Thank you for this comment You give me hope
Honestly i truly believe in dedicated listening room Like audio manufacturers have to test their creations
I have followed the video series on the construction of the Ps Audio listening room with great interest
I know it is a very expensive luxury ... but i had once the opportunity to be in such a room with a great system and the experience was very very nice
Thank you very much indeed This is very important and differently from what i have done until now I usually follow the equilateral triangle rule
I understand now that the rule is wrong Very important indeed
It will be even easier to do because it takes less space
To find the reflection point mirrors can be used moved along the walls When i see the speaker reflected in the mirror i have found the reflection poin
Another test that i would like to perform is for the front baffle vibrations
Just sticking a small mirror on the baffle with biadesive tape then using a laser pointer hitting the mirror with lets say a 45° angle watching if the reflected laser point on a wall moves with music
If the point on the wall shakes that will mean that also the front baffle is shaking Really not a good thing
I agree completely A recording is not a sculpture Again it is important that the copy of the original master is true to the original
This is a very challenging task indeed But also very fascinating
Well. The system and the listening room have to match. Above all, loudspeakers must be appropriate in terms of their size and dispersion characteristics. And the positioning of the LS is also essential. Most hi-fi enthusiasts are not even aware of this. In most cases, very serious mistakes are made here, which are then concealed or corrected using acoustic elements.
Aside: I like to hear Katia play because her body, arms, hands, fingers are not too small and light: they correspond to the mass-stiffness and size ratios of a piano - more than most other pianists 😉
Aside: I like to hear Katia play because her body, arms, hands, fingers are not too small and light: they correspond to the mass-stiffness and size ratios of a piano - more than most other pianists 😉
Most speaker cabinets vibrate like the devil. And you can hear it: they de-color the sound enormously and smear the tempo. Many people think they don't have enough bass or fundamental, but it's the mid-range distortion of the cabinets (most wooden material) that causes the impurities and lack of clarity. Another or further subs doesn't bring the clarity;-)
But not only the vibrations but also the reflections on the baffles are audible. The front hits you in the face with both the reflections and the resonances: it therefore makes sense not to point the speakers directly at the listening position. At least the front of large speakers should be covered with damping materials.
Then there is also the tilt resonances of the speakers. Stands and their structure, rigidity and mass for compact speakers.
And more;-)
I would not use a laser, I would use blankets, because I want to hear the influences and differences;-)
Yeah speakers need to be problem free enough, so that they do not have sound of their own which would compete with music for listener attention. Amplifier / driver distortion is just one thing, but all kinds of resonances within the speaker construct and also acoustic issues like edge diffraction, early reflections, room modes all kinds of things in the system can steal attention from music. These also depend on listening skill, some people are perfectly happy listening their mobile phone painfully loud for example, or have their expensive stereo haphazardly positioned never noticing the room ruins the sound.
Yes, our systems sound only as good as our listening skill! Even if there was ideal system, but the operator fails to make it run there it goes 🙂
I'm not too worried: someone who has a very limited hearing range, e.g. 500 Hz to 2 kHz, will listen to his everyday life and also his hi-fi with it. He will also listen to direction, contour, color-contour-size ratio, tempo, etc. and set up his system accordingly.
