a child in crowd and an apple poses to him on the head. It draws its arrow which goes right in apple. Everyone applauds, and the man says ' Y' m Guillaume TELL' Second candidate takes a plum and the place on the head of the child, who is afraid more and more. He draws his arrow which goes right in plum. Everyone applauds, and the man says ' Y' m Robin Wood' Third candidate (a Belgian) takes a cherry and the place on the head of the child, who died of fear. He draws his arrow which goes right in the head of the child. And the candidate says ' Y' m sorry'
Idefixes, come in please
I've tried to decipher JFG's post. It seems he makes a typical French joke and he makes some remarks concerning input caps and soft start circuits. I have the feeling that the joke has some relevance to the subject at hand, but I don't really get it.
Inputs caps:
Although there are input caps in the photographs, I don't actually use them because I found that they degrade sound too much
Softstart circuits: I think JFG claims that they are not needed, but my fuses keep blowing when I don't use this circuit. I don't think that it degrades sound. After all it's just a relay contact in series with the primary winding of the transformer.
JFG also seems to mention an example of some guy who had problems with his amp (supply power on chassis?). I don't understand enough of his post to see the relevance. If anyone could explain this I'd be a happy guy.
ABo
I've tried to decipher JFG's post. It seems he makes a typical French joke and he makes some remarks concerning input caps and soft start circuits. I have the feeling that the joke has some relevance to the subject at hand, but I don't really get it.
Inputs caps:
Although there are input caps in the photographs, I don't actually use them because I found that they degrade sound too much
Softstart circuits: I think JFG claims that they are not needed, but my fuses keep blowing when I don't use this circuit. I don't think that it degrades sound. After all it's just a relay contact in series with the primary winding of the transformer.
JFG also seems to mention an example of some guy who had problems with his amp (supply power on chassis?). I don't understand enough of his post to see the relevance. If anyone could explain this I'd be a happy guy.
ABo
ABO said:
Hello
,Oh excuse me for the jokes.
... Soft Start :
It is normal that the fuses melt... one needs fuses of the special types style SLO/BLO (US), of type with slow fusion for driving starting or transformer which support to 10 x the I of call. For my amplifier, I have a fuse of 6A/55A for the two transformers of 500VA.
There exists almost as many types of fuses than there are types of resistances, there is necessary to put the good at the good place.
... with the primary winding of the transformer :
For the primary windings of the transformers, one can connect them in opposition of phase, which cancels their leakage current partly.
It is not desirable to connect the ground to the mass, because it is very often polluted.
It is necessary to find the good direction of each catch sector of each element of the system closely connected to decrease the leakage current as well as possible.
... Relevance :
Nicolas with have a problem with its amplifier and with roasted the HP of its enclosures.
I believe that it is wise to recall that these amplifiers amplify the D.C. current and all the danger that that represents for the HP of the enclosures.
I make a point of recalling that any presence of D.C. current with entered of the amplifier will result in the destruction of the HP. Also in the case or one of positive or negative food would miss, however the tension will remain limited to 3 or 4 Volts thanks to the presence of the R 10 K ohms of load in the branch drivers (VAS). Also I can only once again repeat the need for a chart of protection.
http://www.qkits.com/serv/qkits/velleman/pages/K4700.asp
http://www.gibsonteched.com/vk4700.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/GdMos005.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/GdMos006.jpg
... Sound of Zenquito :
I seek in vain? ... your realization is almost perfect and I do not find the cause of your problem and why you do not find good the sound of your amplifier... I listened to many Mosquito amplifiers and Zenquito, Zenquito Evo., Crescendo, AXL, Balaise, Crescendo Millennium, and if there are well some differences in sound due to the achievements of each one, I always found the sound very good. Moreover the negative feedback of these amplifier Mosquito/Zenquito is while running, with the result that the adaptation to the types of HP is still better, but that is a very personal opinion. The only thing that I see... is the fact that you board used of other components that those which we usually used, the type of resistances and the type of the condensers... R? Audin Cape, Nichicon ...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=413988
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?
s=&postid=413989
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/Dsc02013.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/GdMos03.jpg
R Philips 1%, R Philips Pro 2, C type Wima MKT, C Philips FRS type C135 ou C136, C type MKC ERO Roederstein (Vishay) ou M+S MKT Matsushita Siemens
... Suggestion :
For your food I suggest you however filtering in pi, of type C R C.
What limits considerably the noise of the food by reducing the residual undulation.
@ + Jean François
Re: Bonne nuit...
Hello,
Mais non il n'est pas en panne ...!
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jm.plantefeve/
Amplification audiophile is one of the last bastions of C It Yourself in electronics. The musical reproduction remains the goal there first, the usual technical criteria are only intermediate objectives. While being released from the industrial and commercial constraints, it is possible to realize starting from adequate components, of the purified apparatuses of great quality of listening. This site is a synthetic guide resulting from research, experiments and meetings. It is intended for the fond of delicacies audiophiles of achievements clean or simply eager to better include/understand the audio electronics of power. One finds there in more of this reception, seven targeted pages, equipped with bibliographical references and relevant bonds.
