Has anyone compared these two types of amps? Is there a thread? I could not easily find one. Looking for about 6-10 watts to drive an 8 ohm / single driver speaker.
Thanks,
Chuck
Thanks,
Chuck
GC vs Sonic Impact
I've compared a friends battery powered Sonic Impact to a number of different amps on his full range Fertins (open baffled) and my full range Altec 755Cs (closed box). The comparison amps included my LM3875 amp (hi cap snubberized), his battery powered LM1875 amp, and several commercial amps both tube and class D.
In two separate listening sessions, the SI was far and away the worst of the bunch. I know that these have gotten great press but based on this limited experience, I can't say I understand why people like these.
---Gary
I've compared a friends battery powered Sonic Impact to a number of different amps on his full range Fertins (open baffled) and my full range Altec 755Cs (closed box). The comparison amps included my LM3875 amp (hi cap snubberized), his battery powered LM1875 amp, and several commercial amps both tube and class D.
In two separate listening sessions, the SI was far and away the worst of the bunch. I know that these have gotten great press but based on this limited experience, I can't say I understand why people like these.
---Gary
SI
I spent a couple months trying to wring out the SI. They do some things really well, especially after a lot of board work. Like most amps, the power supply is where you start.
But overall, there is a colorization, and light tonal balance. Most serious amps are better.
They would work well as the top end of a biamp setup. The only issue there is the bridged output. They cannot deal with a driver that is grounded, which is what some active crossovers present.
I think a well built gainclone will be better.
George
I spent a couple months trying to wring out the SI. They do some things really well, especially after a lot of board work. Like most amps, the power supply is where you start.
But overall, there is a colorization, and light tonal balance. Most serious amps are better.
They would work well as the top end of a biamp setup. The only issue there is the bridged output. They cannot deal with a driver that is grounded, which is what some active crossovers present.
I think a well built gainclone will be better.
George
Just to make this an argument, I have built both a gainclone (actually several) and an Amp1-B from 41Hz.com which is actually a Tripath evaluation board which is a big brother to the SI. I used the same power supply for both (based on CarlosFM's snubberized design).
To my ear, I think the tripath amp is far superior. The GC sounds like a decent solid state amp, but the Tripath has an added level of liquidity and fullness to the sound, especially in the mid bass region. I find the GC to be too dry sounding and overall too hard. The one complaint I can offer about the tripath is that in the treble it can get tizzy and on complex music it can get a little harsh, but overall it is still considerably more enjoyable to listen to. For the single driver sound I would try a Amp3 from 41Hz.
To my ear, I think the tripath amp is far superior. The GC sounds like a decent solid state amp, but the Tripath has an added level of liquidity and fullness to the sound, especially in the mid bass region. I find the GC to be too dry sounding and overall too hard. The one complaint I can offer about the tripath is that in the treble it can get tizzy and on complex music it can get a little harsh, but overall it is still considerably more enjoyable to listen to. For the single driver sound I would try a Amp3 from 41Hz.
Right now I have some T-B 871-s speakers and when I have time, will finish my 1320-SB. I was pretty sold on the "T" amp but then heard that gainclones were better so I appreciate the comments here, thanks.
my 2 cents
i've built lm3875 gainclones running off 12v sla batteries.
47uF capacitors used on the rails. this drives my 6ohm 93db speakers to high volumes.
the gainclones had tight and fast bass, the highs were a little too harsh to my liking, but still bearable. it exhibited zero noise even with volume maxed out.
the t-amp that i got was a ta2020 kit. running it on one 12v sla using the stock components, bass was weak and bloomy, switching noise was very apparent when volume goes higher, but vocals were sweet.
replaced the two psu caps with 180uF oscons increased the bass dramatically. output caps was changed to bg hi-q nx 0.47uF ones.
i added 0.01uF output caps between speaker terminals as suggested by ta2020 datasheet as this was missing from the pcb. i think this was the mod that eliminated the switching noise. gain was increased from 21.6dB to 27.4dB. i needed more gain as i am running a ta1545 non-OS dac.
i have yet to solder in the bg n 4.7 caps that i want to replace the input caps with, but this t-amp is already sounding very good.
nice bass, sweet vocals. fast enough to cope with rammstein and linkin park. soundstaging is great especially when i play my bluenote trip saturday night LPs.
both gainclone and t-amp are reasonably cheap to build.
maybe you can build both running off 12v sla to do a comparison? the gainclone would need 2 x 12v sla though.
cheers
garbage
i've built lm3875 gainclones running off 12v sla batteries.
