Hi Guys,
Brand new here, awesome forum. Longtime member on Tapeheads and I know my way around tape related machines, not so much with CD players.
I would like some expert help or opinion please.
I got myself a beautiful X55ES CD player but I only hear static when playing a CD. The sound is more less White noise type.
The player very quickly reads any disc.
It jumps to any track very quickly.
When playing, the counter advances as it should (no skipping visible)
FF and REW works as it should as can be seen on the counter.
I tested every output: Line out, headphone, Optical out. Same results.
I checked for power supply voltages, all present.
I checked all voltages indicated in the SM and all present at ICs (IC051-RF AMP, IC101-F/T SERVO, IC 201 - DSP)
I also checked voltages at most other ICs and all present.
The Lens is clean.
The only deviation I found that where should be 5.1V as per the SM, I found 4.97V.
I also checked the two transistors (Q051, Q052) on the RF amp board.
The optical output is coming directly from the DSP chip, so I guess the problem is the DSP chip itself or before that.
I also have Technics SL-P777 and so I compared the signals and they look identical to me.
Out of curiosity, I tapped into the EFM signal before the DSP with my audio amp.
On my Technics: I heard the same kind of noise + some of the music
On the Sony: I only heard the noise
This leads me towards the F/T Servo chip...
I'm clueless, please help
Thank you,
Julius
EFM signal X55ES
RF signal X55ES
Optical out signal
Brand new here, awesome forum. Longtime member on Tapeheads and I know my way around tape related machines, not so much with CD players.
I would like some expert help or opinion please.
I got myself a beautiful X55ES CD player but I only hear static when playing a CD. The sound is more less White noise type.
The player very quickly reads any disc.
It jumps to any track very quickly.
When playing, the counter advances as it should (no skipping visible)
FF and REW works as it should as can be seen on the counter.
I tested every output: Line out, headphone, Optical out. Same results.
I checked for power supply voltages, all present.
I checked all voltages indicated in the SM and all present at ICs (IC051-RF AMP, IC101-F/T SERVO, IC 201 - DSP)
I also checked voltages at most other ICs and all present.
The Lens is clean.
The only deviation I found that where should be 5.1V as per the SM, I found 4.97V.
I also checked the two transistors (Q051, Q052) on the RF amp board.
The optical output is coming directly from the DSP chip, so I guess the problem is the DSP chip itself or before that.
I also have Technics SL-P777 and so I compared the signals and they look identical to me.
Out of curiosity, I tapped into the EFM signal before the DSP with my audio amp.
On my Technics: I heard the same kind of noise + some of the music
On the Sony: I only heard the noise
This leads me towards the F/T Servo chip...
I'm clueless, please help
Thank you,
Julius
EFM signal X55ES
RF signal X55ES
Optical out signal
I think there is a lot of thing mixed.
First, there must be another test point to see the RF signal, the real RF signal from the laser pickup, this signal you shows looks to be passed by the limitizer, excuseme if I don't express correctly, I don't speak english.
If the cd player jumps at any tracks, there is a reading problem. You must see the RF signal the "autentic" RF signal .
If you hear the noise in both cd players... I don't know what's happening.
Look if the Sony cd player has Elna Duorex II capacitors, it use to leaked liquid and provoke rust in the printed board.
Best regards
First, there must be another test point to see the RF signal, the real RF signal from the laser pickup, this signal you shows looks to be passed by the limitizer, excuseme if I don't express correctly, I don't speak english.
If the cd player jumps at any tracks, there is a reading problem. You must see the RF signal the "autentic" RF signal .
If you hear the noise in both cd players... I don't know what's happening.
Look if the Sony cd player has Elna Duorex II capacitors, it use to leaked liquid and provoke rust in the printed board.
Best regards
Thank you for your reply!
I will try to measure the proper RF signal, but my USB oscilloscope may not be up to the task. I know I should see an eye pattern somewhere.
The player doesn't jump at all. According to the display, it plays smoothly.
Reads the TOC very quickly from any disc and jusps to any track very quickly.
My Technics works perfectly. There is much noise + music in the EFM signal.
It's only noise in the Sony.
Thankfully no Duorex caps in this unit. Those are in the lower X33ES model.
I checked all the caps, I think I will start changing a few and see what happens.
If no luck, I will change the F/T servo chip.
Kind regards
I will try to measure the proper RF signal, but my USB oscilloscope may not be up to the task. I know I should see an eye pattern somewhere.
The player doesn't jump at all. According to the display, it plays smoothly.
Reads the TOC very quickly from any disc and jusps to any track very quickly.
My Technics works perfectly. There is much noise + music in the EFM signal.
It's only noise in the Sony.
Thankfully no Duorex caps in this unit. Those are in the lower X33ES model.
I checked all the caps, I think I will start changing a few and see what happens.
If no luck, I will change the F/T servo chip.