On the other hand, who benefits from hearing from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, for example, if he place the loudspeakers right and left of the 3-meters-shelf, or in the corners
- or in the swimming pool;-)
On the other hand, who benefits from hearing from 20 Hz to 20 kHz, for example, if he place the loudspeakers right and left of the 3-meters-shelf, or in the corners
- or in the swimming pool;-)
Hi good morning I agree
And i think that basic principle to clarify is that one thing is a musical instrument that generates sounds and another one is a speaker that reproduce sounds
The tasks are very different and also the design and construction should be different
The guitar body must resonate a speaker body must not
i can say that the best speakers i heard had all a high mass cabinet The reason can be explained
If we take a big woofer the air pushed forward by the cone generates a force in the opposite direction
If we put the cabinet on those feet made of teflon and put on some hard disco the cabinet will move backward ... i guess
This force should be neutralized if not the cabinet vibrates
Of course woofer is the worst vibes generator
My test is very basic but it could be quite telling about a panel vibration
I once read a very interesting analogy about the effects of a vibrating front baffle
it's like asking a friend to hold a newspaper page spread out and steady before our eyes and start reading
And then continue reading while the friend moves the newspaper back and forth. It's a beastly effort
It's not for nothing that some manufacturers make very thick, stiff and heavy front baffles. And they happen to sound very good too
yes i see Personally i would be more worried about side walls, floor and ceiling reflections I would put some kind of felts around the mid and the high drivers
i would put also some kind of felt on the internal walls of a horn Just to try the effect
A very convenient way to address the issue of reflections from walls is to narrow the speaker H and V emission The 1st reflections as someone has already pointed out are the worst There is a reason why audio engineers during sound editing listen in the near field ... usually From small speakers
For the bass subs placed in front of the desk with delay on the small speakers can be very useful
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It depends; on my second last speaker project, I made the cabinet from 3.4 mm ply, extensively stiffened and braced, resulting in a light weight (1 kg per cabinet) as rigid) to give is a high resonant frequency; as the design was a WAW, the enclosure is only excited by the bass frequencies, well bellow the cabinet resonant frequency, and the wide band driver is mechanically decoupled from it - but I will accept that this is a rare exception, a way to cheat the rules. On almost every other speaker I've done, I've used ways to dampen the cabinet - like the screwed on front and back of the BBC LS35a, or felt/carpet tile lining, decoupling the drivers, or box in a box.
Well congratulations Actually my feeling is that is very difficult to cheat with the rules of physics
I am not an expert but if you design works fine it must mean that it is right
Imho assuming the drivers moving membrane as the main vibes generator domes and light mid cones should not be a issue
Woofers are the issue Their cone can be as heavy as 200-300 grams
For this reason i would study in depth the design and construction of cabinet for sub The best designs have lot to teach
For the same reason if i had to make a speaker i would go with a sat plus sub solution like the Wilson Audio Watt plus Puppy And try to mechanically decouple the sat from the bass box like they actually do at Wilson Audio
Once that the bass cabinet is good it is done
I have seen also sats placed on completely separate stands
I am not an expert but if you design works fine it must mean that it is right
Imho assuming the drivers moving membrane as the main vibes generator domes and light mid cones should not be a issue
Woofers are the issue Their cone can be as heavy as 200-300 grams
For this reason i would study in depth the design and construction of cabinet for sub The best designs have lot to teach
For the same reason if i had to make a speaker i would go with a sat plus sub solution like the Wilson Audio Watt plus Puppy And try to mechanically decouple the sat from the bass box like they actually do at Wilson Audio
Once that the bass cabinet is good it is done
I have seen also sats placed on completely separate stands
Another tip: The drivers should be installed decoupled. This dampens the cabinet vibrations and material resonances more: they are quieter on the membrans and the driver sounds are transmitted less to the cabinet. The drivers should also be clamped: The basket and magnet no longer wobble undefined. And this gives you room to coat the driver with damping material e.g. This usually enables tuning without passive crossover components. Which is very beneficial to the sound.
By the way: we had built a pair of speakers for our wine bar: made of balsa wood, 3 mm thick walls. We screwed in a Fostex 168 and connected a small, fine balanced SE. That was a great listen;-) But not suitable for home listening in the long term: such a wooden box is a fun maker with a special charm and character that is not suitable for analytical, relaxed listening at home. 😉
By the way: we had built a pair of speakers for our wine bar: made of balsa wood, 3 mm thick walls. We screwed in a Fostex 168 and connected a small, fine balanced SE. That was a great listen;-) But not suitable for home listening in the long term: such a wooden box is a fun maker with a special charm and character that is not suitable for analytical, relaxed listening at home. 😉
very interesting indeed I would have tried the Fostex as satellite from 200Hz up
I was thinking that maybe the most delicate drivers for vibrations are the domes Their diaphragms move very little and even small vibes can add to these tiny movements ?
i would bolt a steel bar in the middle of the front baffle Like a stiffener and mass increaser
I much like this cabinet
I was thinking that maybe the most delicate drivers for vibrations are the domes Their diaphragms move very little and even small vibes can add to these tiny movements ?
i would bolt a steel bar in the middle of the front baffle Like a stiffener and mass increaser
I much like this cabinet
The steel bar: where and how exactly?
My experience is that all drivers benefit in the same way, because they are all influenced in the same way and to the same extent: a loudspeaker is above all a tuning of material sounds. That's why I prefer full range drivers: instead of different materials and therefore sounds, which are also modulated in different places and at different times and by electronic components of the crossover or even by different amplifiers... with multi-way loudspeakers.