47uF capacitors used on the rails. this drives my 6ohm 93db speakers to high volumes.
the gainclones had tight and fast bass, the highs were a little too harsh to my liking, but still bearable. it exhibited zero noise even with volume maxed out.
the t-amp that i got was a ta2020 kit. running it on one 12v sla using the stock components, bass was weak and bloomy, switching noise was very apparent when volume goes higher, but vocals were sweet.
replaced the two psu caps with 180uF oscons increased the bass dramatically. output caps was changed to bg hi-q nx 0.47uF ones.
i added 0.01uF output caps between speaker terminals as suggested by ta2020 datasheet as this was missing from the pcb. i think this was the mod that eliminated the switching noise. gain was increased from 21.6dB to 27.4dB. i needed more gain as i am running a ta1545 non-OS dac.
i have yet to solder in the bg n 4.7 caps that i want to replace the input caps with, but this t-amp is already sounding very good.
nice bass, sweet vocals. fast enough to cope with rammstein and linkin park. soundstaging is great especially when i play my bluenote trip saturday night LPs.
both gainclone and t-amp are reasonably cheap to build.
maybe you can build both running off 12v sla to do a comparison? the gainclone would need 2 x 12v sla though.
cheers
garbage
I went the www.tripath.com to get specs on 2020 vs the SI 2024. They have no record of the 2020 chip:
http://www.tripath.com/audio.htm
http://www.tripath.com/audio.htm
chuck55 said:
the ta2020 is discontinued.
google reveals the evaluation board design and also the datasheet. 😉
Personally prefer the 2022 over a gianclone, by quite a lot. dont know about a sonic Tamp tho, I would imagine its severe lack of power would be an issue in comparing the too, I too think the amp1 would be a better comparo..
I may end up trying both but think I will start with the LM3875 (after I finish my speakers). Based on Stereophile's measurements, the Bel Cano "T" amp has a lot of ringing, overshoot on the squarewave, and HF crap over 20kHz which requires filtering.
http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/442/index5.html
The gaincone does a nicer square wave and rolls off above 20kHz:
http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/120147/index4.html
Too bad the gainclone is harder to build. I wish the sites that offer kits could offer more info for complete novices who need to know 1) what else is needed (torriod, RCA's, power supply) and 2) where to get parts without annoying them with a bunch of e-mails.
http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/442/index5.html
The gaincone does a nicer square wave and rolls off above 20kHz:
http://www.stereophile.com/amplificationreviews/120147/index4.html
Too bad the gainclone is harder to build. I wish the sites that offer kits could offer more info for complete novices who need to know 1) what else is needed (torriod, RCA's, power supply) and 2) where to get parts without annoying them with a bunch of e-mails.
chuck55 said:
the gainclone is not that difficult to build.
if you start with 12v sla batteries, it's even easier to setup.
here's a pair of lm3875 chips on a heatsink:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Decibel Dungeon is a good place to start for beginners. and you can get kits from Brian.
cheers
garbage
Check out this weeks tnt's review on various t-amps, he also adds some comments on the gainclone.
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/tripath_amps_e.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/tripath_amps_e.html
Garbage, thanks for the links - very helpful. I like the battery idea. How did you wire up yours? This would be easy to implement with the 12v "T" amps but gainclones are 24v dual mono. So I would need 4 12v batteries? Then how I hook up a charger for all 4?
I was considering P/N 7448K81 battery and 7448K67 dual-rate charger from
www.mcmaster.com
I don't think I'll be doing any business with Brian. Sent him 3 e-mails asking which of his chip amps he'd recommend for my speakers. Since he ignored all 3, guess he can do without my business.
I was considering P/N 7448K81 battery and 7448K67 dual-rate charger from
www.mcmaster.com
I don't think I'll be doing any business with Brian. Sent him 3 e-mails asking which of his chip amps he'd recommend for my speakers. Since he ignored all 3, guess he can do without my business.
hi chuck55
initially i used 4 x 12v sla batteries. i had 2 in series to give 24v, the other 2 to give -24v. i listened to them until they were quite drained as i had not built my charger then.
but during the course of listening, i realsed that at higher voltages, the 3875 was very harsh and bright sounding. i can only listen to a few cds without hurting my ears.
in the end, i settled with 12v rails. charging them to 12.8v or so full charge was enough to last me for a couple of days. i built the charger using a L200 chip. my charger uses 2 such chips and is able to charge 2 batteries at one go.
initially i wanted them connected to the amp, but as of now, i have them separated as i use it to charge other 12v slas being used for my phono and dac. (well... i did buy 4 sla in the first place...)
it's unfortunate to hear that you did not have good experience with chipamps.com. i think your questions can be answered by fellow users of this forum as well.
cheers
garbage
initially i used 4 x 12v sla batteries. i had 2 in series to give 24v, the other 2 to give -24v. i listened to them until they were quite drained as i had not built my charger then.
but during the course of listening, i realsed that at higher voltages, the 3875 was very harsh and bright sounding. i can only listen to a few cds without hurting my ears.
in the end, i settled with 12v rails. charging them to 12.8v or so full charge was enough to last me for a couple of days. i built the charger using a L200 chip. my charger uses 2 such chips and is able to charge 2 batteries at one go.
initially i wanted them connected to the amp, but as of now, i have them separated as i use it to charge other 12v slas being used for my phono and dac. (well... i did buy 4 sla in the first place...)
it's unfortunate to hear that you did not have good experience with chipamps.com. i think your questions can be answered by fellow users of this forum as well.
cheers
garbage
I've build several gain clones, the one that i'm still using is the version with the high grade components, 4*4700uF on the boards, fully snuberized and with a 330Va Amplimo(plitron) transformer.