Kind regards
From what you describe, it definitely must be something in the path of the RF signal (might happen anywhere from output of the photo diodes until DSP/filter (don't have SM to look at, depends on circuit), it can be the first chip which the photo diode out is fed into and which contains the RF amp. The only way to find the culprit is get yourself (maybe borrowed?) a capable oscilloscope and look at the HF/RF signal, after RF amplifier. That's where you get eye pattern. EFM is an already digitally treated signal, it won't look like eye pattern. So, if you find a good looking HF signal, for example, problem might be in circuit which treats it to get EFM. On the other hand, if eye pattern looks off, problem might be RF amplifier or even the photo diodes? Or is that impossible, taking into account it seems to read (tracking is working, and TOC, for example). I admit my knowledge is a bit limited here... would a player with photo diodes problem / or RF amplifier problems, producing non-adequate eye pattern, even read TOC or track at all? probably not... so I guess, othger problems might be there...
If the player uses a separate DRAM chip then these can and do give trouble on occasion. Although often used by Philips and derivatives they can crop up in other machines.
CD player with distortion. laser?
CD player with distortion. laser?
Yes, would be great to know what is the connection between TOC reading and the actual playing music of the disc. I imagine all the TOC data is coming as an RF signal. The same path as the music would.
The player does everything as it should. Even if I knock the chassis, it will skip, mutes for a fracture of a second and then finds the track and keeps on playing.
Unfortunately there is no one I could borrow a proper scope of.
As for DRAM, not sure. There is one RAM chip (LC9600) connected to the SYSTEM CONTROL chip.
There is also a RAM section in the DSP chip:
This is the FOCUS/TRACKING/EFM COMPARATOR chip:
Here are some pictures from the SM in order as the signal goes from the pickup to the DSP: PICKUP -> IC051 -> IC101 -> IC201
Any suggestions are most welcome.
Thank you
The player does everything as it should. Even if I knock the chassis, it will skip, mutes for a fracture of a second and then finds the track and keeps on playing.
Unfortunately there is no one I could borrow a proper scope of.
As for DRAM, not sure. There is one RAM chip (LC9600) connected to the SYSTEM CONTROL chip.
There is also a RAM section in the DSP chip:
This is the FOCUS/TRACKING/EFM COMPARATOR chip:
Here are some pictures from the SM in order as the signal goes from the pickup to the DSP: PICKUP -> IC051 -> IC101 -> IC201
Any suggestions are most welcome.
Thank you
I would say the LC9600 needs to be swapped out, if only to eliminate it.
We changed quite a few of these D-RAM type IC's over the years and the symptoms were always noise on playback.
No guarantees of course but based on what you describe it has to be a major suspect.
We changed quite a few of these D-RAM type IC's over the years and the symptoms were always noise on playback.
No guarantees of course but based on what you describe it has to be a major suspect.
Thank you for your reply!
There might be something wrong indeed around the RAM area, although I don't yet understand what does it do with playback.
The chip called LC9600 is actually an LC3564PL-15. (somehow it's different in the schematic diagram vs the part list)
All the voltages are checking out, except for pin12 and pin19.
I should measure 0V, but I measure +4.6V. (Both PLAY and STOP modes)
This voltage potential is coming from the RAM chip. (I disconnected pin12&pin19 from the control chip and measured)
Thank you
There might be something wrong indeed around the RAM area, although I don't yet understand what does it do with playback.
The chip called LC9600 is actually an LC3564PL-15. (somehow it's different in the schematic diagram vs the part list)
All the voltages are checking out, except for pin12 and pin19.
I should measure 0V, but I measure +4.6V. (Both PLAY and STOP modes)
This voltage potential is coming from the RAM chip. (I disconnected pin12&pin19 from the control chip and measured)
Thank you
Yes, RAM would make sense: it is used to do the error correction - the uPC interpolates digital data with data from RAM in case the pickup delivers invalid data due to scratches or other problems. So, if the RAM has corruption, then this would generate digital noise.
If you measure voltages at RAM pins 12 and 19 which are different from service manual indications, then I guess this is a strong indicator that RAM has failed, no? If there's a chance of easily swapping this chip (imagine you had access to another sony based player with some other defect), or if it is obtainable, I'd simply swap it, you may save a lot of time trying to find other problems. And if it's not the RAM, you don't loose much.
If you measure voltages at RAM pins 12 and 19 which are different from service manual indications, then I guess this is a strong indicator that RAM has failed, no? If there's a chance of easily swapping this chip (imagine you had access to another sony based player with some other defect), or if it is obtainable, I'd simply swap it, you may save a lot of time trying to find other problems. And if it's not the RAM, you don't loose much.
The incorrect voltages may (or may not) be an issue... you just never know for certain with many service manuals but at face value, yes, they do seem to show a possible problem.
It's never the big chip as a general rule 😉 but I do know those RAM chips were trouble in quite a few different players.
They often were available under different numbers but functionally they were the same.
It's never the big chip as a general rule 😉 but I do know those RAM chips were trouble in quite a few different players.
They often were available under different numbers but functionally they were the same.
Hopefully its not the RAM, as I don't seem to find any available.
I found LC3564PL-12 for cheap on ebay, but the last 2 digit is 12 and not 15.
