Sound card or DAC upgrade on tight budget

[vann]

Hello,

My current audio card is Audigy 2 ZS and I was thinking if maybe some upgrade on tight budget is possible...
I'm in middle of several DIY projects (loudspeakers, subwoofer, headphone amplifier)... So my audio budget is quite pressed ATM.

Can somebody comment on Audigy 2 ZS sound output quality?
More precisely, how would it fare against Asus Xonar DS or D1... or maybe against some low cost DIY DAC, like GrubDAC or BantamDAC?

I know that Audigy 2 ZS is quite outdated now, but back in it's time it was not so bad card. Maybe considering the options, I should stick with what I have for a year or so (until I can afford some bigger upgrade)?

To give some more input, the loudspeakers I'm building are based on full range drivers from Fostex (FE207E). They should supposedly be quite unforgiving of a bad source... so I'm concerned about the quality of sound reproduction.

Any suggestions?

 

[frenzic]

There are quite a few nice pci-based solutions to your problem witch would not be expensive to purchase. I mean you could get a second hand bitperfect pro card for use with solid 6.3 mm neutriks containing serious dac. I bought a Marian Prodiff Plus for just about zilch and never looked back. I also use a Audiotrek Maya 44 MKII wich cost next to nothing to get optical signal out of my workstation into my music pc. Works like a charm. As an upgrade path you could feed it a master clock signal. Lots of possibilities even without getting a stand alone dac.

 

[vann]

Interesting approach.
I couldn't find any offering for your gear but I sure get your idea... Tnx. A bit outdated hardware, which was very competitive few years back is really a best buy option.

This exactly what I should pursue in general, but it's not something to do in a hurry.
I need something right now and in shorter term maybe I should go for some low cost DIY DAC (like grubdac).
I was hoping that maybe somebody here had experience with this (or similar) DAC and with a sound card of similar quality.

Tnx again for the excellent idea.

 

[oublie]

I still have a number of zs cards but upgraded about 6 months ago to an audiotrak prodigy 7.1 hifi. This is an excellent card with swappable opamps if you can find one second hand on ebay go for it.

As for is it worth it personally i would concentrate on getting your other projects sorted before upgrading the digital side. one thing i've notice with changing source, amps and speakers it's the speakers that will always be the most significant change. I didn't really notice any major changes going from an external cheapish dac to teh zs and then to the audiotrak however, for me the change was necessary in order to work with active crossovers.

 

[vann]

oublie, I smiled when I sow you mentioning the prodigy 7.1 hifi... I was just reading about it an hour ago. Stumbled to it (and also, Prodigy HD2) when I was looking for older undervalued cards.
Alas, the price of a new one is still out of reach (for me) for now and I couldn't find some used ones on ebay.

BTW, are you using software crossover?

 

[nightanole]

If you just want a dac and are not powering a set of cans from it, why not a usb dac?

grubdac
bantam dac
amb gamma 1
amb gamma 2

listed from cheapest to most expensive.

 

[oublie]

oublie, I smiled when I sow you mentioning the prodigy 7.1 hifi... I was just reading about it an hour ago. Stumbled to it (and also, Prodigy HD2) when I was looking for older undervalued cards.
Alas, the price of a new one is still out of reach (for me) for now and I couldn't find some used ones on ebay.

BTW, are you using software crossover?

yes running 3 way active crossovers on the computer output via the prodigy - nice card but only works well with windows xp it doen't play well with vista or win 7

I'm planning on getting a second card as you can sync the clocks from one to the other this will allow me fully active surround sound

 

[vann]

yes, I noticed on official page that only XP is supported. But I guess later MS OS can be used through generic VIA drivers...
BTW, I'm onto HT functionality myself (I've almost finished a DIY 4ch amp) but so far my crossover ambition is only focused on bass redirection (my loudspeakers in making are based on full range drivers).

If you just want a dac and are not powering a set of cans from it, why not a usb dac?

grubdac
bantam dac
amb gamma 1
amb gamma 2

listed from cheapest to most expensive.

nightanole, can you please comment on (some of) those dac's quality in general? That is my dilemma, how much difference should I expect from this kind of an upgrade...

 

[owenhamburg]

Go for an optical DAC connected to a sound card optical output. I have done this for around 100 Euro's, and you keep all the nasty Computer noises out of the speakers.

Any cheap Optical output Sound card is good enough, higher bit rates and 24 bits are nice to have but typically not much use if all you play is CD quality sources.

My cheapest DAC was 35 Euro (new) and my cheapest sound card was 6 Euro (second hand) on Ebay. The difference in the sound of modern DAC's is reasonably low. My zero and my ELV DAC's sound almost the same in my system playing just CD quality sources. Both DAC's are meny to be able to do a maximum of 24 bit 194 Khz.

Good luck

Owen

 

[kristleifur]

yes, I noticed on official page that only XP is supported. But I guess later MS OS can be used through generic VIA drivers...
BTW, I'm onto HT functionality myself (I've almost finished a DIY 4ch amp) but so far my crossover ambition is only focused on bass redirection (my loudspeakers in making are based on full range drivers).

nightanole, can you please comment on (some of) those dac's quality in general? That is my dilemma, how much difference should I expect from this kind of an upgrade...

I haven't heard any of them, but here are RMAA test results on the Bantam:
0.0120% THD+N, 0.0140% IMD+N.

