So I need some help...
I am relativly inexpierience compared with some of you in this group so i am hoping to be enlightened.
I know all the rule I will probobly have to employ in the creation of my sonotubes. (i.e. 1/4 wavelength ect.)
However I still have a few questions.
1.) Can I make my sonotube shorter (i.e only 8 feet in length thus fitting in a normal room) and yet still be able to achive sound at around the 22Hz range by adding insulation and if so in what amount?
2.)I have seen various designs for using the sonotubes, and they vary on wether they point the magnet into the tube or up out of the tube thus pointing the woofer in. What are the advantages and disadvantages assosiated with either of these methods?
Thanks in advance.
Victor
For information purposes I will be making four tubes with eight inch peerless drivers whose Fs sits at 22hz. My objective is to get this base but inside a room whose ceiling is only 8 feet.
I am relativly inexpierience compared with some of you in this group so i am hoping to be enlightened.
I know all the rule I will probobly have to employ in the creation of my sonotubes. (i.e. 1/4 wavelength ect.)
However I still have a few questions.
1.) Can I make my sonotube shorter (i.e only 8 feet in length thus fitting in a normal room) and yet still be able to achive sound at around the 22Hz range by adding insulation and if so in what amount?
2.)I have seen various designs for using the sonotubes, and they vary on wether they point the magnet into the tube or up out of the tube thus pointing the woofer in. What are the advantages and disadvantages assosiated with either of these methods?
Thanks in advance.
Victor
For information purposes I will be making four tubes with eight inch peerless drivers whose Fs sits at 22hz. My objective is to get this base but inside a room whose ceiling is only 8 feet.
I need help too. I have 9' ceilings and have a 1100sq foot room that i need to fill with sound. I don't mind making sonotube's around the 8ft range, but I just don't know how to design them.
Is there anyone that can help us two newbies with some simple sonotube design and materials list? It really would be greatly appreciated. I've tried to read some speaker building books, but they are just beyond me. I guess I'm just a retard.
Someone please help!!!!
I'm thinking i want 2 of these sonotubes designed the same and place one on each side of my projector screen. I just don't have any idea where to start.
Is there anyone that can help us two newbies with some simple sonotube design and materials list? It really would be greatly appreciated. I've tried to read some speaker building books, but they are just beyond me. I guess I'm just a retard.
Someone please help!!!!
I'm thinking i want 2 of these sonotubes designed the same and place one on each side of my projector screen. I just don't have any idea where to start.
I saw these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3025871334&category=3275
and this is what all got my mind going. 🙂 I feel like I could make some look as pleasing as these tubes... i just need some help with the design part of it all.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3025871334&category=3275
and this is what all got my mind going. 🙂 I feel like I could make some look as pleasing as these tubes... i just need some help with the design part of it all.
I might be able to help with the Volume and Vent, but first you must tell me what driver you plan to use, also the total power you have available to drive them with.
I'd recommend NOT clicking on the link above - it looks like the seller in the linked auction may have "borrowed" somebody else's pictures by hotlinking to images he shouldn't have, and the owner of said images got his revenge by replacing them with pornography. Amusing in a way, but not what any of you folks would expect to find and certainly not something one would want to run across while in a work or family situation.
You can get into the ballpark using smaller drivers. Find a nice pair of 8" woofers with an Fs around 40hz, mount them firing up into a 6' long 8' sonotube, stuff to taste. I built a pair of TL subs this way and they sound great, they measur flat from 22hz up, -3db is at 18hz. I used a pair of ,now discontinued, alpine XR-8 drivers. You can get two TL's out of a 12' length of sonotube this way, they have a nice, non-intrusive footprint and are not too tall. Good luck.
TL DESIGN
Victor,
You wont need an 8 foot tube to achieve lo bass with that driver.
A 10 or 12 in. dia. tube should result in no more than 4 ft.
Here's how to calculate.
Using the Thiel/Small perameters of Sd=cone area in sq. inches plus Fs= free air resonance plus Qts= combination of electrical and mechanical Q's.
