Without having what might be good specifications for a discontinued speaker, I'm playing Joe Detective.
The Old Pioneer K1VA8 went out of production at Pioneer.
Parts Express still has it on File:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...568&FTR=269-568&CFID=1070041&CFTOKEN=90160100
The cost of the item was $10.00.
A newer part with slightly larger dimensions but at the same price
and more realistic graphing and complete info ....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-010
... leads me to believe the older product (has a ring around the front for rear mounting to plastic (car speaker etc.) now has a different industrial flange also used for rear pressure mounts.
Can I bet on the new specs to be closer to reality? Just close-- no cigar.
These things cost 50 cents each at closeout. But I want to use the
BIB calculator to put them in a test box.
The big number difference is in the Vas-- practically non-existent on the 50 center discontinued ones.
Trying Pioneer plus the keyword data sheet didn't get me anything either.
The Old Pioneer K1VA8 went out of production at Pioneer.
Parts Express still has it on File:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...568&FTR=269-568&CFID=1070041&CFTOKEN=90160100
The cost of the item was $10.00.
A newer part with slightly larger dimensions but at the same price
and more realistic graphing and complete info ....
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-010
... leads me to believe the older product (has a ring around the front for rear mounting to plastic (car speaker etc.) now has a different industrial flange also used for rear pressure mounts.
Can I bet on the new specs to be closer to reality? Just close-- no cigar.
These things cost 50 cents each at closeout. But I want to use the
BIB calculator to put them in a test box.
The big number difference is in the Vas-- practically non-existent on the 50 center discontinued ones.
Trying Pioneer plus the keyword data sheet didn't get me anything either.
Godzilla said:
Yes I had recently seen that. My question was one of request for speculation on if the specifications as listed for the item could be even reasonably used for older item of which I have a bunch.
If I used the more complete number set from the newer Pioneer is it likely that I'd get a better build result since various of the numbers for the older Pioneer K1VA8 where simply missing at the Parts Express data sheets.
Example of the current $10 Pioneer:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/290-010z.txt
(contains a complete set of T/S params at the bottom
Example of the older $10 Pioneer K1VA8
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/269-568.pdf
(has only partial listing of T/S params and one -- the Vas -- which is extremely low.)
This is just a test build with a very inexpensive driver. My curiosity was piqued when a sample install yielded interesting results. If I can improve it with better entries into the calculator, that is my goal.
loninappleton said:
No 'practically' about it, zero means none, ergo it wasn't measured. Anyway, what's all that wrong about using the specs listed in the description? I mean what's measured is close enough to those, so it seems reasonable that Vas would be too.
GM
Re: Re: Some sample graphs, some big differences
Well, I've tried to be as thorough as possible with this and in the PE description a Vas of .08 was given. That .08 Vas is what I used in the
calculator.
So your suggestion (and I know it's only that) is to use the
Vas and so forth from the new replacement/similar product (?).
The resulting change might be small or large. I'm just not experienced enough with the calculator or specification swapping
to know. So I can go ahead and plug in the revised numbers and
see what happens. I suppose I could have done this by now but
with ou an advisory i wouldn't really know if anything was accomplished.
GM said:
Well, I've tried to be as thorough as possible with this and in the PE description a Vas of .08 was given. That .08 Vas is what I used in the
calculator.
So your suggestion (and I know it's only that) is to use the
Vas and so forth from the new replacement/similar product (?).
The resulting change might be small or large. I'm just not experienced enough with the calculator or specification swapping
to know. So I can go ahead and plug in the revised numbers and
see what happens. I suppose I could have done this by now but
with ou an advisory i wouldn't really know if anything was accomplished.
still playing around
That pesky Vas measurement in the new Pioneer (see above)
skewed the calculator.
If the original measurements gave a bungalow, the new figures give a McMansion.
So the specs given are still questionable.
Using the old Vas of .08 and the newer other numbers gave a slimmer and smaller cabinet which is another goal for this project.
I mixed and matched because the graph in the newer one appears to
represent the actual speaker output of 15,000 hz (shows a dropoff
above that) whereas the old 50 cent graph does not represent it accurately.
So I'm still playing around.
That pesky Vas measurement in the new Pioneer (see above)
skewed the calculator.
If the original measurements gave a bungalow, the new figures give a McMansion.
So the specs given are still questionable.
Using the old Vas of .08 and the newer other numbers gave a slimmer and smaller cabinet which is another goal for this project.