Diagram of Zenquito Evo :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jm.plantefeve/sche.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jm.plantefeve/zenevo.xls
Zenquito (evolution): 40W class A or AB, around 92 dB/1w/1m the evolution is total symmetry thanks to a differential with negative feedback of current, the use of fets allows a car-polarization (1mA). Work in opposition of phase of the second stage facilitates the order of the mosfets with capacitive entry. The maximum supply voltage is of +-50V. In class A (I rest = 1,5A), the 68R pass to 150R, values to be refined according to Vgs measured on the batch of Mosfets sorted. The push-pull one is to be doubled. This power can be adjusted while exploiting the tension of the rails of food: (Hit.: 2SK1058 and 2SJ162 - Mag.: BUZ900DP and BUZ905DP)
Suggestion :
One can replace the Kératherm insulators by of Silpad 400 or 800
@ + JF
carlosfm said:La question c'est simple: votre ampli est en panne.
Hello,
Mais non il n'est pas en panne ...!
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jm.plantefeve/
Amplification audiophile is one of the last bastions of C It Yourself in electronics. The musical reproduction remains the goal there first, the usual technical criteria are only intermediate objectives. While being released from the industrial and commercial constraints, it is possible to realize starting from adequate components, of the purified apparatuses of great quality of listening. This site is a synthetic guide resulting from research, experiments and meetings. It is intended for the fond of delicacies audiophiles of achievements clean or simply eager to better include/understand the audio electronics of power. One finds there in more of this reception, seven targeted pages, equipped with bibliographical references and relevant bonds.
Diagram of Zenquito Evo :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jm.plantefeve/sche.html
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/jm.plantefeve/zenevo.xls
Zenquito (evolution): 40W class A or AB, around 92 dB/1w/1m the evolution is total symmetry thanks to a differential with negative feedback of current, the use of fets allows a car-polarization (1mA). Work in opposition of phase of the second stage facilitates the order of the mosfets with capacitive entry. The maximum supply voltage is of +-50V. In class A (I rest = 1,5A), the 68R pass to 150R, values to be refined according to Vgs measured on the batch of Mosfets sorted. The push-pull one is to be doubled. This power can be adjusted while exploiting the tension of the rails of food: (Hit.: 2SK1058 and 2SJ162 - Mag.: BUZ900DP and BUZ905DP)
Suggestion :
One can replace the Kératherm insulators by of Silpad 400 or 800
@ + JF
ABO said:
http://www.diyaudio.com./forums/showthread.php?threadid=14979&pagenumber=1
http://www.diyaudio.com./forums/attachment.php?postid=173699&
With the need enclosures... a Mister made here changes sing his Matrix BW800 with Aleph X here... another Mister on our premises makes sing to them his with two Bi amplification Mosquito... and it is pure happiness...!
@ + JF
Jean François,
Thanks for your reaction. I must say I understand your English far better than your French
I see you have a grandmos amp? It seems like a somewhat modded Zenquito. How does it sound in comparison?
The components I use on my Zenquito are not really strange: Input and feedback resistors are Rikenohm, all other resistors are Dale, the Nichicon cap is the lowest ESR, high current cap I could find (at Mouser) and the Audyn caps are cheap MKP's (called polyprop in the US).
I'm looking for some output DC protection. Did you ever test if the Velleman kit degrades sound in any way?
I don't think we will ever find out what the problem is here unless we could do a face to face comparison of our amps, which is very unlikely. Perhaps it is different expectations, perhaps it is some problem I have with my amp or perhaps it is something else, who knows.
I do know that there is no real problem with my amps now. Otherwise it couldn't sound as good as a Vecteur amp. Only thing that would really need improving is bass slam. I don't think that more capacitance will improve this, there must be other factors at work here.
Maybe low OLG-amps have less punch in general? Or is it in the MOSFET output devices? Hmm, I think the Vecteurs are MOSFETS amps too...
Thanks for your reaction. I must say I understand your English far better than your French
I see you have a grandmos amp? It seems like a somewhat modded Zenquito. How does it sound in comparison?
The components I use on my Zenquito are not really strange: Input and feedback resistors are Rikenohm, all other resistors are Dale, the Nichicon cap is the lowest ESR, high current cap I could find (at Mouser) and the Audyn caps are cheap MKP's (called polyprop in the US).
I'm looking for some output DC protection. Did you ever test if the Velleman kit degrades sound in any way?
I don't think we will ever find out what the problem is here unless we could do a face to face comparison of our amps, which is very unlikely. Perhaps it is different expectations, perhaps it is some problem I have with my amp or perhaps it is something else, who knows.