A tip regarding subwoofers: it may be that the maximum sound is only achieved when they are positioned behind the satellite speakers. This is because their enclosures boom and drone in a clearly audible and localisable range - no matter how low you place them. Placing them behind the satellite speakers reduces this irritating and sound-degrading effect.
My experience is that all drivers benefit in the same way, because they are all influenced in the same way and to the same extent: a loudspeaker is above all a tuning of material sounds. That's why I prefer full range drivers: instead of different materials and therefore sounds, which are also modulated in different places and at different times and by electronic components of the crossover or even by different amplifiers... with multi-way loudspeakers.
A tip regarding subwoofers: it may be that the maximum sound is only achieved when they are positioned behind the satellite speakers. This is because their enclosures boom and drone in a clearly audible and localisable range - no matter how low you place them. Placing them behind the satellite speakers reduces this irritating and sound-degrading effect.
In one pair of speakers I made, the front baffle is held on by tension springs, against a cork gasket, but the cork gasket is held in place by square section steel bars than run vertically, in this way there is a front baffle/cork/steel sandwich that both stiffens, and damps the front baffle. In my box in a box speakers, both (cone) tweeter and mid-bass drivers had their own boxes, that were inside the main enclosure, held by compression springs against foam gaskets inside the front baffle, mechanically insulating both from each other, and the main enclosure, also giving a "double glazing" effect to stop the air vibration transferring to the outside.
Well the weakest point in a panel is in the center where it bents more The idea is to stiff the center in some ways
For instance a bar bolted to the baffle It it is in steel it will add also mass to the baffle and make the panel stiffer in its weakest point
But again imho it is important to separate the bigger woofer from other drivers A two pieces speakers
I do not like full range tower speakers They are design to cope with the WAF Because slim and nice cabinets are more tolerate by women
They look at the speakers as another piece of furniture usually
It is quite easy to put together a decent 3 ways when the bass box is done right with the right driver
With a friend we did a test We took a pair of JBL speakers with a very good 10" He made a crossover that sent the frequencies below the 200Hz to the JBL and the ones above to a nice small 2 ways speaker We enjoy more the sat plu sub solution that the JBL speaker standalone
The choice of speakers that could be very very good above 200Hz is almost endless And some are also quite cheap
I agree that the coherence of a single driver is unbeatable ... but you have to compromise on bass and very highs
Some mid woofer can be used without crossover There are rare but they exist Some testing is mandatory
I would like to make clear that i use sub for the 3 way ... the box with the woofer I do not use real subwoofers
A good 10 or 12" should be able to provide a very decent bass Above that almost any decent 2 way would do the trick I have about a dozen to try
When you relieve the 2 way speaker of the commitment to emit frequencies below 200Hz even a 5-6" woofer can work very well. It becomes a low mid
I also would prefer separate housings. This makes it easier to tune the sound of drivers and materials and resonances and all that.
There are locksmiths who offer aluminum plates with cut-outs, for example. I've been thinking about an aluminum housing for a while. I would glue it.
The tip about trying to position subs is addressed to everyone. The belief that subs can't be located, that their cabinets don't vibrate audibly and all that is ignorance.
It seems to me that this thread is dealing with a loudspeaker story that is far away from the experience of the vast majority of audio freaks;-) When I think of what else might come next in terms of sources, amplifiers and so on...-)
There are locksmiths who offer aluminum plates with cut-outs, for example. I've been thinking about an aluminum housing for a while. I would glue it.
The tip about trying to position subs is addressed to everyone. The belief that subs can't be located, that their cabinets don't vibrate audibly and all that is ignorance.
It seems to me that this thread is dealing with a loudspeaker story that is far away from the experience of the vast majority of audio freaks;-) When I think of what else might come next in terms of sources, amplifiers and so on...-)
i heard that aluminum cabinet work very good Their ringing being high in frequency has little energy and can be easily eliminated with some acoustic panels placed strategically on the internal sides of the cabinet They will be very expensive But they could sound fantastic
I am sure that even just a front baffle made with aluminum could work very fine
But once dealt the woofer box issue the rest of the job would be much much easier Here another old example of what i mean
I am sure that even just a front baffle made with aluminum could work very fine
But once dealt the woofer box issue the rest of the job would be much much easier Here another old example of what i mean