In your imagination. That is unless you can quote what I asked you to quote earlier.
My criteria for selecting an amp is which one do I feel happiest listening to over an extended period, and I think if you decide on your choice of amp for any other reason then you really are missing the point.
Shoog
Shoog
I've tried your method. What is my method of choosing amp and have you tried it?
As for the terminology, what is your definition of hi-fi in audio electronics? We could be talking about two different things or not, so it needs a clarification. I would appreciate your answer.
No, but I can direct you to some reading that will help your decision making.
https://www.dhtrob.com/overige/tubefriendly_lsp_en.php
I am still not a deletionist
I am not the first one to remove anything (except outright vandalism). I just thought that an idea that sounds true may be well argumented in some already published scientific paper. That would be a nice addition. I wish I knew better.
I am not the first one to remove anything (except outright vandalism). I just thought that an idea that sounds true may be well argumented in some already published scientific paper. That would be a nice addition. I wish I knew better.
Funny that posters must time travel back to 1973 to find an Engineer stating that "tubes are better than SS".
Wonder why all PRO recording equipment, the *source* of what we'll later try to reproduce through either of the Technologies, is SS , and has been so for decades.
Unless *this* is still the yardstick to which everything else must be compared to:
Wonder why all PRO recording equipment, the *source* of what we'll later try to reproduce through either of the Technologies, is SS , and has been so for decades.
Unless *this* is still the yardstick to which everything else must be compared to:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Have you ever considered how large and expensive and hot a comparable valve studio mixing desk would be, and how high the maintenance budget would be. i think you are mis-attributing cause and effect here.
Here is an interesting factoid, one of the best recording I have is of the Fantastic Peddlers which would have been recorded on a simple valve mixing desk using condenser mikes. The advent of transistors saw the quality of recording take a nose dive for decades and only make significant strides when studios started to go digital in the early eighties.
I think your memory is a little rose tinted.
Shoog
Here is an interesting article describing how one audio fan ended up at the same end point as myself - Open Baffle speakers representing the pinnacle of speaker design:
6moons audio reviews: A 4-year journey into open baffles with widebanders
Get one of these right and you can start to think about using affordable flea powered SE amps and not overstretching them into distortion. Think about a 5watt amp been more than enough for a good OB speaker.
Shoog
6moons audio reviews: A 4-year journey into open baffles with widebanders
Get one of these right and you can start to think about using affordable flea powered SE amps and not overstretching them into distortion. Think about a 5watt amp been more than enough for a good OB speaker.
Shoog
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You are free to think all you want.
I suppose that's your opinion. What about objective data that can be shared on internet forum? Got any?
Is that also your opinion?
The one thing I can conclude at this stage is I don't value Evenharmonics opinion one tiny bit. But as he would say, we are all free to our own opinions.
Shoog
Shoog
I'm not sure if you care or not but the guy did his amp comparison like this, "My plan was to allow my two ten-inch plate-amp powered horn and corner-loaded subwoofers to handle any bass below 100Hz. Surprisingly, I was not particularly impressed with either the Lowther DX-3 or DX-4 in the JE Labs OB. Yes they sounded good but there wasn’t the wholesale sonic transformation several open baffle advocates described. With nothing to lose and just for the hell of it, I finally stuck the big PM2MKIIs on these baffles. Wow! It was as if someone had blown the back of my 13’ wide by 20’ long by 8½’ high listening room into my neighbor’s yard."
No level matching, no quick switching back and forth, no bias controlling of any sort was mentioned. I would take results from such casual auditioning with grain of salt.
He even acknowledges and praised the superiority of horn loaded compression drivers. The downside of compression/horn speakers is the size, which he again acknowledges, "Few of us had/have room for such beasts". Open baffle is the compromise step down from compression/horn speakers for the sake of smaller speakers, not a technical "pinnacle of speaker design".
I still don't know what your definition of hi-fi is. Based on your posts so far, it seems like something different from what my understanding of hi-fi is in audio electronics. Why won't you disclose your definition of it? What have you got to hide?
Shoog, we're in a losing battle here
I'm afraid we are going to lose a battle with Evenharmonics here. It's not because we lack the facts on our side. It's because when those pesky facts pop up they are now "our opinions". I have the same feeling as you as to how Evenharmonics is behaving and to his intellectual honesty. He has not responded even once to the excellent reference article on the distortion and noise products of common tube and ss devices.
