Very very interesting and thank you for the very valuable information
One of the first advice they give is to put some sound absorbent panels in the spot of the 1st reflection from side walls, floor and possibly ceiling
The method is to sit in the listening spot and ask a friend to move a mirror on the side walls When the speakers can be seen in the mirror from the listening spot that is the point on the wall where to place the absorbent panel They say it works quite well
Of course changing the listening spot will change the effect for the worst The reflections will pop up again
I have wondered, if for the listening / living room, one could forgo the sheetrock over studs. Instead, put the fiberglass insulation with the fluffy part facing inward and cover with a sonically transparent material - like burlap. It wouldnt look half bad, give a quasi-anechoic space - and you could always do the sheetrock when you sell the place - or not.
Most electrical engineers here always overlook, or ignore, electromagnetic and electrical fields. Their influence on the organism is considerable, because biology IS electrophysics. Even the increase in well-being due to lower artificial EMF could explain an improvement in sound;-)
By the way: which is why many e-engineers also react exaggeratedly here in the forum when it comes to audio: the EMF e.g. from measuring devices or hi-fi devices are enormous stress for organisms, which manifests itself in insomnia, exhaustion, headaches, memory loss, general malaise, irritability, panic loops and so on;-)
... but EMFs do not exist, and if they do, they have no influence on the organism - although EMFs and their damaging potential are usually pointed out at the beginning of a course of study or training;-)
So that's what's been happening. Does the router / wireless need to be active 24/7?
Sounds like a statement by someone worried about their cash flow... It is to wonder, things did seem so much clearer back before the EMF saturation that we're all currently steeped in like a pickle in brine - or maybe I was just younger then. I havent gone as far as plugging my lappy into a 10T cable, turning the wifi off. Wife would kill me; she juggles 4 wifi devices, me, two. Two routers in the house, one connected by power line enet adapter to the incoming cable modem / router. I sleep within 25 ft of one, maybe 50 ft from the other. Nearest cell is probably 1/2 - 3/4 mile away. I can print something if I'm connected to the right router. An Apple wall wart, occasionally connected to charge something, but powered 24/7 within 1M of my head when I sleep.
One would think there's a proper way to manage the EMI, as it's sprayed pretty willy-nilly in my home environment. FWIW, I never get myself away from it all - vacation to remote region, for a couple weeks, where these electromagnetic fields are less present.
I actually have a pair of transmission line speakers from that inventor ( Bo Hansson, the founder of rauna and opus 3 )
They are molded in concrete, thus giving perfect inner profile and zero wall resonances.
Hi thanks for the very interesting reply When i read
I remember when i got a Sheffield Labs cd test with a track called "Walkaround" intended to be used as a tool to test the soundstage ability of a system
https://musicbrainz.org/release/3fd25406-ceee-40d6-8bdf-7c574d37c350
i played the track ... and i started crying a sound so flat that i cant describe in words
Image depth is everything
Of course the recording must have depth
By the way a very useful cd indeed I hope to find it again in my garbage some day
i dream That has been my final goal always
I remember when i got a Sheffield Labs cd test with a track called "Walkaround" intended to be used as a tool to test the soundstage ability of a system
https://musicbrainz.org/release/3fd25406-ceee-40d6-8bdf-7c574d37c350
i played the track ... and i started crying a sound so flat that i cant describe in words
Image depth is everything
Of course the recording must have depth
By the way a very useful cd indeed I hope to find it again in my garbage some day
If I listen my system from too far, like from other side of the room, the sound localizes to my room, to portion of the room where the speakers are. There is no exact localization, it's just sound overthere. As I start moving closer to speakers, at certain distance localization sharpens and depth is there in that sense that the sound doesn't localize in the room anymore but could come closer to my face, or perhaps further back dependong what spatial cues are in the recording. Definitely left/right localization gets much sharper. It's difference between frontal localizing hazy sound and more 3D kind of eveloping thing, like observing the music from outside, or from inside.
I needed to have eyes closed, and move around in my room listening mono noise to first realize there is this kind of two very different perceptions to stereo phantom image, which changes within roughly one step. I could take one step in to get very strong phantom center, or step back and it was hazy blob somewhere in front. Took a while to find what the perceptual effect was and why it happens and Griesinger Limit of Localization Distance is most accurate description about it, that I've found.