I've just finished an 41Hz Amp3. Currently running of a (snuberized, rectified, high cap) Toshiba laptop supply.
The gainclone is better in my opinion but it is not a huge difference. I don''t know if I change the supply for a normal transformer based if thath will approve the situation. I've heard of people who liked Switched PSU's above traditional transformer based with the tripaths.
The amp 3 is on 14.3 volts at the board and is able to produce volume levels way above my normal listenening levels although my loudspeakers are <89db efficient.
I've noticed that the Amp3 is a little forward with accoustic guitar (metal strings) and somebody indicated that this was high 3rd order harmonic distortion, I doubt it somehow but are unable to perform such measurements. If any boy has I would like to know.
The amp3 is SMD components, The gainclone is much easier to build
I've just finished an 41Hz Amp3. Currently running of a (snuberized, rectified, high cap) Toshiba laptop supply.
The gainclone is better in my opinion but it is not a huge difference. I don''t know if I change the supply for a normal transformer based if thath will approve the situation. I've heard of people who liked Switched PSU's above traditional transformer based with the tripaths.
The amp 3 is on 14.3 volts at the board and is able to produce volume levels way above my normal listenening levels although my loudspeakers are <89db efficient.
I've noticed that the Amp3 is a little forward with accoustic guitar (metal strings) and somebody indicated that this was high 3rd order harmonic distortion, I doubt it somehow but are unable to perform such measurements. If any boy has I would like to know.
The amp3 is SMD components, The gainclone is much easier to build
I have compared both amps (an unmodified SI T-Amp running from a SLA 7Ah battery and a Chipamp like the one mentioned on my webpages) on an Cyburgs Needle equipped with TB871s without any crossover or notch filter. These speakers sound very good with certain music but fail more or less completely with some overcompressed stuff like Radiohead's "OK Computer" or Björk's "Homogenic".
Both amps sound very good, but so totally different that the comparison is tricky. Many friends, who heard the combinatins favor the SI, because of the more natural or better convincing musical flow and the clear presentation of the music. I am personally not so sure. The Chipamp has much more slam, and - at least for me - sound much more real, instead the SI sound a bit dry and artificial, albeit not in an tiring and uninteresting way. I think the SI sounds good, too good sometimes, although it seems hard to explain why, but I cannot imagine to live with it without any alternative. I am making an AMP3 now and will try different PSUs, to look for further improvements. Both amps do not have the musical involvement of my old Naim-Clones yet, although sort of bettering them in terms of soundstage and 3dimensionalty.
Both amps sound very good, but so totally different that the comparison is tricky. Many friends, who heard the combinatins favor the SI, because of the more natural or better convincing musical flow and the clear presentation of the music. I am personally not so sure. The Chipamp has much more slam, and - at least for me - sound much more real, instead the SI sound a bit dry and artificial, albeit not in an tiring and uninteresting way. I think the SI sounds good, too good sometimes, although it seems hard to explain why, but I cannot imagine to live with it without any alternative. I am making an AMP3 now and will try different PSUs, to look for further improvements. Both amps do not have the musical involvement of my old Naim-Clones yet, although sort of bettering them in terms of soundstage and 3dimensionalty.
Thanks again Garbage, I will look into the charger. I am only using 3" and 4" T-B single driver speakers using about 5 watts power. So the 3875 would be enough power and I found another thread saying the 3875 uses less parts and is easier to build and sounds better than other versions.
From what I read somewhere, the 12v battery is actually multplied by 1.4 so the amp sees 16.8 volts? I was told by one designer that his 3875 amps sound better on 24 volts but 2) 12v SLA would certainly be easier to use.
Here are my newer thoughts why I like the gainclones:
1) "T" amps produce copious amounts of noise and SMT's are a necessity - from DIY Paradise Charlize amp info.
2)) That HF filtering which is necessary on "T" amps. Must do something to the sound or may allow something to pass through.
3) Vague soundstaging issues - the balance between ambient sounds and instruments sounds - as described in Stereophile's Bel-Canto review.
4) I got interested in the "T" amp because of the SI. But the draw there was the $19 price and simple solder in a few better caps. But going to the "real" "T" amps, not the bargain variety and the benefits on an absolute level aren't so great as for a $19 product.