Again, it goes back to the fact that for equivalent circuits of tube and ss devices there will be less distortion and/or noise in the tube circuits. You can reduce the lower order harmonic distortion products in SS with global feedback, but at the expense of higher order odd harmonics. So what mostly we are talking in the distinctive sound of SS or VT has to do with the higher order odd harmonic distortion in SS due to the general use of higher levels of Global Feedback. That, and a lower damping factor in VT circuits. At least the damping factor can be accommodated by what you are suggesting in speakers.
So in spite of Evenharmonics' moniker it appears he must really enjoy odd harmonics or else he wouldn't be choosing an implemention that, in general, exacerbates that. Or else he's in denial and being obstinate. Nah, couldn't be.
I'm afraid we are going to lose a battle with Evenharmonics here. It's not because we lack the facts on our side. It's because when those pesky facts pop up they are now "our opinions". I have the same feeling as you as to how Evenharmonics is behaving and to his intellectual honesty. He has not responded even once to the excellent reference article on the distortion and noise products of common tube and ss devices.
Again, it goes back to the fact that for equivalent circuits of tube and ss devices there will be less distortion and/or noise in the tube circuits. You can reduce the lower order harmonic distortion products in SS with global feedback, but at the expense of higher order odd harmonics. So what mostly we are talking in the distinctive sound of SS or VT has to do with the higher order odd harmonic distortion in SS due to the general use of higher levels of Global Feedback. That, and a lower damping factor in VT circuits. At least the damping factor can be accommodated by what you are suggesting in speakers.
So in spite of Evenharmonics' moniker it appears he must really enjoy odd harmonics or else he wouldn't be choosing an implemention that, in general, exacerbates that. Or else he's in denial and being obstinate. Nah, couldn't be.
Here is SS amp's hamonics measurement.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Here is tube amp's hamonics measurement.
So you were saying something about tube vs. SS amp harmonics, eh. 🙄
Once again, I asked you to quote my post that falls into "not being able to identify what they DONT know". You still haven't. Perhaps because you are
When I referred to you not knowing what you did not know I did not backtrack because it was referring to you saying very early in the discussion that tubes were no longer predominant because it was ancient technology and that's all people knew about way back when. That was just wrong and it was pointed out to you by others via all the arguments given to you. There's no reason to rehash your incorrect assumption because you still haven't accepted the facts presented by myself and others.
This is a DIY site. Everyone giving arguments here, including myself, was referring implicitly to common devices that a diyer can include in their own circuits. Also every argument given here also has a statistical argument in which commonly used devices and circuits are compared. With every example of "equivalent" circuits using both types of devices then there is a statistical result that the analogous circuit with a VT device will operate with lower distortion/noise than the SS device.
I can't even read what type of VT device you included there with the much higher distortion products than the X-600. Also, the Pass Labs x-600 costs about $16000. One can pick special examples for either type of topology but it proves very little to do that. One can pick special examples in every facet of both technology and science to try to disprove well known things. People try to do that all the time just because they do not like reality. It's called denial. (not the river in Egypt) Ever notice how often that's done to disprove evolution? You have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, not apples to oranges.
This is a DIY site. Everyone giving arguments here, including myself, was referring implicitly to common devices that a diyer can include in their own circuits. Also every argument given here also has a statistical argument in which commonly used devices and circuits are compared. With every example of "equivalent" circuits using both types of devices then there is a statistical result that the analogous circuit with a VT device will operate with lower distortion/noise than the SS device.
I can't even read what type of VT device you included there with the much higher distortion products than the X-600. Also, the Pass Labs x-600 costs about $16000. One can pick special examples for either type of topology but it proves very little to do that. One can pick special examples in every facet of both technology and science to try to disprove well known things. People try to do that all the time just because they do not like reality. It's called denial. (not the river in Egypt) Ever notice how often that's done to disprove evolution? You have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, not apples to oranges.
Start quoting specific posts and then we will have productive debate. Until then, enjoy talking to yourself about your own imaginary events.
I actually agree with you on this. Tell that to Shoog also.
The nice thing about making a fool of yourself spewing your beliefs here, is that you may have an opportunity to learn some serious sh*t.
Tubes vs. trannys could be like a Trump rally... I can't resist...