Important thing here to realize is that difference between the two perceptions is my own auditory system switching state, not the stereo or the room. I like to speculate this would happen with any stereo and room, you just need to listen for it, and arrange the system so that you do have a chance (small enough stereo listening triangle). When you hear the transition happen, as you move further / closer from speakers, it validates itself. Now you'd be 100% certain what you hear, which state your auditory system is at because you can validate it by moving your head, find the transition and you know exactly . If you are beyond the transition distance, I suspect it's not possible to hear depth no matter what speakers or room, unless depth you seek is when sound localizes to your room, I don't know what you perceive and want to perceive. But, I perceive depth and any adjectives to good sound when I listen closer than the transition so I suspect it's the one you are looking for.
Two important things here: speakers need to be good enough, which I think is any reasonable speaker not complete trash and is suitable*. Room acoustics matters in many ways, but for transition distance I suspect smaller/acoustically worse rooms you need to get closer to speakers, while on some rooms it can be further away. In domestic room I think it is very likely the transition is no further than maybe 2 meters, I've got it there abouts too. Point is, if you want good sound all the way to practical listening position you might need to do some work, work on acoustics, get good speakers perhaps whose directivity you can use to your advantage to extend the transition far enough to reach/happen with your practical positioning. If uou can't, jistvtake a chair and go listen closer when ever you want to. Just go and find where it happens with your system for you and put your chair there.
This is the stuff I've already written. While I cannot know what you perceive, what are your speakers or room, I coudl rely on Griesinger studies on this and that we all share quite similar auditory system in thisbregard, which he also has found out. This means, if I can hear it anyone could as well, but everyone must do it themselves. I have found it very valuable tool to help listening systems, or listening anything anywhere for that matter, which has helped me to get really good positioning for example, and ideas what the speaker directivity should be and so on. In general the transition, state change of my own auditory system, provides foundation to connect logoc to what I perceive, so helps tremendously with listening skill, for example the statement that depth can only be perceived when close enough tonspeakers, when auditorybsystem is in particular state. What we perceove is not our speaker system, but what our auditory system lets us.
* suitable speakers: I can imagine there could be situation where big speaker and bad room, where one might need very close listening distance due to acoustics, but further distance to get far field of the speaker, which could prevent the thing happening.
ps. overall much of this is speculation by me as I have not listened too many systems in too many rooms, but the few I have all had this, also my friends seem to perceive same thign about at same distance after I tell them about the perceptual shift. So, I hope that this stuff could help you find yours.
Simply, the sound you are looking for might be literally under your nose, move closer to speakers staying equidistant to both, eyes closed, and you'll find out. If not, move speakers closer together and try again. The sound is not necessarily due to gear, or room, but it is necessarily your own head, listening skill 😉
I needed to have eyes closed, and move around in my room listening mono noise to first realize there is this kind of two very different perceptions to stereo phantom image, which changes within roughly one step. I could take one step in to get very strong phantom center, or step back and it was hazy blob somewhere in front. Took a while to find what the perceptual effect was and why it happens and Griesinger Limit of Localization Distance is most accurate description about it, that I've found.
Important thing here to realize is that difference between the two perceptions is my own auditory system switching state, not the stereo or the room. I like to speculate this would happen with any stereo and room, you just need to listen for it, and arrange the system so that you do have a chance (small enough stereo listening triangle). When you hear the transition happen, as you move further / closer from speakers, it validates itself. Now you'd be 100% certain what you hear, which state your auditory system is at because you can validate it by moving your head, find the transition and you know exactly . If you are beyond the transition distance, I suspect it's not possible to hear depth no matter what speakers or room, unless depth you seek is when sound localizes to your room, I don't know what you perceive and want to perceive. But, I perceive depth and any adjectives to good sound when I listen closer than the transition so I suspect it's the one you are looking for.
