Ok but at which reference level?
I suppose from your response you talk about professional control room. And that you mixed some materials.
If so you may have witness that depending of the level your mix are poor in bass or too bass heavy...
From my experience (as an audio engineer/mixer) straigth/flat response is a no no at low spl levels ( below 83/85dbspl rms which is considered to be loud for most amateur). The louder you go things are differents.
Ever heard of B&K in house curves?
That said a target of flat response as a basis for applying house curve is a good practice in my view ( and how i've seen studio monitors to be calibrate... but flat after calibration: never they are always downward tilted as Ernperkins pointed in previous post).
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Nope... I'm talking about sitting in my client's listening rooms.
Whatever mix the engineers put on a piece of music is highly variable and likely to confuse if you judge by a single song or album... you need to listen for a few weeks to really know how happy you are with your system.
Mostly I get called in after A) some failure has occurred or B) some wayward tinkering has occurred. My job is to straighten out the mess and I usually leave people with a more or less flat frequency response, in their listening area, so that the mix on their sources governs what they hear. So far, nobody has complained.
Or to put it another way ... the system should have no voice of it's own. It should get out of the way and let people hear their recordings as recorded.
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But they ( your client or freelance) may have corrected the response once their first mix being rejected( or corrected) by mastering engineer.
Been there...
If i understand well your client are professional. If not they paid you for a service and may find you are 'right' as they paid for a service... even if you are wrong.
Then if you never mixed something make the test by yourself: there is some multi track materials availlable from 'mixing contest' all over the web.
Try to mix from a flat speaker at 75db spl rms then at 90dbspl and compare results.
Been there...
If i understand well your client are professional. If not they paid you for a service and may find you are 'right' as they paid for a service... even if you are wrong.
Then if you never mixed something make the test by yourself: there is some multi track materials availlable from 'mixing contest' all over the web.
Try to mix from a flat speaker at 75db spl rms then at 90dbspl and compare results.
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Nope you are still barking up the wrong tree, my friend.
I'm talking about people's home setups... not studios or labs... the equipment in the end user's listening rooms, at home.
I see your point Douglas.
But what is true to produce music is not false once it land in the end user reproducing chain: both see the same physical/physiological/psychoacoustic law.
There is reason there is some level dependant 'compensation eq' implemented in digital player soft ( Jriver for example).
But what is true to produce music is not false once it land in the end user reproducing chain: both see the same physical/physiological/psychoacoustic law.
There is reason there is some level dependant 'compensation eq' implemented in digital player soft ( Jriver for example).
Yes, but in very different environments.
Lets take a simple example...
You have a trio, bass, organ and drums. This pretty much covers the spectrum for us. Now you mix that with your descending curve to get it just the way you want it, in the studio.
It gets pressed to a CD.
Now in the end user's living room you have a setup with a descending curve again ...
Now you have double the effect and guess what... it's going to sound "off" in some way or another.
If, on the other hand, I leave your mixing alone and give the end user a flat response, they now end up with your descending response as a fact of the recording... which is now heard as you recorded it.
This is, I think, one of the problems with the audio thing right now... everyone seems to be forgetting that every listener is at the mercy of their sources (recordings).
Whatever we do to our own systems beyond trying to get accurate reproduction is actually defeating the entire goal of mixing music in the studio... YOU have control of that, not your listeners.
I actually find myself wishing I had a dollar for every time an "audiophile" has spent thousands of dollars on their systems trying to fix what turns out to be a bad mix on his record. I've even seen these guys get all carried away because of a single song that didn't play as they expected.
I do however have the dollars for every time that's gone wrong among my clients.
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Doesn't make sense : If the studios speakers have a descending curve, and the home speakers have a similar descending curve then the CD would sound how it did at the studio.
Yes it does make sense ...
Read what I wrote: "Now you mix that with your descending curve"
The curve is right in the recording, at least for the purposes of this illustration.
Maybe consider things a bit differently.
If you took an acoustic instrument that was directional in the top octaves but Omni in the bottom octaves , maybe a cello would fit the bill ? (The wavelengths smaller than the body would be more directional whereas the bass notes would be Omni)
What you are suggesting is that if someone played a cello in my listening room that the cello should have its treble boosted and its low bass / mids cut so that it sounds 'how it was intended' ?
I think you need to give more attention to power response and less to frequency response.
Look up the 'circle of confusion' I think you'll find it interesting.
Rob.
If you took an acoustic instrument that was directional in the top octaves but Omni in the bottom octaves , maybe a cello would fit the bill ? (The wavelengths smaller than the body would be more directional whereas the bass notes would be Omni)
What you are suggesting is that if someone played a cello in my listening room that the cello should have its treble boosted and its low bass / mids cut so that it sounds 'how it was intended' ?