1st-devide the cross sectional area of the tube you have chosen by the cone area. Atl/Sd. (Atl=area of transmission line) 12 in. tube=113 sq.in.
2nd-multiply result by Qts.(this figure defines the stuffing density per cubic foot of acousta-stuf or long fiber wool you will need)
3rd-sq root the result.
4th-now multiply the result by .0745+1 (the density of air at sea level)
5th-sq root that result and save in memory.
6th-devide 1130(speed of sound in air) by your saved result. (this defines the speed of sound thru your tube)
7th-devide this result by Fs (in your case 22).
8th-multiply this result by 3 which will give you the length of the tube in inches.
These calculations take into account the drivers parameters and optomizes the enclosure for the driver chosen.
If you will advise me of the peerless model # and the inside dia. of the the tube you intend to use, I will be more than happy to run the calcs for you.
Good luck
Chuck
Victor,
You wont need an 8 foot tube to achieve lo bass with that driver.
A 10 or 12 in. dia. tube should result in no more than 4 ft.
Here's how to calculate.
Using the Thiel/Small perameters of Sd=cone area in sq. inches plus Fs= free air resonance plus Qts= combination of electrical and mechanical Q's.
1st-devide the cross sectional area of the tube you have chosen by the cone area. Atl/Sd. (Atl=area of transmission line) 12 in. tube=113 sq.in.
2nd-multiply result by Qts.(this figure defines the stuffing density per cubic foot of acousta-stuf or long fiber wool you will need)
3rd-sq root the result.
4th-now multiply the result by .0745+1 (the density of air at sea level)
5th-sq root that result and save in memory.
6th-devide 1130(speed of sound in air) by your saved result. (this defines the speed of sound thru your tube)
7th-devide this result by Fs (in your case 22).
8th-multiply this result by 3 which will give you the length of the tube in inches.
These calculations take into account the drivers parameters and optomizes the enclosure for the driver chosen.
If you will advise me of the peerless model # and the inside dia. of the the tube you intend to use, I will be more than happy to run the calcs for you.
Good luck
Chuck
thanks!!!
Chuck-
Thank you so much for you advise. I have actually built these guys and noticed that my 10 inch sonotubes at only ~6.5 ft were sounding like they were really down there. I am going to run your calcs to see how much I can minimize the length of the tubes by. Thanks for your help.
Could I ask where you have aquired your extensive knowledge base from? A reccomended reading source?
Thanks Again.
Brian
Chuck-
Thank you so much for you advise. I have actually built these guys and noticed that my 10 inch sonotubes at only ~6.5 ft were sounding like they were really down there. I am going to run your calcs to see how much I can minimize the length of the tubes by. Thanks for your help.
Could I ask where you have aquired your extensive knowledge base from? A reccomended reading source?
Thanks Again.
Brian
Chuck, I guess I will need your help
Chuck, when I run the calcs, I am off by an order of magnitude of like 3. Could you help me out? I picked these up from Madisound, and so these are the only specs i've got. Thanks, Brian
PEERLESS
831858 located at http://www.madisound.com/sale.html
Thanks again.
Chuck, when I run the calcs, I am off by an order of magnitude of like 3. Could you help me out? I picked these up from Madisound, and so these are the only specs i've got. Thanks, Brian
PEERLESS
831858 located at http://www.madisound.com/sale.html
Thanks again.
More info for Chuck
Oh and for the diameters.
I have access to 12 or 10 inch sonotube that I can have cut to any desired length proffesionally. Thanks Chuck.
Oh and for the diameters.
I have access to 12 or 10 inch sonotube that I can have cut to any desired length proffesionally. Thanks Chuck.
mod
I recant that last statement, I only have access to 10 inch. Or rather this is all i can build due to other limitations. Thanks.
I recant that last statement, I only have access to 10 inch. Or rather this is all i can build due to other limitations. Thanks.
TL Design
Brian,
I've been playing with TL designs for years now and have found 2 good sources for info are Vance Dickason's LOUD SPEAKER DESIGN COOKBOOK and Larry D. Sharp's QUICK AND EASY TRANSMISSION LINE SPEAKER DESIGN. Both are available from <www.partsexpress.com>
For your Peerless 8 inchers we will assume the cone area Sd is 35 sq in. as the web site you gave me doesn't specify it. If we're off by a sq. in or two it wont matter that much anyway.