Two important things here: speakers need to be good enough, which I think is any reasonable speaker not complete trash and is suitable*. Room acoustics matters in many ways, but for transition distance I suspect smaller/acoustically worse rooms you need to get closer to speakers, while on some rooms it can be further away. In domestic room I think it is very likely the transition is no further than maybe 2 meters, I've got it there abouts too. Point is, if you want good sound all the way to practical listening position you might need to do some work, work on acoustics, get good speakers perhaps whose directivity you can use to your advantage to extend the transition far enough to reach/happen with your practical positioning. If uou can't, jistvtake a chair and go listen closer when ever you want to. Just go and find where it happens with your system for you and put your chair there.
This is the stuff I've already written. While I cannot know what you perceive, what are your speakers or room, I coudl rely on Griesinger studies on this and that we all share quite similar auditory system in thisbregard, which he also has found out. This means, if I can hear it anyone could as well, but everyone must do it themselves. I have found it very valuable tool to help listening systems, or listening anything anywhere for that matter, which has helped me to get really good positioning for example, and ideas what the speaker directivity should be and so on. In general the transition, state change of my own auditory system, provides foundation to connect logoc to what I perceive, so helps tremendously with listening skill, for example the statement that depth can only be perceived when close enough tonspeakers, when auditorybsystem is in particular state. What we perceove is not our speaker system, but what our auditory system lets us.
* suitable speakers: I can imagine there could be situation where big speaker and bad room, where one might need very close listening distance due to acoustics, but further distance to get far field of the speaker, which could prevent the thing happening.
ps. overall much of this is speculation by me as I have not listened too many systems in too many rooms, but the few I have all had this, also my friends seem to perceive same thign about at same distance after I tell them about the perceptual shift. So, I hope that this stuff could help you find yours.
Simply, the sound you are looking for might be literally under your nose, move closer to speakers staying equidistant to both, eyes closed, and you'll find out. If not, move speakers closer together and try again. The sound is not necessarily due to gear, or room, but it is necessarily your own head, listening skill 😉
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Yes but using the right track in few seconds you will get any answer you want
The right system in the right room will transport the listener in the recording studio in a shocking and surprising way
The more evident the sensation the better the set up Test tracks are a formidable tool to evaluate a set up
The right system in the right room will transport the listener in the recording studio in a shocking and surprising way
The more evident the sensation the better the set up Test tracks are a formidable tool to evaluate a set up
Yeah, and I speculate that also worse system in worse room can do it, you just need to position the system accordingly, into small enough listening triangle.
Yeah I get there is a lot to tweak on the sound still, point is your auditory system is not the gear or the room but third factor in the equation that makes your perception. I've got one system in one room and have two sounds, which depends on how far I'm listening at and I can change the sound at will, by changing listening position. The room isn't exceptional and also the speakers aren't likely exceptional, but still the sound of the system is 😉 at least in my own context, haven't been in particularly good rooms never actually, some studios yeah, a hifi show, very good live shows of course, playing and recording and mixing as hobby.
Yeah I get there is a lot to tweak on the sound still, point is your auditory system is not the gear or the room but third factor in the equation that makes your perception. I've got one system in one room and have two sounds, which depends on how far I'm listening at and I can change the sound at will, by changing listening position. The room isn't exceptional and also the speakers aren't likely exceptional, but still the sound of the system is 😉 at least in my own context, haven't been in particularly good rooms never actually, some studios yeah, a hifi show, very good live shows of course, playing and recording and mixing as hobby.
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Yeah the test tracks, I think you could use any, i use just pink noise, but whatever that is you listen doesn't matter if you stay still and not knowing which state your auditory system is at, you have no reference in sense. Example, not knowing about this stuff you might sit further than the transition and judge the test recording "nah, the system ain't good, I'm not hearing it", while if you chair happened to be closer you might be "yeah, cool, exactly what I want to hear!", random, unless you know your position is part of the sound you perceive. First, listen what your auditory system, then start evaluating the room and playback.
Which is what I've been trying to explain 😀 walk around, use your perception to make sure your auditory is in state you need it to be able to perceive what is it you want to perceive, only then you can evaluate whether the playback system and room delivers or not. Best case, if it doesn't deliver you have now a listening tool tol help you position things better to improve 😉 there is tremendous advantage knowing this stuff, as it helps you to understand what you perceive and why, so you can gravitate towards what you want to hear with less confusion involved.