I do know that there is no real problem with my amps now. Otherwise it couldn't sound as good as a Vecteur amp. Only thing that would really need improving is bass slam. I don't think that more capacitance will improve this, there must be other factors at work here.
Maybe low OLG-amps have less punch in general? Or is it in the MOSFET output devices? Hmm, I think the Vecteurs are MOSFETS amps too...
ABO said:Jean François,
Thanks for your reaction. I must say I understand your English far better than your French
I see you have a grandmos amp? It seems like a somewhat modded Zenquito. How does it sound in comparison?
The components I use on my Zenquito are not really strange: Input and feedback resistors are Rikenohm, all other resistors are Dale, the Nichicon cap is the lowest ESR, high current cap I could find (at Mouser) and the Audyn caps are cheap MKP's (called polyprop in the US).
I'm looking for some output DC protection. Did you ever test if the Velleman kit degrades sound in any way?
I don't think we will ever find out what the problem is here unless we could do a face to face comparison of our amps, which is very unlikely. Perhaps it is different expectations, perhaps it is some problem I have with my amp or perhaps it is something else, who knows.
I do know that there is no real problem with my amps now. Otherwise it couldn't sound as good as a Vecteur amp. Only thing that would really need improving is bass slam. I don't think that more capacitance will improve this, there must be other factors at work here.
Maybe low OLG-amps have less punch in general? Or is it in the MOSFET output devices? Hmm, I think the Vecteurs are MOSFETS amps too...
Hello,
Grand-Mos is Mosquito and uses the same diagram. However certain components and values are different, which changes the sound slightly it.
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/GdMos18.jpg
... however these two amplifiers are single and they received each one the improvements of the one and other.... Although the components of these two amplifiers are different their sound is extremely close. Art and the manner of making are rather important, with my taste. The notable difference between the two amplifiers is the use of the transistors drivers 2SK216/2SJ79 (+ 10pF Mica) on the Kit of Grand-Mos Sélectronic, replaced here by the traditional pair Bipolaire 2N3440/2N5416 giving more satisfaction in the its medium.
Grand-Mos >>>> alim + - 51V 100W / 8 ohms 4W Classe A, I repos 0,5A
Mosquito >>>> alim + - 42V 80W / 8 ohms 25W Classe A, I repos 1,25A
>>> Did you ever test if the Velleman kit degrades sound in any way?
What could bring well like difference in sound, the addition of a vulgar contact...? It is irrational to think that... which is concerned with differences in sound due to the matter of the components?... tails of components? ... of the matter of the welding (of the copper or silver contribution)? ... of the support printed circuit, bakelite, epoxy, glass teflon? etc. etc...
I would like to reconsider a point, having followed what he said in connection with the value of the current in the drivers (Vas)... can somebody it develop ? , I do not see a problem, I very did not include/understand... I sought the topic Crescendo (Elektor December 1982) or they developed: "At 180 Watts/10kHz under 4 ohms, the maximum value of the AC current of the stage of order (driver) is only of 0,6mA. When it is known that one has 14 mA... etc... etc... "
@ + JF
PS : ... E.T.
england home 
JFG67 said:
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/Dsc02015.jpg
ouaff... it is not completely true, it had of it a second of Mosquito like that, an initial version of 115 W with two R-Core transformer of 500VA and same the condensers of 47000µF. It was used of prototype and for receipt three types different of condensers from food, 8 in 2x4 in filtering// and pi more different mixing... from SLCE CO39 of 22000µF, Philips TFRS C114 of 22000µF, and thus from the 47000µF standard? Mitsubishi for Hitachi... I do not know what there is inside... but they is those that one preserved... As I never saw nor intended ouï to say tests of this type these tests remained in sleep (except good on all that at summer written in the bible... re-examined ex Audiophile)
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/Dsc02021.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/Dsc02025.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pol.bct/JFG/Dsc02026.jpg
http://www.jls-info.com/julien/audio/photosJF/JF 01.jpg
http://perso.club-internet.fr/ndaviden/revues-2.htm
If the reviews étées transcribed on CD, it will however be necessary to put to you to the French... I function with the translator... and they is not cool...!
@ + JF
Upupa Epops said:To JFG67 : When I had used stone front panels in my amps ( Labrador, Star Galaxy, Nero Brasil etc. ), some of people was smiling and says, that's is look like tomb
Hello,
I do not include/understand too the smell of the question? must one discuss vibratory problems or beauty of front face?
I do not know so at the same time you refer to my faces front and back... but it is not stone or a hard material but of the synthetic resin (Corian??? Scheme of work of kitchen). This material is worked very well and very easily and it is completely inert. The assembly thus made of the various elements makes that the amplifier is inert (with my taste), front and back faces out of resin, radiators and plate of aluminium (3 mm) support of the condensers, plus against face support of the transformers, a sandwich of 3 mm aluminum, 1,5 mm iron and 2 mm of bitumen.
@ + JF