(Not that I'd ever vote for Trump)
Until an amp is pushed into significant distortion (clipping), tubes vs. transistors can sound VERY similar. In a low feedback (0 - 12dB) tube amp, the harmonic distortion spectrum shape is better, both in and out of clipping (less extension from the fundamental), but then you have poor damping of the speaker resonance (often around 60HZ), because of the amp providing a large source impedance feeding the speaker (maybe 1-8 ohms). This is often why people describe tubes as sounding warmer. Not only does the woofer resonate, but it's rise in impedance at its resonance usually causes the gain of the tube amp to increase a bit. A high feedback transistor amp (virtually all of them) will have an output impedance that is below 1/10 of an ohm or lower, which damps speaker resonances pretty well. The speaker resonance is effectively forced to not exist by the amp. Another issue with low feedback tube amps is that the higher output impedance (1 - 8 ohms ?) will un-calibrate a passive crossover network that is in most speaker systems. It may be a crap shoot whether it makes the speaker sound better with a given set of other variables.
One way to get a touch of the tube euphonics (more natural distortion spectrum) is to put one single ended tube (such as a 6SN7) in the preamp or poweramp, outside of any feedback loop, while the rest of the amp system is solid state. Since a tube outside of a feedback loop is likely to have more distortion than the high feedback solid state circuits, before clipping, it's distortion should dominate.
Tube distortion is usually a more even mix of even and odd harmonic distortion products, so distort more like the human ear, so more natural sounding and less annoying. Less fatigue over time. The downside is that if it's allowed to be excessive from a bad design (too much plate load distortion in SE circuits), I.M. distortion is likely to be a problem, which will make a solo artist sound better in some cases, but will sound bad with anything resembling choral music, where difference frequency generation will cause an audible warble that isn't likely pleasant or musically related.
Since my speakers are tri-amp'd, I don't have room for all the tube amps I would need, so I went solid state. Since my poweramps are all over 100watts per frequency band, clipping is never going to be an issue for me. If I was talking guitar amps (I've researched, designed and built many) I'd definitely say go with tubes. But for Hi-Fi, many solid state amps and preamps sound VERY good to my ear.
The weakest link in most Hi-Fi systems is IMO the speakers, the way the speakers interact with room acoustics, poor or no tone controls, and the quality of the program material. Those are the areas where you can make much bigger improvements. I hope this helps.
Tubes vs. trannys could be like a Trump rally... I can't resist...
(Not that I'd ever vote for Trump)
Until an amp is pushed into significant distortion (clipping), tubes vs. transistors can sound VERY similar. In a low feedback (0 - 12dB) tube amp, the harmonic distortion spectrum shape is better, both in and out of clipping (less extension from the fundamental), but then you have poor damping of the speaker resonance (often around 60HZ), because of the amp providing a large source impedance feeding the speaker (maybe 1-8 ohms). This is often why people describe tubes as sounding warmer. Not only does the woofer resonate, but it's rise in impedance at its resonance usually causes the gain of the tube amp to increase a bit. A high feedback transistor amp (virtually all of them) will have an output impedance that is below 1/10 of an ohm or lower, which damps speaker resonances pretty well. The speaker resonance is effectively forced to not exist by the amp. Another issue with low feedback tube amps is that the higher output impedance (1 - 8 ohms ?) will un-calibrate a passive crossover network that is in most speaker systems. It may be a crap shoot whether it makes the speaker sound better with a given set of other variables.
One way to get a touch of the tube euphonics (more natural distortion spectrum) is to put one single ended tube (such as a 6SN7) in the preamp or poweramp, outside of any feedback loop, while the rest of the amp system is solid state. Since a tube outside of a feedback loop is likely to have more distortion than the high feedback solid state circuits, before clipping, it's distortion should dominate.
Tube distortion is usually a more even mix of even and odd harmonic distortion products, so distort more like the human ear, so more natural sounding and less annoying. Less fatigue over time. The downside is that if it's allowed to be excessive from a bad design (too much plate load distortion in SE circuits), I.M. distortion is likely to be a problem, which will make a solo artist sound better in some cases, but will sound bad with anything resembling choral music, where difference frequency generation will cause an audible warble that isn't likely pleasant or musically related.
Since my speakers are tri-amp'd, I don't have room for all the tube amps I would need, so I went solid state. Since my poweramps are all over 100watts per frequency band, clipping is never going to be an issue for me. If I was talking guitar amps (I've researched, designed and built many) I'd definitely say go with tubes. But for Hi-Fi, many solid state amps and preamps sound VERY good to my ear.
The weakest link in most Hi-Fi systems is IMO the speakers, the way the speakers interact with room acoustics, poor or no tone controls, and the quality of the program material. Those are the areas where you can make much bigger improvements. I hope this helps.
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