The Gamma-1 has about 0.0010% THD+N, 0.0040% IMD+N. The Gamma-2 has even lower IMD+N, about 0.0032%. (Linking to AMB.org is broken - you can find the specifications there.)

The distortion specs of the Gamma DACs are really really good - very close to thousands-of-dollars pro audio cards.

 

[vann]

owenhamburg, optical would be great but I can't afford it now. dac with optical input and optical source is out of my budget.

The Gamma-1 has about 0.0010% THD+N, 0.0040% IMD+N. The Gamma-2 has even lower IMD+N, about 0.0032%.

Yes, I was looking at AMB γ2 and γ1 but $150-250 or $100-150 respectively is out of my reach. Esp combined with cost of the optical source, which I don't have.

At least my options are somewhat more clear now. Considering my current budget, I might try modding my audigy 2 zs with better opamp and also try DIY grubdac... as the price of the kit is quite low, just $35 (and ~$10 for case and shipping)


kristleifur, I see you have done amp6 and also own Needle FR speakers... how does the combo of 41Hz amp and full range drivers sound?
(I've almost finished amp9 and I'm in final preparations to make G Chang enclosures with Fostex FE207E)

 

[kristleifur]

Yes, I was looking at AMB γ2 and γ1 but $150-250 or $100-150 respectively is out of my reach. Esp combined with cost of the optical source, which I don't have.

Yeah, I can't afford them either - yet! ... Also, not that it really matters in this context, but I believe that both can take USB input as well as optical.

kristleifur, I see you have done amp6 and also own Needle FR speakers... how does the combo of 41Hz amp and full range drivers sound?
(I've almost finished amp9 and I'm in final preparations to make G Chang enclosures with Fostex FE207E)

It sounds ... Very Good!! I also have BIB speakers with 3" Omnes Audio drivers, powered with 41Hz Amp11 ... the sound is just amazing.

 

[nightanole]

Uh you can build a gamma 1 for under $100 if you just do usb and make the case yourself. Thats what i did. I then upgraded to a gamma 2 by gluing my gamma 1 back together. Soon i will make just a usb relay version of the gamma1 (only usb chip, no dac) to power the gamma2 so i can have one at work and one at home.

The grub dac might be worth looking into if you have even less money. Its basicaly a stripped gamma1. Its the same usb chip, but then it uses a different wolf dac then the gamm1, but both dac chips cost about the same, but the grub is a capless out so it may or maynot sound better.

 

[vann]

... it may or maynot sound better.

yes, that's what I was trying to find out without experimenting myself...

Though, with $35 per kit, I can't go too much wrong... If I decide so, I should be able to at least sell it for the price of the parts.

 

[nightanole]

yes, that's what I was trying to find out without experimenting myself...

Though, with $35 per kit, I can't go too much wrong... If I decide so, I should be able to at least sell it for the price of the parts.

If you tinker you can buffer the output using the same manor as the gamma 2. Then for like 50 bucks youd have a wolf dac with buffer.


The may or maynot sound better deal had to do with the caps in the audio line camps. The grub is capless, but on the other hand you should always have 1 cap between source and amp. So you can cap your dac or cap your amp.

i have both the grub and the gamma1 and cant tell the diff. They are very similar, its just the gamma1 is setup to be a all in one so its more expensive if you want all the features. I built the gamma2 and am still kicking myself for spending over 10 bucks for the 2 switches that change the rolloff and attenuation. ive never used them once.

 

[vann]

The grub is capless, but on the other hand you should always have 1 cap between source and amp. So you can cap your dac or cap your amp.

You lost me there... I thought that dac was made so it does not require an output cap. Or are you talking about some principle? (that I don't know of)

 

[kristleifur]

If you tinker you can buffer the output using the same manor as the gamma 2. Then for like 50 bucks youd have a wolf dac with buffer.


The may or maynot sound better deal had to do with the caps in the audio line camps. The grub is capless, but on the other hand you should always have 1 cap between source and amp. So you can cap your dac or cap your amp.

i have both the grub and the gamma1 and cant tell the diff. They are very similar, its just the gamma1 is setup to be a all in one so its more expensive if you want all the features. I built the gamma2 and am still kicking myself for spending over 10 bucks for the 2 switches that change the rolloff and attenuation. ive never used them once.

Good info nightanole!

p.s. - what rolloff / attenuation settings did you end up favoring?

 

[nightanole]

Same principle.

 

[vann]

The may or maynot sound better deal had to do with the caps in the audio line camps. The grub is capless, but on the other hand you should always have 1 cap between source and amp. So you can cap your dac or cap your amp.

Arr... maybe I've got it now. You mean, that even if grub is capless, my amp is still having it's input caps in the line of the signal... thus questioning the capless claim of the grub philosophy?

 

[nightanole]

Its always good to have the least amount of caps in the signal. However lets say you spent some good money (or just got a grub) so thats you have a symmetrical signal with no dc off set and no need of a cap (the only reason for a decoupling cap is to get rid of dc offset), perfect for everything right?
Until you hook it up to an amp/preamp that has the inputs floating at 2.5 volts (most tripath class T amps, and others that are buffered with an opamp).
This is why the amb and bantam dac have caps on the output, because their outputs float at 2.5v at idle.