Which is what I've been trying to explain 😀 walk around, use your perception to make sure your auditory is in state you need it to be able to perceive what is it you want to perceive, only then you can evaluate whether the playback system and room delivers or not. Best case, if it doesn't deliver you have now a listening tool tol help you position things better to improve 😉 there is tremendous advantage knowing this stuff, as it helps you to understand what you perceive and why, so you can gravitate towards what you want to hear with less confusion involved.
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sorry but here i disagree I am sure that installation engineers for instance in theaters use very specific track to check the performance of the PA systems
For me that i rate soundstage above any other thing a track specific to test this ability is a God gift
I know that this track in the right room with the right equipment can sound sublime
Therefore if it sounds bad there will be two main suspects ... the listening room or the system I tend to think more the room to be honest
There are opinions that the room is even more important of the system In the sense that a decent system in a great room could sound better than a great system in a undecent room Room That is the problem A dedicated and acoustically treated room I wonder how many people can afford that
It was like hearing a LP I thought a little too much because it did not have a remote control
When i went back to buy it it was gone It is very very natural sounding Great player I can feel good sounds when i hear them
For me that i rate soundstage above any other thing a track specific to test this ability is a God gift
I know that this track in the right room with the right equipment can sound sublime
Therefore if it sounds bad there will be two main suspects ... the listening room or the system I tend to think more the room to be honest
There are opinions that the room is even more important of the system In the sense that a decent system in a great room could sound better than a great system in a undecent room Room That is the problem A dedicated and acoustically treated room I wonder how many people can afford that
you mean that i should clean my ears ? seriously Every time i heard great sound it was indeed great sound And i was immediately aware of hearing a great sound But it is very easy Just to make an example i went to a vintage audio market years ago I heard a Grunding cd player sounding a piano track
It was like hearing a LP I thought a little too much because it did not have a remote control
When i went back to buy it it was gone It is very very natural sounding Great player I can feel good sounds when i hear them
Well yeah there is many ways a system can sound bad, point is, that even the bad system can sound worse and better on some aspects, like localization which is very important quality in a stereo systems overall. Localization is bad with lot of early reflections, becaise auditory system cannot compute where the source is! But for example room modes could make bass sound bad, this is somewhat unrelated bad sound to what I try to explain and needs to be addressed separately. Or if the tweeters sound like someone is sticking ice picks to your ears.
Auditory system is not only your ears, but also functions in your brain that processes the information collected by ears. There is computer in your head which you cannot directly have influence on, but which is influenced by many things outside your control. It combines many sensory inputs like what you see with your eyes, for example seeing a sound source helps to localize it.
I like to think my perception of sound, which is conscious thing as I'm aware of experiencing a sound, is not what goes into my ear but what unconscious part of my brain provides! There is processor between ears and perception, which takes what comes to ears (and other sensors) as input and outputs it to my consciousness as a perception. This is what you want to learn to listen to, the processor inside your own head 😉 Thisnisnhigjly philosophical stuff in sense, and my description are very layman, but I just want to make it understandable. Please check Griesinger videos/articles for more.
Anyway, the case when sound is very good, localization is good so that depth is perceived, or whatever adjectives you want to use for best possible sound you know, the situation where you are just drawn in to the sound, the unconscious part is handling the sound with priority and makes you pay attention to the sound, involuntarily. Conversely, when unconscious parts doesn't process the sound with priority, you have no attention to it, hard to get any detail out of the perception because the unconscious part of your auditory system is not aligned what is it that you want to hear, but prevents you basically. This is very important to know, because listening distance can change the state whether or not your brain handless the sound as you want.
Perhaps thats exactly what you want sometimes, less involving sound, so it's extremely important to learn to listen for this in my opinion to understand whether your processor is listening the sound providing all the detail, or not. Even though you cannot think your brain to process the sound for you as you wish, we can't control subconscious parts of our brain, you can trick it by moving yourself into a position where it does!
All right, it's fun to write about this and I'm sorry if it feels like broken record so I'll pull back for now unless you want to talk more about it. It's very important stuff in my opinion to reach good sound and I see a lot of confusion on peoples writings that seem to stem from not knowing about this, so I have written about it as many occasions as possible 🙂
Auditory system is not only your ears, but also functions in your brain that processes the information collected by ears. There is computer in your head which you cannot directly have influence on, but which is influenced by many things outside your control. It combines many sensory inputs like what you see with your eyes, for example seeing a sound source helps to localize it.