Using a 10 in. tube with an Atl of 78.5 sq.in divided by Sd of 35 sq.in. equals 2.24 times Qts of .23 equals .516 sq. rooted =.718 (lbs of stuffing per cubic ft.) divided by .0745+1=10.64 sq.rooted=3.26.
Now we take the speed of sound in feet per second thru air 1130 and divide by 3.26=346(the speed of sound in feet per second thru .718 (pounds per cubic.foot of stuffing) Now we need to determine the length of the tube to propagate a 1/4 wavelength at Fs of 22 Hz. So we just divide 346 by 22=15.74 feet for 1 full wavelength. Divide by 4(for 1/4 wl)=3.93 feet times 12=47.2inches. Or shortcut simply mult. 15.74 times 3.
The total line length needs to be measured from the drivers voice coil to the tubes terminus so you will have to add about 2 inches to this result.
For a 12 inch tube you should get .862 lbs/cubic ft.stuffing and a line length of 43.5 inches.
Typically the larger tube will produce a fatter more full bass and the smaller one a leaner tighter bass. Either one should result in an F3 below 30 Hz. The Acousta-stuf should be distributed evenly thru-out the tube but not come in contact with the driver. Use something like 3M spray adhesive on tube walls and the stuffing will remain just where you place it.
You will want to mount the tube about 4 inches off the floor with legs terminating in a point which will penitrate the carpet and acoustically couple it to the hard surface underneath. Brass cones used for this purpose as well as Acousta-Stuf is available at the URL above. A cheap method I've used is simply running wood screws into the leg bottoms and cutting off the heads and filing them to a point. 3 legs are better than 4 for obvious reasons.
Any questions---you know how to contact me
Good luck
Chuck
Brian,
I've been playing with TL designs for years now and have found 2 good sources for info are Vance Dickason's LOUD SPEAKER DESIGN COOKBOOK and Larry D. Sharp's QUICK AND EASY TRANSMISSION LINE SPEAKER DESIGN. Both are available from <www.partsexpress.com>
For your Peerless 8 inchers we will assume the cone area Sd is 35 sq in. as the web site you gave me doesn't specify it. If we're off by a sq. in or two it wont matter that much anyway.
Using a 10 in. tube with an Atl of 78.5 sq.in divided by Sd of 35 sq.in. equals 2.24 times Qts of .23 equals .516 sq. rooted =.718 (lbs of stuffing per cubic ft.) divided by .0745+1=10.64 sq.rooted=3.26.
Now we take the speed of sound in feet per second thru air 1130 and divide by 3.26=346(the speed of sound in feet per second thru .718 (pounds per cubic.foot of stuffing) Now we need to determine the length of the tube to propagate a 1/4 wavelength at Fs of 22 Hz. So we just divide 346 by 22=15.74 feet for 1 full wavelength. Divide by 4(for 1/4 wl)=3.93 feet times 12=47.2inches. Or shortcut simply mult. 15.74 times 3.
The total line length needs to be measured from the drivers voice coil to the tubes terminus so you will have to add about 2 inches to this result.
For a 12 inch tube you should get .862 lbs/cubic ft.stuffing and a line length of 43.5 inches.
Typically the larger tube will produce a fatter more full bass and the smaller one a leaner tighter bass. Either one should result in an F3 below 30 Hz. The Acousta-stuf should be distributed evenly thru-out the tube but not come in contact with the driver. Use something like 3M spray adhesive on tube walls and the stuffing will remain just where you place it.
You will want to mount the tube about 4 inches off the floor with legs terminating in a point which will penitrate the carpet and acoustically couple it to the hard surface underneath. Brass cones used for this purpose as well as Acousta-Stuf is available at the URL above. A cheap method I've used is simply running wood screws into the leg bottoms and cutting off the heads and filing them to a point. 3 legs are better than 4 for obvious reasons.