I mixed and matched because the graph in the newer one appears to
represent the actual speaker output of 15,000 hz (shows a dropoff
above that) whereas the old 50 cent graph does not represent it accurately.
So I'm still playing around.
>>> So I'm still playing around.
These are the perfect 'play around' drivers anyway. I hope you get good results. Please report back. Since hearing the TB 871 was discontinued maybe this driver can be used as a good bang for the buck. Good cheap full range drivers seem to be becoming less available.
These are the perfect 'play around' drivers anyway. I hope you get good results. Please report back. Since hearing the TB 871 was discontinued maybe this driver can be used as a good bang for the buck. Good cheap full range drivers seem to be becoming less available.
Hi,
The specs state 0.08cuft / 2.3L old, the new 0.31cuft / 8.8L .
The measured Vas is 3.4L, which far nearer the old version.
Interestingly MCM have some info on the "A11EC80-02F"
see part number 51-075 which indicates an Fs close to spec.
assume around 3L ?
🙂/sreten.
The specs state 0.08cuft / 2.3L old, the new 0.31cuft / 8.8L .
The measured Vas is 3.4L, which far nearer the old version.
Interestingly MCM have some info on the "A11EC80-02F"
see part number 51-075 which indicates an Fs close to spec.
assume around 3L ?
🙂/sreten.
I could live with that
sreten:
I'm confused. The Vas states 3.93. But you have found .31.
How did you do that? Was this on MCM?
On the internet search I did, I looked up the old production part number of 10-1028LA/XCN on the Pioneer K1VA8 but not the
newer Pioneer item.
This .31 would put the size back into the acceptable range.
I'll fire up the calculator again and see what it gives back.
sreten said:
sreten:
I'm confused. The Vas states 3.93. But you have found .31.
How did you do that? Was this on MCM?
On the internet search I did, I looked up the old production part number of 10-1028LA/XCN on the Pioneer K1VA8 but not the
newer Pioneer item.
This .31 would put the size back into the acceptable range.
I'll fire up the calculator again and see what it gives back.
Re: I could live with that
Whelp,
that .31 still gave a huge box.
I'm happy for construction purposes with a 6.5 x 9.5 x 32 in. inside
measure with a slant of about 28 in (rounding everything off for discussion' sake. It may be that the original spec. was in tolerance.
loninappleton said:
Whelp,
that .31 still gave a huge box.
I'm happy for construction purposes with a 6.5 x 9.5 x 32 in. inside
measure with a slant of about 28 in (rounding everything off for discussion' sake. It may be that the original spec. was in tolerance.
Godzilla said:
Jeff, thanks for the encouragement.
I was put off by these when first constructing a line array. The sound was unpleasant, they were obscenely heavy and my materials for the box were not good.
Starting over as a single driver build with these, I can lacquer them up,
put white dots on them and do all the modding I'm afraid to do
on $40 drivers. I still am skeptical about EnAble process as any value on drivers as small and stiff as these.
Plus they are shielded.
OT: I still have a pair of TB 871's if anyone is looking. Will consider a trade at 2 for one. (I just don't think anyone looks at 'for sale' much, though I think I put them in there.)
Re: Re: Re: Some sample graphs, some big differences
Hmm, I thought you were referring to the pdf with just a partial set of specs.
No, lacking any other data I'd use the Fs/Vas/Qts specs in the description since there's nothing to indicate the A11 is its successor.
Really, if it were me and wasn't going to measure its specs I'd just build something that I was confident was a bit too large and adjust it to suit like I did pre-T/S. Making it smaller is easy, but not so much when larger is called for.
GM
loninappleton said:
Hmm, I thought you were referring to the pdf with just a partial set of specs.
No, lacking any other data I'd use the Fs/Vas/Qts specs in the description since there's nothing to indicate the A11 is its successor.
Really, if it were me and wasn't going to measure its specs I'd just build something that I was confident was a bit too large and adjust it to suit like I did pre-T/S. Making it smaller is easy, but not so much when larger is called for.
GM
if someone sends me one I will measure it for them. If you want the most accurate method I would need to construct a small enclosure of known volume, otherwise I would just use the delta mass method. I can also give the frequency response, phase, etc.
pjpoes said:
Thanks to all who answered.
pjpoes: Quite frankly these 50 cent wonders aren't worth sending around for measurements but the offer is greatly appreciated.
GM: I am settled on using the specifications from the original since the
size given even with the miniscule Vas looks to be about the size that I'm comfortable with. I will use the largest of the measures from those figures.
Hi,
Though why you would take any notice of this is beyond me.