I like to think my perception of sound, which is conscious thing as I'm aware of experiencing a sound, is not what goes into my ear but what unconscious part of my brain provides! There is processor between ears and perception, which takes what comes to ears (and other sensors) as input and outputs it to my consciousness as a perception. This is what you want to learn to listen to, the processor inside your own head 😉 Thisnisnhigjly philosophical stuff in sense, and my description are very layman, but I just want to make it understandable. Please check Griesinger videos/articles for more.
Anyway, the case when sound is very good, localization is good so that depth is perceived, or whatever adjectives you want to use for best possible sound you know, the situation where you are just drawn in to the sound, the unconscious part is handling the sound with priority and makes you pay attention to the sound, involuntarily. Conversely, when unconscious parts doesn't process the sound with priority, you have no attention to it, hard to get any detail out of the perception because the unconscious part of your auditory system is not aligned what is it that you want to hear, but prevents you basically. This is very important to know, because listening distance can change the state whether or not your brain handless the sound as you want.
Perhaps thats exactly what you want sometimes, less involving sound, so it's extremely important to learn to listen for this in my opinion to understand whether your processor is listening the sound providing all the detail, or not. Even though you cannot think your brain to process the sound for you as you wish, we can't control subconscious parts of our brain, you can trick it by moving yourself into a position where it does!
All right, it's fun to write about this and I'm sorry if it feels like broken record so I'll pull back for now unless you want to talk more about it. It's very important stuff in my opinion to reach good sound and I see a lot of confusion on peoples writings that seem to stem from not knowing about this, so I have written about it as many occasions as possible 🙂
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thank you very much again One point you raise is of utmost importance
It makes a big difference indeed I can focus better just on sounds
To be fair i have never tried a different listening spot I just point the speakers to the listening spot and stop
Usually speakers are optimized for a listening on axis
I am sure that the worst offenders for the soundstage reproduction are walls and objects in the room
Unfortunately i have always a glass panel just between me and the front wall ... the tv set
I am sure that if i had to remove the tv and put some absorbing panel on the front wall the sound landscape will have a nice improvement But i also like to watch music concerts a lot And for that i need a tv
this is why i try to listen in the dark or blindfolded To keep eyes shut down can be stressing I use a soft sleeping mask
It makes a big difference indeed I can focus better just on sounds
To be fair i have never tried a different listening spot I just point the speakers to the listening spot and stop
Usually speakers are optimized for a listening on axis
I am sure that the worst offenders for the soundstage reproduction are walls and objects in the room
Unfortunately i have always a glass panel just between me and the front wall ... the tv set
I am sure that if i had to remove the tv and put some absorbing panel on the front wall the sound landscape will have a nice improvement But i also like to watch music concerts a lot And for that i need a tv
Yeah basically, toe-in of speakers serve two important but very different purpose. When you toe-in a speaker whose coverage angle narrows from low frequencies to high frequencies, like in any conventional speaker, the toe-in adjusts what frequency response is toward each specular early reflection. When speaker is toed-in, high frequency content on the front-wall early reflection gets louder, same for opposing side wall, also perhaps backwall reflection, but the same side wall reflection gets less highs. The other function toe-in has, as the highest hights are very directional frequency balance of direct sound also changes.
Here is what the speaker directivity plays a huge role in, if speaker is designed to be listened at particular angle only, it pretty much locks in adjustability of early reflections, because you must use some particular toe-in to get the direct sound nicely balanced. In this case all you can do is play with room acoustics and positioning, how far speakers and listener are from each other but also how far everything is from walls. Adjusting the positioning affects relationship of direct sound to early reflections and also direct sound level compared to overall noise level in the room including "late reverberation" and also changes how loud the system needs to be so that there is some particular SPL at ears.