Any questions---you know how to contact me
Good luck
Chuck
THANKS CHUCK!
Chuck,
I've ordered the loudspeaker cookbook and will order TL design when funds are available. (ah the poor student life!)
Your help is invaluable and much appreciated.
Just one question on those spikes, if I already had made an adaptor to elevate it 6 inches off ground and have a flat base what will the sound quality difference be?
More presisly I have a 1ft by 1ft square wood piece as the end of the tube with cutout in center. This is on four legs which are six inches long that attach to another square foot base without a cutout.
The spikes just seem a little more unstable.... for what tradoff in sound though?
Thanks again.
Victor
Chuck,
I've ordered the loudspeaker cookbook and will order TL design when funds are available. (ah the poor student life!)
Your help is invaluable and much appreciated.
Just one question on those spikes, if I already had made an adaptor to elevate it 6 inches off ground and have a flat base what will the sound quality difference be?
More presisly I have a 1ft by 1ft square wood piece as the end of the tube with cutout in center. This is on four legs which are six inches long that attach to another square foot base without a cutout.
The spikes just seem a little more unstable.... for what tradoff in sound though?
Thanks again.
Victor
Victor,
I would suggest you go ahead and use the base you've already built.
Listen to lots of music with good bass lines for several weeks especially noting transient responses like the leading edge of a stand up bass where the finger first releases the string. Once you've got a good sense of your TL's performance run 4 wood screws thru the corners of the bottom plate so they protrude about 1/2 inch downward. The screws will now penitrate the carpet and you can adjust them so that the TL is stable and does not rock back and forth in any direction. Carefully listen to the same music at the same volume levels and you will know why I recommended the use of spikes in the first place.
One last thing I forgot to include in my last message. The internal volume of the 10 inch TL is 2.154 cubic ft. which will require a total of 1.54 lbs. or 24.64 oz. of stuffing. This is critical so you will need a good tripple beam or accurate postal scale for this purpose.
Again, good luck
Let me know how it all turns out OK?
sounder@iwon.com
CHUCK
I would suggest you go ahead and use the base you've already built.
Listen to lots of music with good bass lines for several weeks especially noting transient responses like the leading edge of a stand up bass where the finger first releases the string. Once you've got a good sense of your TL's performance run 4 wood screws thru the corners of the bottom plate so they protrude about 1/2 inch downward. The screws will now penitrate the carpet and you can adjust them so that the TL is stable and does not rock back and forth in any direction. Carefully listen to the same music at the same volume levels and you will know why I recommended the use of spikes in the first place.
One last thing I forgot to include in my last message. The internal volume of the 10 inch TL is 2.154 cubic ft. which will require a total of 1.54 lbs. or 24.64 oz. of stuffing. This is critical so you will need a good tripple beam or accurate postal scale for this purpose.
Again, good luck
Let me know how it all turns out OK?
sounder@iwon.com
CHUCK
Will do
Will do Chuck,
My brother (Victor) and I are very lucky to have you giving us this technical advice. I'll try both like you suggest. Will post pictures in a week or so.
Thanks again,
Brian
Will do Chuck,
My brother (Victor) and I are very lucky to have you giving us this technical advice. I'll try both like you suggest. Will post pictures in a week or so.
Thanks again,
Brian
Re: THANKS CHUCK!
Victor,
The most valuable TL sources of info are my site (if i do say so myself) with both classical and modern desgn plus a whole bunch of projects, and on modern TL design, Martin King's site -- Martin provides his TL modeling software, and Bob Brines site where he goes into how to apply Martin's software.
With Martin's software you can accurately model the TLs performance before you build it.
dave
Victor,
The most valuable TL sources of info are my site (if i do say so myself) with both classical and modern desgn plus a whole bunch of projects, and on modern TL design, Martin King's site -- Martin provides his TL modeling software, and Bob Brines site where he goes into how to apply Martin's software.
With Martin's software you can accurately model the TLs performance before you build it.
dave
Chuck, how does one determine the cross-sectional sonotube area (Atl)? I tried to find a formula on google to no avail...