I know last digits after a dash doesn't always matter, but in this case it means something according to some datasheets I found: 12=120ns(max), 10=100ns(max) see below
Well, its in Japanese so its all Greek to me 🙂 (May not even understand it in English what all these nanoseconds are about)
I don't have another similar Sony unit, but I'm very close to get an X33ES for parts. Would be great to swap the pickup and see if that's the culprit.
Upon browsing through the SM for X33ES, I found that its mostly containing the same ICs. Where it matters to me, they are all the same.
In the X33ES, you are supposed to measure +4.7V on pin19 of the RAM chip....
Here is the relevant part of the X33ES SM:
Part numbers might seem different between the above pic (X33ES) and the one in post#8 showing my X55ES, but the they are the same chips to the last digit according to the part lists in the service manuals.
I know little about these, but I think these chips are configured with some passives hooked up to different pins. So maybe I have a passive blown around one of the ICs and its running now in a different config...?
I guess that's a possibility. Although it could also be an error in the SM
Cheers
I found LC3564PL-12 for cheap on ebay, but the last 2 digit is 12 and not 15.
I know last digits after a dash doesn't always matter, but in this case it means something according to some datasheets I found: 12=120ns(max), 10=100ns(max) see below
Well, its in Japanese so its all Greek to me 🙂 (May not even understand it in English what all these nanoseconds are about)
I don't have another similar Sony unit, but I'm very close to get an X33ES for parts. Would be great to swap the pickup and see if that's the culprit.
Upon browsing through the SM for X33ES, I found that its mostly containing the same ICs. Where it matters to me, they are all the same.
In the X33ES, you are supposed to measure +4.7V on pin19 of the RAM chip....
Here is the relevant part of the X33ES SM:
Part numbers might seem different between the above pic (X33ES) and the one in post#8 showing my X55ES, but the they are the same chips to the last digit according to the part lists in the service manuals.
I know little about these, but I think these chips are configured with some passives hooked up to different pins. So maybe I have a passive blown around one of the ICs and its running now in a different config...?
I guess that's a possibility. Although it could also be an error in the SM
Cheers
It is no good wishing it to be something else 😉 the RAM chips are known to fail and I have seen several with this fault in a workshop setting. Replacing them is an easy fix.
You have to try that chip first imo 🙂
You have to try that chip first imo 🙂
Just ordered the RAM chip, should arrive next week.
I'll swap it and will let you all know.
Cheers
I'll swap it and will let you all know.
Cheers
Postal services really slowed down, but the RAM chip finally arrived.
Unfortunately it hasn't sorted the problem. All the same.
I ordered now and RF amp IC (LF357N) and Focus/Servo IC as well (CXA1372Q).
Since it'll probably take weeks to arrive, if I'll have spare time I will go over all the passives thoroughly between the optical stage and DSP.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Unfortunately it hasn't sorted the problem. All the same.
I ordered now and RF amp IC (LF357N) and Focus/Servo IC as well (CXA1372Q).
Since it'll probably take weeks to arrive, if I'll have spare time I will go over all the passives thoroughly between the optical stage and DSP.
Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Sorry to hear the RAM didn't resolve the issue. It is not an issue issue to diagnose just via basic measurements I'm afraid.
Good luck anyhow
Good luck anyhow
Hi Guys,
I spent an entire day on the player, still nothing.
I checked every single cap (electrolytic, ceramic, mylar etc), all diodes, resistors. Also checked all the passives on the pickup itself (KSS-270A)
I replaced the EFM comparator chip to a new unit (CXA1372Q).
RF Amp IC and RAM chip is also new.
Everything is still the same 😡
Quick TOC and everything seems to be working but only static can be heard on all outputs.
If you have any idea, please share.
Thanks
I spent an entire day on the player, still nothing.
I checked every single cap (electrolytic, ceramic, mylar etc), all diodes, resistors. Also checked all the passives on the pickup itself (KSS-270A)
I replaced the EFM comparator chip to a new unit (CXA1372Q).
RF Amp IC and RAM chip is also new.
Everything is still the same 😡
Quick TOC and everything seems to be working but only static can be heard on all outputs.
If you have any idea, please share.
Thanks
It seems to be a one off type of fault. Not very scientific but all you can reasonably do is work forward from the audio stages and replace the DAC and then the DSP chip (I haven't got the manual in front of me).
You've done more than most in tracking this down
and I hope you can finally fix it.
You've done more than most in tracking this down
and I hope you can finally fix it.I think there are two or more different problems, besides if you have provoked any failure more.
The noise I think is due to Elna Duorex II capacitors, this capacitors are known for to spill electrolitic liquid in the board. The solution is to replace all this capacitors and wash the board with water and soap. Don't forget to retire the Memory Backup capacitor while you do it.
The other failure, the track skips failure, maybe is a laser failure, adjust failure, who knows. If you put a RF signal picture, it could help us a lot.
The noise I think is due to Elna Duorex II capacitors, this capacitors are known for to spill electrolitic liquid in the board. The solution is to replace all this capacitors and wash the board with water and soap. Don't forget to retire the Memory Backup capacitor while you do it.
The other failure, the track skips failure, maybe is a laser failure, adjust failure, who knows. If you put a RF signal picture, it could help us a lot.