The Fs is stated as 70Hz but measures 109Hz.
Measured Vas is 3.4L, 0.12cuft.
🙂/sreten.
I finally found the correct spelling of minuscule.
😎
Yesterday I wanted to find a plain board I could cut down to make some end panels for this. The pine around here is all crap-- though I did not go to a real umber yard. Real lumber yards these days cater to
business.
I did manage to find a couple more butcher black shelves at $5 each
which didn't look too bad. Working with smaller measurements I'll be putting the new BIB on a small stand rather than stand alone. And in this way I can get it tight to the wall around base board heating.
Maybe the Fall selling season will show a nice reasonably priced 5 incher.
😎
Yesterday I wanted to find a plain board I could cut down to make some end panels for this. The pine around here is all crap-- though I did not go to a real umber yard. Real lumber yards these days cater to
business.
I did manage to find a couple more butcher black shelves at $5 each
which didn't look too bad. Working with smaller measurements I'll be putting the new BIB on a small stand rather than stand alone. And in this way I can get it tight to the wall around base board heating.
Maybe the Fall selling season will show a nice reasonably priced 5 incher.
Everyone's local area will produce different result, but out here in the sticks:
I read about all of the guys that are building speakers out of dimentional lumber, particularly pine. So, I went down to Lowe's and looked through their stock of clear pine boards. I went through 20 some 10" boards without finding a single one straight enough to use as a baffle piece. Almost all of them had bark on one or both edges. They didn't have any Douglass Fir boards in 10", but the 8"ers wheren't much better than the pine boards. Real lumber yards have construction grade lumber only. Every board I looked at was full of knots and bark, and most were twisted like a pretzel.
There is a national chain in Little Rock called Hogen Hardwoods. They have real furniture grade lumber in more species than you can count. Two problems: You will pay through the nose for this stuff, and most of it is 4/4 rough cut, so if you don't have a planer, you are SOL.
Plywood is the same story. Pine plywood from a lumber yard is worthless for speaker building, or much else for that mater. Lowe's and HD do have an enhanced A/C plywood that is 9 ply rather than the normal 7 ply for 18mm. The A side is paintable. The C side does have some open knots, but there seem to be very few voids. I am using a lot of this stuff now. Hogan does have 12mm,18mm and I think 25mm Baltic Birch. But when you guys are discussing $10 drivers, BB is a wild extravagance.
Then there is MDF. Always flat and void free....
Bob
I read about all of the guys that are building speakers out of dimentional lumber, particularly pine. So, I went down to Lowe's and looked through their stock of clear pine boards. I went through 20 some 10" boards without finding a single one straight enough to use as a baffle piece. Almost all of them had bark on one or both edges. They didn't have any Douglass Fir boards in 10", but the 8"ers wheren't much better than the pine boards. Real lumber yards have construction grade lumber only. Every board I looked at was full of knots and bark, and most were twisted like a pretzel.
There is a national chain in Little Rock called Hogen Hardwoods. They have real furniture grade lumber in more species than you can count. Two problems: You will pay through the nose for this stuff, and most of it is 4/4 rough cut, so if you don't have a planer, you are SOL.
Plywood is the same story. Pine plywood from a lumber yard is worthless for speaker building, or much else for that mater. Lowe's and HD do have an enhanced A/C plywood that is 9 ply rather than the normal 7 ply for 18mm. The A side is paintable. The C side does have some open knots, but there seem to be very few voids. I am using a lot of this stuff now. Hogan does have 12mm,18mm and I think 25mm Baltic Birch. But when you guys are discussing $10 drivers, BB is a wild extravagance.
Then there is MDF. Always flat and void free....
Bob
That's the nice thing about these glue up butcher block style pieces designed for utility shelving. They are straight and no twists. Most of them have that knotty piney woodsy look and finding ones that are
all one shade is tricky.
I made my first BIB with that stuff-- a floorstander.
As this build (of one) I'm making for the Pioneer gets done, I think the box will come in handy for other things. The big difference is the length. This one will sit on a small stand. The insides are left-overs.
Other thing that might work is a cut-to-size MLTL. But I have no experience with MJK's programs nor mathcad.
all one shade is tricky.
I made my first BIB with that stuff-- a floorstander.
As this build (of one) I'm making for the Pioneer gets done, I think the box will come in handy for other things. The big difference is the length. This one will sit on a small stand. The insides are left-overs.
Other thing that might work is a cut-to-size MLTL. But I have no experience with MJK's programs nor mathcad.
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