I may be using Quicktube instead of Sonotube as the latter is not available here (and Quicktube i.d.'s are often a good deal smaller than say the advertised 10 or 12", so I'd like to calculate the dimensions accurately). Thanks for all of the information you've provided! Jeff (about to try 2 Dynaudio 24W75's in 10" tubes)
I may be using Quicktube instead of Sonotube as the latter is not available here (and Quicktube i.d.'s are often a good deal smaller than say the advertised 10 or 12", so I'd like to calculate the dimensions accurately). Thanks for all of the information you've provided! Jeff (about to try 2 Dynaudio 24W75's in 10" tubes)
Atl Calc.
Accurately measure the outside circumference of your quik-tube by wrapping a tape measure arround it. Divide that measurment by PI to get the outside diameter. Now subtract 2/10 of an inch (the quik-tube wall thicknesses) to arrive at the inside dia. Divide this figure by 2 for radius of id. Then Atl= radius squared times pi.
Example: 10in. id divide by 2=5in. squared=25 times pi= 78.54 sq.inches.
Accurately measure the outside circumference of your quik-tube by wrapping a tape measure arround it. Divide that measurment by PI to get the outside diameter. Now subtract 2/10 of an inch (the quik-tube wall thicknesses) to arrive at the inside dia. Divide this figure by 2 for radius of id. Then Atl= radius squared times pi.
Example: 10in. id divide by 2=5in. squared=25 times pi= 78.54 sq.inches.
Re: TL Design
If I understand these calculations correctly, these will give a quarter wave TL. Right ? Am I also on the right track if I say that the El Pipo are probably full wave TL ? If so, except for the lenght of the 1/4 wave vs full wave TL which makes them probably more appealing for the significant other, what are the differences in term of bass extension and SPL ?
Also, what would the difference be in term of bass extension, SPL and "musicality" between a 1/4 TL and a traditional vented Sonotube ?
I am still in the research stage for my first Sonotube sub. This is going to be my 1st ever DIY project. It will be used with my modest (60 W) stereo system that is used for both listening to music and movies on DVDs.
As far as I can tell right now, I want a sub that is not boomy, that can sound right while listening to music and still have good bass extention for those LFEs in the movies.
I've already got a plate amp to power my sub and since my budget will most definitely be tight, I'll probably go with a 8 or 10 inch woofer. Two speakers that come to mind are the Apex Jr Super 8 8" woofer and the Canadian Loudspeaker Corporation MaxPerformance PE1045/8 10" driver.
Money wise, the drivers cost almost the same. But building a 1/4 wave TL is far less expensive the building a vented Sonotube enclosure. I might be temped to go the TL way but I'm afraid I'll be disapointed and I'll have to spend more money in order to build the vented sub.
Your comments would be greatly appreciated. 😎
Chuck Richey said:
If I understand these calculations correctly, these will give a quarter wave TL. Right ? Am I also on the right track if I say that the El Pipo are probably full wave TL ? If so, except for the lenght of the 1/4 wave vs full wave TL which makes them probably more appealing for the significant other, what are the differences in term of bass extension and SPL ?
Also, what would the difference be in term of bass extension, SPL and "musicality" between a 1/4 TL and a traditional vented Sonotube ?
I am still in the research stage for my first Sonotube sub. This is going to be my 1st ever DIY project. It will be used with my modest (60 W) stereo system that is used for both listening to music and movies on DVDs.
As far as I can tell right now, I want a sub that is not boomy, that can sound right while listening to music and still have good bass extention for those LFEs in the movies.
I've already got a plate amp to power my sub and since my budget will most definitely be tight, I'll probably go with a 8 or 10 inch woofer. Two speakers that come to mind are the Apex Jr Super 8 8" woofer and the Canadian Loudspeaker Corporation MaxPerformance PE1045/8 10" driver.
Money wise, the drivers cost almost the same. But building a 1/4 wave TL is far less expensive the building a vented Sonotube enclosure. I might be temped to go the TL way but I'm afraid I'll be disapointed and I'll have to spend more money in order to build the vented sub.
Your comments would be greatly appreciated. 😎
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