I think you need to give more attention to power response and less to frequency response.
Look up the 'circle of confusion' I think you'll find it interesting.
Rob.
C'mon guys ... try to link up the chain between performance, recording, mixing, mastering, pressing and reproduction.
By the time it comes out of your speakers, it rarely bears any real resemblance to the original performance. Tampering with frequency response curves in your home setup only makes that worse.
By the time it comes out of your speakers, it rarely bears any real resemblance to the original performance. Tampering with frequency response curves in your home setup only makes that worse.
Yes because the descending curve is not the situation of riaa/ reverse riaa.
The descending curve is to compensate for the interface between speaker and room.
Wether it is in studio or domestic room doesn't matter ( and to be fair with you Douglas some domestic listening environnement are WAY better than some control room but that is a different matter) and you won't have double the effect.
You compensate for the transducer issues interfacing within it's own environnement.
Anyway if it rock your boat to have a flat fr ( and the one of your client) all is well. But this is not what the majority of people ( statistically) prefer.
And not the way we try to work ( as engineer).
Your example of people waiting for things to sound as they expect is the one which make me think that these people should go at concert to listen to real events ( being 'real' instruments, amplified music or even dj sets) to have a reference about how things sound 'for real'.
There is some bad recorded/mixed/ mastered music but this is not so often ( it is debatable for mastering practice this day - loudness war- but there is an answer to that: go shopping some vinyls as the support can't physically stand too much compression).
If audiophile are not happy with what they listen to, they just have to buy a pair of microphone preamp and AD and start to make their own recording. Then they'll have to deal with artists wishes, Artistic Director wishes, technical constraints and all... and let's hear the outcome!
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When people mix on speakers on a shelf on a desk maybe a metre away from their ears that have a flat response, do you realise that the same speakers used in a domestic hifi setting will have a very different response at listening position ?
I'm not confused
I'm suggesting that if someone played a cello between the speakers in my listening area, and I recorded it. I will need a flat frequency response to reproduce it, accurately. If I boost the treble or cut the bass, it's not going to sound the same at all.
Okay, maybe I am confused ... 'cause I'm having a hard time understanding why this isn't obvious to you.
Maybe a picture will help... (See below)...
If you record something with +6db of bass boost (which is not uncommon) and then play it back with +6db of bass boost on your system... how much bass boost does that give you?
Correct, it gives you 12db ... which is NOT how it was intended.
Now if you play it back with a flat response, 0db of boost... what do you get?
Correct, you get the 6db from the source recording as it was intended.
Get it now?
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6dB plus 6dB equals 9dB.
I'm not talking about having 'bass boost' on a system. If you measure the cello outside and then re measure in the listening room the frequency responses will be different due to the room loading the bass / low mids, and the cellos power response / directionality.
What you are suggesting is that the cello would sound better in the listening room if we boosted it's treble, cut its bass to measure the same as it did outside.
I'm suggesting it would sound worse.
I'm not talking about having 'bass boost' on a system. If you measure the cello outside and then re measure in the listening room the frequency responses will be different due to the room loading the bass / low mids, and the cellos power response / directionality.
What you are suggesting is that the cello would sound better in the listening room if we boosted it's treble, cut its bass to measure the same as it did outside.
I'm suggesting it would sound worse.
I know you're not interested in anything but a flat line on a screen but wrt 'interpretation' play a song you know well on your home system and take a video of it playing from your listening position.
Then play the video back with some decent headphones. You will hear the room effects on headphones, it will sound nothing like what you heard sitting there.
Then play the video back with some decent headphones. You will hear the room effects on headphones, it will sound nothing like what you heard sitting there.
I'm not confused
I'm suggesting that if someone played a cello between the speakers in my listening area, and I recorded it. I will need a flat frequency response to reproduce it, accurately. If I boost the treble or cut the bass, it's not going to sound the same at all.
Get it now?
This is true from the equipment ( let's say everyting line level). Not from the point of view of loudspeaker/room interface.
I'll take your example and go back to vinyl: is what is encoded thru the vinyl the 'real message' or does it needs an inverse riaa to sound like it was intended?
You'll need to compensate for the environnement ( the disc cutter with it's riaa curve) to have what the engineer produced...
Same thing happen within our speakers/room.
Robwells could you elaborate on +6+6db=9db as i don't follow you... edit:are you comparing Voltage and radiated power? If that is the case they don't follow same rules and shoudn't be mixed together as they are different 'things' ( voltage being 20log, radiated power 10log) but using same units (db) . In that case please specify by using dbspl and dbu,V or v to avoid confusion).
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