5) People have mentioned a "funny tonality" to the "T" amps. This may not bother some people but it most certainly does for me, for example, when listening to Teac Reference 300 and 500 amps and basically the whole Teac line. This is before Teac went to "T" amps. I remember thinking "the designer at Teac must have a real tin ear to sell stuff that sounds like this". Same thing with the LFD Mistral. Listening through rose colored glasses was my thought - and professional reviewers have also noted the coloration of this amp. My apologies to current owners about knocking these product, just describing how I hear it.
6) I currently use the Denon UD-M31 mini-system with external CDP. I think the Denon uses a chip amp. I agree the sound is bright and, for me, unlistenable with metal dome speakers (B&W 600's and Primus Infinty 140's). But very nice with my paper T-B W3-871s. Tonality is spot-on, piano sounds very accurate, PRAT quite good. Mostly lacks ultimate harmonic purity, slam/punch in bass, and ultimate detail resolution.
From what I read somewhere, the 12v battery is actually multplied by 1.4 so the amp sees 16.8 volts? I was told by one designer that his 3875 amps sound better on 24 volts but 2) 12v SLA would certainly be easier to use.
Here are my newer thoughts why I like the gainclones:
1) "T" amps produce copious amounts of noise and SMT's are a necessity - from DIY Paradise Charlize amp info.
2)) That HF filtering which is necessary on "T" amps. Must do something to the sound or may allow something to pass through.
3) Vague soundstaging issues - the balance between ambient sounds and instruments sounds - as described in Stereophile's Bel-Canto review.
4) I got interested in the "T" amp because of the SI. But the draw there was the $19 price and simple solder in a few better caps. But going to the "real" "T" amps, not the bargain variety and the benefits on an absolute level aren't so great as for a $19 product.
5) People have mentioned a "funny tonality" to the "T" amps. This may not bother some people but it most certainly does for me, for example, when listening to Teac Reference 300 and 500 amps and basically the whole Teac line. This is before Teac went to "T" amps. I remember thinking "the designer at Teac must have a real tin ear to sell stuff that sounds like this". Same thing with the LFD Mistral. Listening through rose colored glasses was my thought - and professional reviewers have also noted the coloration of this amp. My apologies to current owners about knocking these product, just describing how I hear it.
6) I currently use the Denon UD-M31 mini-system with external CDP. I think the Denon uses a chip amp. I agree the sound is bright and, for me, unlistenable with metal dome speakers (B&W 600's and Primus Infinty 140's). But very nice with my paper T-B W3-871s. Tonality is spot-on, piano sounds very accurate, PRAT quite good. Mostly lacks ultimate harmonic purity, slam/punch in bass, and ultimate detail resolution.
IMVHO-
Most of us probably no longer have the hearing of a 17 year old. For me it was jet engines. It didn't take them long, either.
The loss is still a bit of a new thing to me. However, I can only begin to imagine what this has done to my listening 'expertise' (if it was ever there).
Since so many things change from room to room, setup to setup... how do you evaluate a system off-site, without test equipment? Even if you brought your speakers with you, what help would it really be? The room still isn't the same.
I guess you just have to test it all on-site? Finally, what do those of us with hearing loss do to 'compare'? Don't get me wrong, I can separate the genuine junk from the better names, but that's about where it ends.
Most of us probably no longer have the hearing of a 17 year old. For me it was jet engines. It didn't take them long, either.
The loss is still a bit of a new thing to me. However, I can only begin to imagine what this has done to my listening 'expertise' (if it was ever there).
Since so many things change from room to room, setup to setup... how do you evaluate a system off-site, without test equipment? Even if you brought your speakers with you, what help would it really be? The room still isn't the same.
I guess you just have to test it all on-site? Finally, what do those of us with hearing loss do to 'compare'? Don't get me wrong, I can separate the genuine junk from the better names, but that's about where it ends.
Javven, the best thing is to audition in your own home for 2-4 weeks. It can take that long to get a handle on the sound or for ear fatigue to set in. My Dad only hears to 5-7kHz and usually has the same impression of eq. as me. Most of the music is under 5-10K, above that being "air" anyhow.
You may find some help here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr_srch.pl?&1&procsrch&3&4&
and here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=reflexology+tinnitus
The reflex area for tinnitus is the part of the palm just between the pinkie and ring finger on both hands and the same area between the little toe and the one next to it on both feet. I have a book on reflexology but can't find the diagram on line.
You may find some help here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr_srch.pl?&1&procsrch&3&4&
and here:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=reflexology+tinnitus
The reflex area for tinnitus is the part of the palm just between the pinkie and ring finger on both hands and the same area between the little toe and the one next to it on both feet. I have a book on reflexology but can't find the diagram on line.
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