So, the positioning and size of stereo triangle has huge effect how much early reflections affect perception of sound. When early reflections are loud and come right after direct sound, brain has hard time to lock in to the direct sound and mainly provides a lot of the early reflections in a way, now perception of sound localizes to your room due to the strong early reflections, auditory system cannot pick the localization cues in the direct sound so you cannot perceive them either. There is 6 first reflections in a room and if you listen your speakers far away combined they are much much louder than direct sound and come right after. Conversely, when the listening distance is shortened path length of direct sound gets shorter while most early reflections get longer, and result is early reflections move later in time after direct sound, but also some are now more off-axis to speaker depending toe-in and their frequency response changes, but also SPL relationship changes, they are bit quieter now.
When you scale the listening triangle like so, there is some size which seems to be where perception of sound changes, where the direct sound is finally loud enough and early reflections delayed enough, that the brain locks in and you'd get sharp localization and engagement and all that. The local room seems to supress from perception, your brain is not focusing to the early reflection dominated room sound but to the direct sound instead, and you hear the localization cues on the recording.
Simple demo with https://amcoustics.com/tools/amray:
This is top down view to a cubicle room. Speakers are the red dots, black dot is the listener, and blue lines are first order early reflections and the direct sound of one speaker. The other speaker would have similar reflections assuming symmetrical positioning. Bottom of the image shows the early reflections on timeline, how late from direct sound they come.
Now if just the listener moves bit closer to speakers, you'd already see some of the delays change, angles toward the reflections change
If we pull the speakers closer there is further delay on the early reflections. this is shrinking the stereo triangle.
The front wall reflection is nasty there, doesn't seem to get delay more than 2ms or so in this case, but If you pull the whole small triangle further from the front wall it delays as well.
You might want to put something on the front wall if you wanted to, but that is quite much behind the speakers depending on toe-in, and you might not have to. Because, if you hear the transition where your auditory system locks in, that's most of the battle won and front wall reflection is as good as it needs to be for this to happen! Everything that needs to happen for perception to change from local room to the recording has happened! Although, you could further refine the sound beyond this using acoustic treatment, but I don't think it's necessity as long as you just play with positioning and try to perceive if you can make the brain to lock in to direct sound. This is already huge win.
I have no idea bout your room or speakers or anything so I cannot give any exact advice other than try experiementing with size of your stereo triangle, and easiest way to adjust it is to move yourself, move your chair closer, or even better if your mobility is fine go crunching on the ground so you can freely move yourself closer or further from speakers. Nice thing here is that our auditory systems function similarly, you always carry yours, I'll always carry mine so I'm able to try and guide you noticing yours regardless of our systems in a functional way, but you still have to do it by yourself and try to really focus on what you perceive 🙂
Here is what the speaker directivity plays a huge role in, if speaker is designed to be listened at particular angle only, it pretty much locks in adjustability of early reflections, because you must use some particular toe-in to get the direct sound nicely balanced. In this case all you can do is play with room acoustics and positioning, how far speakers and listener are from each other but also how far everything is from walls. Adjusting the positioning affects relationship of direct sound to early reflections and also direct sound level compared to overall noise level in the room including "late reverberation" and also changes how loud the system needs to be so that there is some particular SPL at ears.
So, the positioning and size of stereo triangle has huge effect how much early reflections affect perception of sound. When early reflections are loud and come right after direct sound, brain has hard time to lock in to the direct sound and mainly provides a lot of the early reflections in a way, now perception of sound localizes to your room due to the strong early reflections, auditory system cannot pick the localization cues in the direct sound so you cannot perceive them either. There is 6 first reflections in a room and if you listen your speakers far away combined they are much much louder than direct sound and come right after. Conversely, when the listening distance is shortened path length of direct sound gets shorter while most early reflections get longer, and result is early reflections move later in time after direct sound, but also some are now more off-axis to speaker depending toe-in and their frequency response changes, but also SPL relationship changes, they are bit quieter now.
When you scale the listening triangle like so, there is some size which seems to be where perception of sound changes, where the direct sound is finally loud enough and early reflections delayed enough, that the brain locks in and you'd get sharp localization and engagement and all that. The local room seems to supress from perception, your brain is not focusing to the early reflection dominated room sound but to the direct sound instead, and you hear the localization cues on the recording.
Simple demo with https://amcoustics.com/tools/amray:
This is top down view to a cubicle room. Speakers are the red dots, black dot is the listener, and blue lines are first order early reflections and the direct sound of one speaker. The other speaker would have similar reflections assuming symmetrical positioning. Bottom of the image shows the early reflections on timeline, how late from direct sound they come.
Now if just the listener moves bit closer to speakers, you'd already see some of the delays change, angles toward the reflections change
If we pull the speakers closer there is further delay on the early reflections. this is shrinking the stereo triangle.
The front wall reflection is nasty there, doesn't seem to get delay more than 2ms or so in this case, but If you pull the whole small triangle further from the front wall it delays as well.
You might want to put something on the front wall if you wanted to, but that is quite much behind the speakers depending on toe-in, and you might not have to. Because, if you hear the transition where your auditory system locks in, that's most of the battle won and front wall reflection is as good as it needs to be for this to happen! Everything that needs to happen for perception to change from local room to the recording has happened! Although, you could further refine the sound beyond this using acoustic treatment, but I don't think it's necessity as long as you just play with positioning and try to perceive if you can make the brain to lock in to direct sound. This is already huge win.
I have no idea bout your room or speakers or anything so I cannot give any exact advice other than try experiementing with size of your stereo triangle, and easiest way to adjust it is to move yourself, move your chair closer, or even better if your mobility is fine go crunching on the ground so you can freely move yourself closer or further from speakers. Nice thing here is that our auditory systems function similarly, you always carry yours, I'll always carry mine so I'm able to try and guide you noticing yours regardless of our systems in a functional way, but you still have to do it by yourself and try to really focus on what you perceive 🙂
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If you want to experiement with this it's kinda easy, no need to invest, or no need to spend too much time either 🙂
1. Put mono pink noise playing, make sure it is mono, purpose is to enable maximally strong dry phantom center image. You can find mono noise from youtube or generate with some mobile app, or what ever you have at hand, split mistuned FM radio to both channels or something.
2. If your speakers are very widely spaced, perhaps bring them in to a base width of less than 3 meters to start, less than half of your room dimension. Use toe-in you like, perhaps toe-in a little at least.
3. Arrange some space between you and the speakers so you can move yourself freely closer and further from speakers, always equidistant to both.
4. go standing / sitting / crouching at some far distance, perhaps even otherside of the room
5. eyes closed, focus on listening size and focus of the phantom center, there shouldn't be any, I perceive it as a hazy field of sound somewhere in front of me, not sharply localized or focused in anyway.
6. now start moving yourself closer to speakers and listen size of the phantom image (noise), eyes closed
7. at some distance before you hit to the television / front wall, the phantom image should shrink and get focus to it. This is the transition.
8. move back and forth about at distance where you think the perception changes from hazy/unfocused sound to more concentrated focused image, try to find the distance exactly where you think it happens. You can self define where you think the distance is, what you think is difference between hazy and sharp image to you.
9. Mark the transition distance down somehow, or if there is no clear transition mark two spots, one where you think there is hazy sound, and one where there is more focused sound. Point is you can put music on, and change your position over the transition at will and compare what you perceive, how perception of stereo changes due to your own auditory system.
I'm assuming here that the transition is found, which migth not be the case always, but I suspect it should be there also for you in your room with your speakers. If it doesn't perhaps try again, you could change toe-in and distance of the speakers, I hope you find it.
If you find it, have some fun and put some music on and focus listening the phantom images, but also how you perceive all your surroundings overall, what's the overall impression and so on. Compare how the sound changes when you move over the transition. After you get more familiar with it, experiment with toe-in and so on, you should be able to listen the changes just by listening moving both sides of the transition to AB how the direct sound and early reflections sound.
If this positioning was not practical ideal to you, you can arrange everything again the way you want it, just listen if you get the perception you want by finding the transition. In my opinion ideal listening distance is at the transition, because leaning in gives the focused sound of recording and learning back the laidback local room sound and I can switch at will, per recording, and per mood.
If it is hard to make the positioning practical, you still have the knowledge now and you could take a chair to good sounding location when ever you want to. Or, perhaps can listen what kind of a speaker and acoustic treatment could help 😉
1. Put mono pink noise playing, make sure it is mono, purpose is to enable maximally strong dry phantom center image. You can find mono noise from youtube or generate with some mobile app, or what ever you have at hand, split mistuned FM radio to both channels or something.
2. If your speakers are very widely spaced, perhaps bring them in to a base width of less than 3 meters to start, less than half of your room dimension. Use toe-in you like, perhaps toe-in a little at least.
3. Arrange some space between you and the speakers so you can move yourself freely closer and further from speakers, always equidistant to both.
4. go standing / sitting / crouching at some far distance, perhaps even otherside of the room
5. eyes closed, focus on listening size and focus of the phantom center, there shouldn't be any, I perceive it as a hazy field of sound somewhere in front of me, not sharply localized or focused in anyway.
6. now start moving yourself closer to speakers and listen size of the phantom image (noise), eyes closed
7. at some distance before you hit to the television / front wall, the phantom image should shrink and get focus to it. This is the transition.
8. move back and forth about at distance where you think the perception changes from hazy/unfocused sound to more concentrated focused image, try to find the distance exactly where you think it happens. You can self define where you think the distance is, what you think is difference between hazy and sharp image to you.
9. Mark the transition distance down somehow, or if there is no clear transition mark two spots, one where you think there is hazy sound, and one where there is more focused sound. Point is you can put music on, and change your position over the transition at will and compare what you perceive, how perception of stereo changes due to your own auditory system.
I'm assuming here that the transition is found, which migth not be the case always, but I suspect it should be there also for you in your room with your speakers. If it doesn't perhaps try again, you could change toe-in and distance of the speakers, I hope you find it.
If you find it, have some fun and put some music on and focus listening the phantom images, but also how you perceive all your surroundings overall, what's the overall impression and so on. Compare how the sound changes when you move over the transition. After you get more familiar with it, experiment with toe-in and so on, you should be able to listen the changes just by listening moving both sides of the transition to AB how the direct sound and early reflections sound.
If this positioning was not practical ideal to you, you can arrange everything again the way you want it, just listen if you get the perception you want by finding the transition. In my opinion ideal listening distance is at the transition, because leaning in gives the focused sound of recording and learning back the laidback local room sound and I can switch at will, per recording, and per mood.
If it is hard to make the positioning practical, you still have the knowledge now and you could take a chair to good sounding location when ever you want to. Or, perhaps can listen what kind of a speaker and acoustic treatment could help 😉
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It would. I once rented a house with a fireplace / hearth. Setup speakers on either side of it. I swear, soundstage depth went into the fireplace cavity. Which told me it'll fill out where ever it can. Then I bought a Sanyo 31" CRT TV and shoved that in the fireplace. Compromises...
Instead of headphones and a big flat screen, I wonder about VR for the eyes part and speakers with as much room to breathe as possible?
Yes and no.
Allen, sorry if it seems like I want to correct you (I don't want to), but I studied the topic many years ago and I'm glad to make some clarifications here.
In good health conditions, inside the tympanic cavity there is only air and the tympanic membrane is in pressure homeostasis.
The above means that the level of atmospheric pressure present on the external side of the tympanic membrane is similar (almost equal) to the level of atmospheric pressure present on the internal side of the tympanic membrane (which in any case is not in direct contact with atmospheric pressure) thanks most of all to the Eustachian tube.
In particular cases, a certain pressure can be generated on the external tympanic membrane, for example during an airplane journey, or underwater when we dive to a certain depth.
In that case it is sufficient to "compensate" the difference in pressure between the external and internal tympanic membrane by pinching the nose between the fingers and "blowing" air delicately with the mouth closed, as everyone knows.
So it is only in these (very few) cases that the tympanic membrane "will push and pull" because otherwise (almost always) it is in homeostasis.
I can only add that atmospheric pressure could theoretically interfere with hearing, but this is more theoretical than practical and not even worth mentioning it. 😉
Anyway, while listening the eardrum doesn't move, it "simply" vibrates.
While it feels like "pulling air" in, there is no physical "pulling connection" between the lung/diaphragm and the air that feels "pulled in".
when creating the low pressure volume in the lung the atmospheric pressure pushes air in.
(Excuse me nit picking!)
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